Badass Versus Thread

[Blastedspider]

She didn't; Caster Cu supported her in-game. And if you go by the anime, a full-power LC would be the full castle as shown in Babylonia, not the single wall from First Order.

I don't know much about F/GO, but from what I got Lord Chaldeas is just a magical seal in the air. If Lord Camelot is full castle, maybe it was an intermediate stage of some sort? And it being Anti-Evil should probably give it an edge against Saber Alter.

If the curse doesn't land because it ran into a shield with magical energy greater than that of the curse, then it doesn't apply its effects

Does Gae Bolg curse need to travel to affect its victim? You need to strike with the spear but the aim doesn't mean anything.

And by your logic, Gae Bolg would instant-kill Unlimited Blade Works

How?

[Rafflesiac]

Does Gae Bolg curse need to travel to affect its victim? You need to strike with the spear but the aim doesn't mean anything.

Look at the UBW anime, the curse strikes the target and then materializes the blow that lodges the spear in the target.

How?

Because Unlimited Blade Works is Emiya's internal world.

[Ronove]

What feats? Fighting with a few guys, none of whom are particularly speedy themselves?

Yet here you are praising Cu to high heavens against Emiya, who the story consistently calls unremarkable. Interesting how a contender for the greatest German hero and peer to Arthur is just " a guy".

Learning Latin, huh?
But if you paid more attention you might've noticed that I am simply providing context to explain why I think Archer is talking about attack speed, not movement speed.

And it's utterly irrelevant here. You can talk about Cu beating on Assassin, what's that going to do in an argument against Heracles?

"Kosmos can block Gae Bolg because it can block Vasavi Shakti" is faulty logic as VS and Gae Bolg are completely different Noble Phantasms. One overwhelms an enemy with extreme power, other messes with destiny.

Only what matters here is the magic energy contained in both weapons. But even using your logic? Divine constructs carry greater conceptual power than other weapons. Evidenced by LB5 where Hephaestus said a DC was absolutely needed to defeat Artemis, and other attacks wouldn't scratch her, even when used by a grand servant.

If I remember correctly she temporary accessed the full power of Lord Camelot (which is B+++ and Anti-Evil) during that battle (at least Saber Alter seems to have recognized it in the anime).

You remembered incorrectly. At the start of the battle, Saber pops Excalibur Morgan and it gets blocked by Lord Chaldeas, this is a scripted scene. You then enter the fight where Cu is supporting you.

Most infoBut if Caster Cu Chulainn can manage it with his measly stats why should we consider what his much faster version can't?
And in one scene in HF, he can "instantly" carve all 18 runes (again, this might be just a poetic license, but still).

Against who? Why are we leaving out the most important element here? Caster Cu was using Runes against Emiya, who is not only long-ranged, but is a shadow servant himself.

I see no evidence he can pressure anyone with his speed, let alone Lancer.

I'm not surprised when you choose to cover your eyes when any feats is presented to you.

"Nearly any attack, huh?

Yeah. Because you know, there are categories above anti-fortress/anti-country? Like anti-world that its specfically weak to? anti-planet? anti-star?

[SpoonyViking]

Rune boundary square would be actually detrimental to him, as it would be better to abuse disengage against a stronger / faster opponent to get him over time.

Yeah, but that's not how Cú Chulainn likes to fight. I don't see him using Disengage unless directly ordered to by his Master, or in very exceptional circumstances.

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now to figure out if the issue is with the source material or the translation

I've read some of Eternal Dreamer's and CanonRap's other translations. I'm quite assured this is all on Higashide.

[fire_mountain_30]

I've read some of Eternal Dreamer's and CanonRap's other translations. I'm quite assured this is all on Higashide.

I pray you never read To Aru then. You would gouge your eyes out as a reaction

[Blastedspider]

Look at the UBW anime, the curse strikes the target and then materializes the blow that lodges the spear in the target.

The animated version is very different from VN one.

Spoiler:

No, since I saw it from a distance, I can tell better than her that the attack just now was a strange one.

The lance was definitely aimed at her feet.
But it suddenly changed its course, moving strangely in an impossible direction, and pierced the girl's heart.
But the lance itself has not grown or bent.
It looked so natural that it makes one think that the lance was already in her heart… and for that reason, it's strange.

It's not as simple as the lance changing its course and piercing her heart.
The lance did not change its course, but changed the means so that the result would be so.

…The lance thrust with that name carried the "result" of "piercing her heart" as a premise.
In other words, the process and the result were reversed.
As long as there was the result of the lance piercing her heart, the course of the lance was merely something added later to prove that fact.

An evil thorn that breaks through all defenses.
A lance that pierces the heart every time it's used, a weapon that determines your fate just by its use.
How can anyone block such a ridiculous attack?
However the enemy tries to dodge it, the lance will pierce their heart without fail.
That's why this move is fatal.
A cursed lance that always pierces the opponent with one thrust.

Later it mentions that strong "divine protection" can nullify the curse of the lance, but I hesitate to equal it with Divine Armament. Besides by this logic, Excalibur should be able to block Gae Bolg.

Because Unlimited Blade Works is Emiya's internal world

It can't be used for defense.

[eddyak]

The Gae Bolg thing comes down to one thing: Does the curse get applied before the shield is activated?

It's a 100% certainty that the shield has more mana invested in it than a very efficient stab Cu can use a bunch of times per week. Thus, this clash of NPs goes like this:

Shield activated -> Gae Bolg's curse is tossed out, then drowned by shield. Cu gets to feel awkward and Achilles is smug.
Gae Bolg's curse lands -> Shield activates -> Causality is rewritten and the stab lands before the shield activates. Cu is smug. Achilles wonders why he didn't just back out of spear range before it landed instead of deploying an Anti-World NP to handle an anti-unit one.

[Blastedspider]

Yet here you are praising Cu to high heavens against Emiya, who the story consistently calls unremarkable. Interesting how a contender for the greatest German hero and peer to Arthur is just " a guy".

I am not saying that EMIYA is awesome. But he is most certainly knowledgeable. So when he says that Cu Chulainn is the fastest Lancer is one of the first Fate infodumps ever, I don't see the reason to discard his statement. The clarification was necessary to highlight the fact that he was talking about attack speed, not movement speed.

Divine constructs carry greater conceptual power than other weapons

But it's not like they are all-powerful. Can Excalibur nullify curses, for example?

You remembered incorrectly. At the start of the battle, Saber pops Excalibur Morgan and it gets blocked by Lord Chaldeas, this is a scripted scene. You then enter the fight where Cu is supporting you.

I don't know much about F/GO. Was it fully-powered Excalibur or the dark version of Excalislash?

I'm not surprised when you choose to cover your eyes when any feats is presented to you.

A good example of a fighter (not Servant though) relying on superspeed would be Kiritsugu, who manages to dodge the incredibly fast attacks from Volumen Hydranium and goes well against Kirei's CS-boosted bajiquan. Obviously it's only on a human level but we can tell that he is being abnormally fast.

Meanwhile when Achilles never is shown to be above the Servants standards.

[You]

P much

[fire_mountain_30]

Ok, so lets refresh the scenarios regarding Achilles' offensive NPs:

1 - trying yo blitz Cu and bounce off the walls like a pinball

> exact same strategy didnt work for A rank Agility Medusa VS D rank agility Alter with C rank instinct

2- trying to run over Cu

> no chariot has ever hit anyone in this series that wasnt super distracted, including Achilles'

3- arguing that the chariot is too fast for Cu's reaction

> An archer with A rank EoTM and B rank clairvoyance can run circles around it and deal with multiple assults from it and disable it, despite having difficulty seeing it. Note that the chariot has "godspeed" but needs to make a U turn every time that it misses, so it isnt a continuous thing.

> an archer with B rank EoTM and C clairvoyance can barely see Cu's "godspeed" thrusts that "flow like a waterfall" , yet he is able to deflect them using tactics.

We have similar situations, descriptions of perception ability and descriptions of speed. The difference in the attack patterns is that one is a single charge that requires a U turn to try again if it misses and probably a hundred or more meters to charge after making the turn, while Cu's are continuous strikes from a 2 meter.

In short, while Chiron is better than Emiya, the differences in the nature of each attack should more than equalize the level of speed and skill required to deal with each of them. This effectively puts Cu's reactions in the same ballpark as the full power charge of the chariot.

As for how much one knows each of their opponents, Chiron trained Achilles before he got his chariot and we dont know if Chiron ever fought anyome on a chariot before. Emiya remembers Cu from his past life and has already fought him once before and may have been present in Ireland at one point, given that he has projected Caladbolg and observed the Ulster warriors (no more far fetched a possibility than him having gotten Rho Aias from having been summoned into the Trojan War, really)

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Didnt Cu beat Scat 3 times already btw? One in Link and 1 or 2 times in Interludes

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Apparently experience is now being forgotten as well. Can we get back to actually debating Achilles vs Cu without waffling or ignoring arguments?

"Experience"

From the guy that admits he only knows theory and little experience (especially against chariots. Name a myth where Chiron fought one) and is continuously called out by Achilles by him saying "you only sat around and taught others. I actually went into the battlefield and thrived in it"?

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Cu Chulainn can cast a spell that prevents a warrior from retreating.
Achilles doesn't have strong Magical Resistance so it is unlikely that he can resist, and the Phantasm itself doesn't protect against magic.
I am not seeing how he can avoid the spell in that context.

Now that you mention it

Achilles' moving around to gather speed for bis chariot to make it viable would probably count as "running away"

Also, the same chariot could be perceived and countered by Avicebron and his low agility

[Ronove]

I am not saying that EMIYA is awesome. But he is most certainly knowledgeable. So when he says that Cu Chulainn is the fastest Lancer

I'm pretty sure an NP denoted because someone is the fastest in all eras, outstrips Emiya's word. Not to mention...have we ever seen Achilles be summoned as a Lancer? How exactly do we know he isn't in that category.

is one of the first Fate infodumps ever

As an aside, this is one of the points against reliability. Because it was one of the first statements, it holds less weight after Fate has changed over many years. Never forget saber once said that 2-3 noble phantasms should be the limit for heroes. Achilles alone got 5.

But it's not like they are all-powerful.

But they are certainly of a higher quality.

Can Excalibur nullify curses, for example?

Is Excalibur a shield? If it was, then yeah, it definitely would nullify GB.

I don't know much about F/GO. Was it fully-powered Excalibur or the dark version of Excalislash?

Saber Alter's Excalibur. First 30 seconds.

A good example of a fighter (not Servant though) relying on superspeed would be Kiritsugu, who manages to dodge the incredibly fast attacks from Volumen Hydranium and goes well against Kirei's CS-boosted bajiquan. Obviously it's only on a human level but we can tell that he is being abnormally fast.

Inheritance of Glory has Achilles dodging the noble phantasms of Karna, Siegfried, Mordred, Vlad and pretty much 2/3rds of the Apo cast for a single night, with only Chiron as his backup.

[Blastedspider]

I'm pretty sure an NP denoted because someone is the fastest in all eras, outstrips Emiya's word.

But the Noble Phantasm itself refers to "movement speed". Its both in its origin ("swift-footed Achilles", not "Achilles who hits really fast") and in the sheet description.

Excalibur a shield?

It is a divine construct, and you can certainly parry with it.

Inheritance of Glory has Achilles dodging the noble phantasms

The battles in F/GO are all over the place. Is there any description?

Saber Alter's Excalibur

Hammer of the Vile King seems to point that this is a "slash" version of the attack rather than full Anti-Fortress blast. Does it say anything after the fight itself?

[AAM1232]

Again, where is Emiya shown to tbe knowledgeable enough to have known of Achilles before making the statement about Cu?

Also, why are we pretending that Kosmos will not block an Anti-Unit attack or an Anti-Fortress one when it's literally in the Apo mats description? I mean other than to pretend like Cu has a chance of landing his trump cards.

[eddyak]

Again, where is Emiya shown to tbe knowledgeable enough to have known of Achilles before making the statement about Cu?

Also, why are we pretending that Kosmos will not block an Anti-Unit attack or an Anti-Fortress one when it's literally in the Apo mats description? I mean other than to pretend like Cu has a chance of landing his trump cards.

Because the entire point of Gae Bolg is that it cheats that sort of thing.

It'd be one thing if it was just a cursed stab that you can't heal from and does the thousands of thorns thing. Those are ten a penny. The important part of Cu's NP is a reversal of causality. If the curse hits you, and isn't dispelled, the spear is in your heart. Doesn't matter if you toss out an Excaliblast, or use a causality-warping artifact from the Age of Gods to kill Gae Bolg's wielder before the attack was ever launched, the spear's curse has landed, and thus, it's in your heart. There was a whole scene about it in Hollow Ataraxia.

[Blastedspider]

Again, where is Emiya shown to tbe knowledgeable enough to have known of Achilles before making the statement about Cu?

From Holmesian perspective: he knows about stuff like Gungir and Angra Manyu, and shows understanding of abilities and legends of many other Servants. Again, ALL Heroic Spirits get some knowledge from being elevated to the Throne of Heroes. This, for example, allows Cu to recognise Excalibur.
From Doylist perspective: because Nasu made him say so and there is no coherent reson to deceive audience like that.

Also, why are we pretending that Kosmos will not block an Anti-Unit attack or an Anti-Fortress one when it's literally in the Apo mats description? I mean other than to pretend like Cu has a chance of landing his trump cards.

Because there is no evidence that "a World" can protect you from being kicked right in the "destiny".

[Ronove]

The battles in F/GO are all over the place. Is there any description?

Achilles: "Didn't you say it was impossible just now?" Chiron: "Yeah, it's impossible to defeat twelve. So what should we do?" Sieg wonders if it's possible to take them all out with a Noble Phantasm but dismisses the idea just as quickly. Achilles suggests taking them down one by one. Chiron says that's close, but the enemy won't come nicely one by one in turns. You say three at a time, and Chiron smiles, saying that's the correct answer. Chiron will hold back the remaining nine with Achilles. Achilles: "Eh." In the meantime, you and Sieg will take care of three enemies. Sieg: "This is a bit reckless." Chiron: "No, it's entirely not reckless at all, not one bit." Achilles: "No no, no no no no no!" He thinks it's a bit much to ask him to hold back 9 Servants together with Chiron. Chiron already has a plan prepared, however, which is to retreat when the enemy is about to use their Noble Phantasms. Until nightfall, Sieg is to train to predict when a Noble Phantasm is about to be used. Hearing this, Achilles is triggered with memories of his harsh training under Chiron. Achilles (8 years old) wanted the fastest way to become a hero and Chiron gave it to him. Chiron: "Evade my attacks for 24 hours." Achilles (8 years old): "Eh." And Chiron proceeded to fire a hundred arrows at Achilles in that cramped cave. Achilles remembered that Chiron said: "It's okay, it'll be fine! If you change the trajectory of ten out of a hundred arrows, you'll naturally avoid all of them! With your god-like speed it's not impossible! And see, the arrowhead is not attached, so if it hits it'll just hurt a lot, that's all! Eh? You don't want the quickest course, you want to do it steadily? I see... I see.... Well, I'm more suited to teaching in that style after all, and this type of education is a bit unsavoury. But for the sake of situations where there's not much time, let's polish this teaching method too."

Achilles spends time doing mental image training to prepare for the fight, and the group succeeds after Chiron's training.

Hammer of the Vile King seems to point that this is a "slash" version of the attack rather than full Anti-Fortress blast. Does it say anything after the fight itself?

It's just Excalibur Morgan, which does the exact same as Excalibur. She uses it to blow up a meteorite fragment.

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Because the entire point of Gae Bolg is that it cheats that sort of thing.

It'd be one thing if it was just a cursed stab that you can't heal from and does the thousands of thorns thing. Those are ten a penny. The important part of Cu's NP is a reversal of causality. If the curse hits you, and isn't dispelled, the spear is in your heart. Doesn't matter if you toss out an Excaliblast, or use a causality-warping artifact from the Age of Gods to kill Gae Bolg's wielder before the attack was ever launched, the spear's curse has landed, and thus, it's in your heart. There was a whole scene about it in Hollow Ataraxia.

GB's curse is so that it's a sure-hit attack that will pierce the heart. This doesn't mean it can't be deterred by obstacles along the path. Nasu says Saber surviving GB was a combination of luck and the precognition that let her gain distance from the spear. So clearly for the latter to have been relevant, GB doesn't seal actions after the spear has been activated. I see no reason it would get past Kosmos at all when shields explicitly work.

Don't confuse GB's activation for Fragarach. If Saber launched an Excalibur at the same time Cu used GB, the blast isn't going away.

[AAM1232]

Because the entire point of Gae Bolg is that it cheats that sort of thing.

It'd be one thing if it was just a cursed stab that you can't heal from and does the thousands of thorns thing. Those are ten a penny. The important part of Cu's NP is a reversal of causality. If the curse hits you, and isn't dispelled, the spear is in your heart. Doesn't matter if you toss out an Excaliblast, or use a causality-warping artifact from the Age of Gods to kill Gae Bolg's wielder before the attack was ever launched, the spear's curse has landed, and thus, it's in your heart. There was a whole scene about it in Hollow Ataraxia.

Right which is why a shield wouldn't work except for the fact that it is an explicitly given way of beating the heartstab. Seems to me like you're making up stuff here.

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From Holmesian perspective: he knows about stuff like Gungir and Angra Manyu, and shows understanding of abilities and legends of many other Servants. Again, ALL Heroic Spirits get some knowledge from being elevated to the Throne of Heroes. This, for example, allows Cu to recognise Excalibur.
From Doylist perspective: because Nasu made him say so and there is no coherent reson to deceive audience like that.



Because there is no evidence that "a World" can protect you from being kicked right in the "destiny".

Right, because Nasu has never given flawed opinions from characters before. Or that Emiya has seen Comet Form in action and still thinks Cu is faster.

The evidence is in HF, not my fault you're ignoring valid arguments for fanfictions.

[Blastedspider]

It's just Excalibur Morgan, which does the exact same as Excalibur. She uses it to blow up a meteorite fragment.

The fights in F/GO are hard to measure (especially the early ones when Nasu and Co quite handle the mobage format). In other mediums we can observe them from 3rd person as readers or viewers but in game you're actually participate in battle by commanding the Servants, and there is no story to observe per se.
Normally there should be no way for D-ranked NP to stop Excalibur unless some mighty conceptual shenanigans are involved.

Achilles spends time doing mental image training to prepare for the fight, and the group succeeds after Chiron's training

I am sorry, but how is that a feat of super-Servant speed? I mean, it seems more like tactical decision (which I don't really understand either).

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Right, because Nasu has never given flawed opinions from characters before

We usually can tell when character is wrong because he is shown to be wrong. This is not the case here as nobody comments on Achilles' attack speed, and he has no notable feats of being particularly speedy in battle. At best you can come up with "oh but he can fight two Servants at the same time!", which is a moot point as we don't even know how Cu Chuilainn might handle a group battle (because those are rare in F/SN).

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Right which is why a shield wouldn't work except for the fact that it is an explicitly given way of beating the heartstab. Seems to me like you're making up stuff here.

The quote doesn't really provide details on how that supposed to work. Maybe it only works if you put have shield active before the curse is unleashed (and thus isn't activated).

[Ronove]

The fights in F/GO are hard to measure (especially the early ones when Nasu and Co quite handle the mobage format). In other mediums we can observe them from 3rd person as readers or viewers but in game you're actually participate in battle by commanding the Servants, and there is nothing to observe per se. Normally there should be no way for D-ranked NP to stop Excalibur unless some mighty conceptual shenanigans are involved.

It is a scripted scene. Only people involved here are Saber and Mashu. Saber got blocked. There's no need to make this any more difficult that it needs to be. Also since when were NP ranks allowed to be used so frivolously? Excalibur might be A++, but that has no bearing on NPs that have completely different functions.

I am sorry, but how is that a feat of super-Servant speed? I mean, it seems more like tactical decision (which I don't really understand either).

The servants in inheritance of glory are like berserkers who bust out their NPs recklessly in combat. Chiron wants the party to fight and hold down the other 9 servants, then detect NP activations and then evade them. Which is why Achilles gets flashbacks of Chiron shooting thousands of arrows at him for him to dodge with "godspeed". Chiron and Achilles fend off 6 servants for a night while Sieg and Guda take down Avicebron, Shakespeare and Jack.

At best you can come up with "oh but he can fight two Servants at the same time!", which is a moot point as we don't know how Cu Chuilainn might handle a group battle, because those are rare in F/SN.

Your logic makes no sense. Achilles has feats against two servants, one top-tier able to match Karna. But this means nothing because "apparently" nobody SAYS Achilles attacks super fast, and that's enough to downplay what he does?

Meanwhile, it doesn't matter for Cu, who is the one lacking feats of that magnitude, only a statement that isn't even related to having a feat like that? When we have his feats against solo servants in FSN, where nobody asides Emiya and Assassin have problems with his attack speed? If Cu lacks feats, that's his problem and a blow to his chances. Achilles fighting those two servants is a feat for him, and much more credible than statements.

I don't even know why you'd bother debating at this point.

[Rafflesiac]

The quote doesn't really provide details on how that supposed to work. Maybe it only works if you put have shield active before the curse is unleashed (and thus isn't activated).

- shoot curse at enemy
- shield is in way
- if (shield > curse) {do nothing}
- else {enemy stabbed; spear moves;}