Badass Versus Thread

[I Can't Believe It's Not A NoblePhantasm]

Hoo boy. Couple of things to address here.

"He's not a pear to Artoria, Herc, Karna, Arjuna, or Achilles. "

Aint that a damn lie

Ooohh. Such a retort. Where'd you get your opinion that Cu is on par with Artoria and Herc? Is it from Rin's impression that Saber summoned by Shirou is stronger, or Kirei assessing that Cu is weaker? Can't argue it's because of Kirei. Shirou is worse, lowering all of Saber's stats whereas Cu's stats are consistent, and Saber didn't have Avalon at the moment. Or could you be referring to Nasu throwing Cu a bone by giving him the ability to bypass God Hand through rune BS and still calling it an uphill battle?

Also, to the other users. Both EMIYA's statements and Achilles accolades are not mutually exclusive. EMIYA assertions were about lancers in general, which could just mean that Cu's way above the average lancer in speed, not the fastest ever. There's no need to downplay EMIYA's judgement to address this point, and it's a stupid point to argue once you consider his arsenal must, by sheer numbers, be close to Gilgamesh's in scale, and he can read their history and actively search through them. At worst, EMIYA judged Cu from all the hundreds if not thousands of lancers he has intel on, and Achilles's spear might not be in UBW. The only reason why I myself ever brought up EMIYA's skill statement for Cu is because said statement got repeated, which narratively indicates it wasn't a throwaway statement. Also, regardless of what your opinion is of EMIYA's strength, his skills and judgement are consistently praised. So this was an illogical, and unnecessary approach to the debate.

I love how people bring up Mash as if that means shit. Did everyone just conveniently skip over the dialogue where Salter said she was weakened an held back? Teardrop photon ray is, at best, equal to Excalibur Morgan, but Mash was sure she wouldn't be able to handle it. Also, in London, she states that Modred's training session had the most powerful attacks she dealt with since caster Cu. Yes.......... everything she blocked up until that point was weaker than Wicker Man. Do not bring up Excalibur Morgan VS Lord Chaldea to prove your point.

[Tobias]

I think I actually do remember a quote that went something like “lancer never fully displayed his potential, but he is an existence on par with King Arthur and Heracles. This is Ireland’s Man of Light.”

or something. Don’t take it to seriously cause this is some total Kota’s book level of no idea where I got that.

[Ronove]

You'd be right.

Lancer [Servant] Heroic Spirit of the lance. Requires supreme agility, as well as excellent close combat skills. Though they tend to be less flashy than the other classes, they are a very reliable type of Servant. The Lancer in the story has a rough and tumble personality, but at his core he believes in justice and is easy to get along with. He is an agreeable youth acting out the role of one gentle in disposition yet strong in body. His true identity is the great Celtic hero, Cu Chulainn. If the stage of this Holy Grail War were anywhere but Japan, he would be a shining existence on par with Heracles and King Arthur. As was mentioned in the story, he is a Heroic Spirit that specializes in survival, capable of returning alive no matter how hopeless the situation. Unfortunately, this time luck wasn't on his side.

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I love how people bring up Mash as if that means shit. Did everyone just conveniently skip over the dialogue where Salter said she was weakened an held back?

Gonna a sauce on this one.

Teardrop photon ray is, at best, equal to Excalibur Morgan, but Mash was sure she wouldn't be able to handle it.

Um...what? Teardrop Photon Ray is stronger than Excalibur. Excalibur Morgan was directly compared to Photon Ray in Rome and Mashu couldn't block it by herself, so she needed Boudica's help. Altera here had a holy grail buffing her, so that's fair. Then later on in time temple, Teardrop was said to be stronger than anything Altera showed in Rome. So yes, it is stronger than Excalibur. Why is this hard to believe given what Altera is, what power that NP is using, and how it damages her saint graph just to employ?

Also, in London, she states that Modred's training session had the most powerful attacks she dealt with since caster Cu. Yes.......... everything she blocked up until that point was weaker than Wicker Man. Do not bring up Excalibur Morgan VS Lord Chaldea to prove your point.

Again, gonna need a source on this. Mashu blocking Excalibur Morgan isn't affected though. Feats > Character statements.

[fire_mountain_30]

When people can start to avoid dreaming up perfect scenarios for Cu and get back to reality, maybe they can answer why we should take Emiya thinking Cu is the fastest attacker seriously while ignoring Kosmos as a candidate for blocking both GBs or Comet Form giving Achilles an option of backing in and out as he wants.

Ok, so all we have for Achilles is that he has way around GB. Good for him.

It isnt like we have been debating non-NP combat for 24 hours now or anything

[AAM1232]

Ok, so all we have for Achilles is that he has way around GB. Good for him.

It isnt like we have been debating non-NP combat for 24 hours now or anything

Attempts have been made, however when skills and capabilities are being misread it's difficult to have a debate.

[Blastedspider]

Yes, and they succeeded against those servants, who were the ones to retreat, not them.

I am talking about battle in the Fuyuki.

Also no. Ranks don't exclusively determine which NP is stronger. That's why classifications and concepts also exist. An NP can be A+ anti-army, but this doesn't mean it'll equal against A+ anti-fortress, when the latter is specifically about power, whereas the former about range.

We haven't actually see Anti-Army Noble Phantasm clash with equal or lower ranked Anti-Fortress Noble Phantasm to say if the type plays any role in that regard. Besides both Soaring Spear that Strikes with Death and Troias Tragoidia have the same type so that's also a moot point.

I gave it to you. He and Chiron fought off Vlad, Semiramis, Karna, Siegfried, Mordred, Spartacus, Astolfo, Frankenstein at the same time, by themselves, using evasive tactics.

Evasive tactics =! dodging several Noble Phantasms at the same time. Especially if (at least the way I understood this) they're actually supposed to retreat BEFORE enemy uses them. Again, when Kiritsugu uses super-speed we actually shown this. In example you provide we only know general outline of Achilles and Chiron strategy and outcome but don't actually see the duo in action.

Apples and Oranges only work when circumstances are too different to be compared.

The circumstances are different.
EMIYA is evaluating Cu Chulainn based on his knowledge, the limits of which are not established. He didn't use himself as a reference point at all so comparing him to Siegfried or Karna is an exercise in futility.

Cwill simply travel through a path to the heart no matter what. But if there's a defense it can't get through, it's not reaching the heart.

That's not how it works in VN.
Cu actually aims at Saber's legs but somehow the spear ends up in her chest as if reality itself bent. Because of that Shirou starts going on and on how broken that ability is and how no defense can work against it.

Yes. Because a high-ranking divine construct able to block VS definitely overwhelms GB thrust's magic energy. This is what we are told.

We were never given an estimate of how much energy is necessary (and Barbed Spear that Pierces with Death cannot be effectively measured in the first place).

If that was true, then a shield wouldn't be mentioned as a viable method to counter it, and the anime wouldn't have represented Saber's dodge by partially blocking the resultant strike with her sword. Which means that there's a directional element to the curse that a shield can block.

First of all, I don't think anime should be taken into account as the way Gae Bolg works in VN can't really be animated well. Ufotable's version added the time-reverse effect (even though that's closer to what Fragarach does) but DEEN's version is actually closer to the novel but it looks underwhelming.
Second, if we go by eddyak's interpretation the directional element would be the curse. I. e. Gae Bolg shots curse first (which can be negated) and then the thrust happens (at this point the shield is already useless).
And the curses don't really all work the same. Most can actually be canceled with Magical Resistance, does this mean Gae Bolg should too?

[Rafflesiac]

Most can actually be canceled with Magical Resistance, does this mean Gae Bolg should too?

Noble Phantasms beat Magic Resistance.

[Ratman]

Which is kind of weird, because Delusional Hearbeat for example is just magecraft.

[fire_mountain_30]

on the topic of Gae Bolg weaknesses, isnt our only refference material early-story shirou, who barely knows the basics of magecraft, doesnt know how circuits work and is often blatantly wrong?

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@BlastedSpider

dodging NPs isnt hard either.

the entire black faction was casually "dancing in the rain" around Atalanta's arrow NP.

Chiron, Diarmuid and Saber have dodged chariots or mounts

Semi reacts and blocks Mordy's with fish scales

Gil and Alex dodge excalibur

Emiya intercepts an Ea blast with Rho Aias

UBW sword rain doesnt win fights against servants

Hanging Gardens main canon is equal to an NP and is dosged or blocked once or twice

Vlad managed to (mostly) dodge a surprise eye beam in thr manga adaptation

Astolfo intercepted VS

Rho Aias got in between the pegasus and excalibur clash

[SpoonyViking]

on the topic of Gae Bolg weaknesses, isnt our only refference material early-story shirou, who barely knows the basics of magecraft, doesnt know how circuits work and is often blatantly wrong?

Sort of. Shirou often displays much more knowledge than he should in his inner narration, almost as if it was written for a third-person omniscient narrator at first.

[Ronove]

We haven't actually see Anti-Army Noble Phantasm clash with equal or lower ranked Anti-Fortress Noble Phantasm to say if the type plays any role in that regard.

This is in the actual description. Anti-fortress differs from anti-army because it's geared towards wiping out a massive construct instead of people. It was explained in Zero that Saber's anti-fortress NP was necessary for destroying Chtulu completely. Then again in Rome where Roman says he was surprised you survived that anti-fortress NP.

Besides both Soaring Spear that Strikes with Death and Troias Tragoidia have the same type so that's also a moot point.

But Excalibur and Lord Chaldeas do not. Don't forget the train of the conversation now. And even in this case there's no comparing a spear to a chariot. TT picks up speed in order to ramp up its attack power, it's not static. And why wouldn't it just evade GB thrown when there's no aim function with the spear?

Evasive tactics =! dodging several Noble Phantasms at the same time.

Every time Vlad fights, he's spamming thousands of stakes from the ground, there's no point where he doesn't activate his NP in any of his battles due to how casual it is.

Especially if (at least the way I understood this) they're actually supposed to retreat. BEFORE enemy uses them.

Retreat =/= Disengage. Please read the full quote. Sieg has to deal with 3 other servants while they handle the 6. That means Chiron and Achilles had to entrap and suppress 9 servants for the entire night or they break off and ruin the plan. Or do you think being able to multi-task the different NPs, skills and attacks coming from multiple angles is easy and not evidence of speed and reflexes?

Again, when Kiritsugu uses super-speed we actually shown this. In example you provide we only know general outline of Achilles and Chiron strategy and outcome but don't actually see the duo in action.

Doesn't change that they kept those servants at bay.

The circumstances are different. EMIYA is evaluating Cu Chulainn based on his knowledge, the limits of which are not established. He didn't use himself as a reference point at all so comparing him to Siegfried or Karna is an exercise in futility.

Why do I care about what Emiya thinks? I'm arguing feats. Achilles is someone who fights on Karna's level and surpasses Siegfried's level of skill. What does Cu have that's on-par with this when he is never shown being a difficult opponent for anyone above Emiya's level? In fact, Emiya himself was able to match Cu's full force attacks the second time they fought.

Cu actually aims at Saber's legs but somehow the spear ends up in her chest as if reality itself bent. Because of that Shirou starts going on and on how broken that ability is and how no defense can work against it.

That's exactly what I said. The spear will always finds its way to the heart. But this doesn't mean the spear will ignore everything in the way because as shown? Saber's precog and movements allowed her to survive in addition to luck.

We were never given an estimate of how much energy is necessary (and Barbed Spear that Pierces with Death cannot be effectively measured in the first place).

B+ rank NP Nasu calls an average noble phantasm while Kosmos blocks VS. No, I'm pretty sure it's definitely overpowering GB. I'm not even going to entertain otherwise.

[Reign]

Paracelsus vs Edward Elric

[Skull]

Paracelsus vs Edward Elric

Would Edward's oedipal complex give him enough of a power up to defeat a Servant?

[Ronove]

Paracelsus vs Edward Elric

Don't think Ed can do anything against Dr.P's NP.

[Blastedspider]

This is in the actual description. Anti-fortress differs from anti-army because it's geared towards wiping out a massive construct instead of people. It was explained in Zero that Saber's anti-fortress NP was necessary for destroying Chtulu completely. Then again in Rome where Roman says he was surprised you survived that anti-fortress NP.

Anti-Fortress NP was necessary to obliterate the monster in a single attack because it kept regenerating.
Again, we haven't been given any specific example of a Type affecting the clash of Noble Phantasms, so it is impossible to draw conclusions.

TT picks up speed in order to ramp up its attack power, it's not static.

Show me the evidence that its destructive power goes over the rank from its profile.

And why wouldn't it just evade GB thrown when there's no aim function with the spear?

It is literally called an unavoidable attack.

Or do you think being able to multi-task the different NPs, skills and attacks coming from multiple angles is easy and not evidence of speed and reflexes?

It evidences great power but because it has happened off-screen we don't know what actually happened and thus is unable to determine how Achilles' speed affected the situation. You're essentially asking me to imagine a hypothetic scenario and use it to prove your point. I am not going to do that (and where is the guy to scream about fanfiction when you need one?).

Why do I care about what Emiya thinks?

From Holmesian perspective: you should care because he knows way more about Nasuverse and Heroic Spirits than you being one himself and possessing the knowledge they get after being elevated into the Throne of Heroes.
From Doylist perspective: you should care because Nasu made him say so.

But this doesn't mean the spear will ignore everything in the way because as shown? Saber's precog and movements allowed her to survive in addition to luck.

What it actually does is reversing causality, the spear being thrust after the outcome of striking the heart is established.

When its true power is invoked with its true name, Lancer’s crimson spear gains the outcome of already striking the heart before being thrust.

It didn’t hit because it was thrust, it hit so it was thrust, an attack on destiny itself.
What is needed to dodge Gae Bolg isn’t high agility but the power to reverse fate before the activation of Gae Bolg: high luck.

I think this supports eddyak's interpretation. And using Saber's case as an example is pointless because she managed to negate the curse .

B+ rank NP Nasu calls an average noble phantasm while Kosmos blocks VS

So you know about that interview?
But then how could you have missed the next paragraph there he unambiguously states that Noble Phantasms "with conceptual effects, destiny interference types fall into a special category" while specifically using Barbed Spear that Pierces with Death as an example?

[Menwearpink]

Arguing that Kosmos is unable to defend against Gae Bolg is silly, but the problem is Kosmos likely takes up way more energy than Gae Bolg so using it defensively is a unfavorable trade for Achilles.

[Ronove]

Anti-Fortress NP was necessary to obliterate the monster in a single attack because it kept regenerating.

Kind of the point? It's the category with sufficient power to annhilate it 100%. Anti-army isn't about that kind of destructive power. If you're pitting NPs with those categories and the same rank against each other, anti-fortress is going to win. As long as you're subscribing to the idea that ranks are absolute.

It is literally called an unavoidable attack.

Nasu has said in no ambiguous terms that Gae Bolg Thrown is just pure destructive power. Nothing else.

It evidences great power but because it has happened off-screen we don't know what actually happened and thus is unable to determine how Achilles' speed affected the situation. You're essentially asking me to imagine a hypothetic scenario and use it to prove your point. I am not going to do that (and where is the guy to scream about fanfiction when you need one?)

No. I'm asking you to consider the end result. Which is servants with massive AoE capabilities, spam power and are high ranking even with just physical skills, getting occupied by Achilles and Chiron alone, requires some serious multi-tasking capabilities. Chiron has A+ agility, degrees of future sight so it makes sense. Achilles is the fastest servant, who has been taught to fight in these situations, so that also makes perfect sense. No matter what happened in the interim, these factors do not disappear, the end result did not change and there was no statement that their plan had deviated either. in other words, occam's razor prevails here.

So you know about that interview? But then how could you have missed the next paragraph there he unambiguously states that Noble Phantasms "with conceptual effects, destiny interference types fall into a special category" while specifically using Barbed Spear that Pierces with Death as an example?

Conceptual effects (including all divine constructs by nature btw) are different from attacks of pure power. Gae Bolg thrown has no conceptual effect, just DC and magic energy. More magic energy than GB thrust, and that caps out as an average NP/B+ rank. That's not at the level of VS at all. But man, this has gone on for a while. I'll leave it at that and agree to disagree.

[Blastedspider]

If you're pitting NPs with those categories and the same rank against each other, anti-fortress is going to win.

Is there any evidence?
Excalibur actually lost to combination of Bellerophon and Shirou's Rho Aius (by 10%) although this situation is complicated as we don't know the type and Rank of the shield.

Nasu has said in no ambiguous terms that Gae Bolg Thrown is just pure destructive power. Nothing else.

Pretty sure it was said in the context of it not having a conceptual ability of Anti-Unit version.

No. I'm asking you to consider the end result. Which is servants with massive AoE capabilities, spam power and are high ranking even with just physical skills, getting occupied by Achilles and Chiron alone, requires some serious multi-tasking capabilities. Chiron has A+ agility, degrees of future sight so it makes sense. Achilles is the fastest servant, who has been taught to fight in these situations, so that also makes perfect sense.

The end result is impressive, sure. However, I see no evidence that achieving it absolutely required of speed on the super-Servant level.

Conceptual effects (including all divine constructs by nature btw)

Divine Constructs are Conceptual effects? Since then?
I don't remember seeing that claim anywhere, and I am pretty sure Excalibur isn't one (as it managed to prevail against Sefar).

More magic energy than GB thrust, and that caps out as an average NP/B+ rank. That's not at the level of VS at all.

I have never argued that Kosmos can't protect against Soaring Spear that Strikes with Death, lol. In fact that this is the reason why I believe Achilles would win if he could use the shield simultaneously with the chariot for an extended period of time.
My point is that there is no evidence that Kosmos can protect you against conceptual interference. It seems like a very tough shield (just like Excalibur is a very intense energy attack) and that's it.

[Wandering Swordwoman]

Why keep bringing up a shield that he won't used?

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Why would Achilles use Cosmos just for a single target NP?
Pretty sure it's about Cu vs Achilles not Gae Bolg vs a shield that just exist for the sake of the protagonist

[fire_mountain_30]

so, on the topic of Shirou saying that you need a shield with greater magical energy to block gae bolg (a shirou that doesnt know shit at that point)

Archer has mana B and Cu has mana C

both use all of their mana for Raw Ass and Gay Bulge respectively

so Raw Ass has more Mana

Raw Ass also has a concept thst is perfect for blocking Gay Bulge and the Bulge has the concept to penetrate all the cheeks

so, to sum up.

Raw Ass had more mana and a concept of equal power as Gay Bulge (potentially stronger even), not to.mention that ir had 7 layers, all of them progressively stronger

Yet archer was the one that basically lost an arm and had no mana or stamina left to fight back in the even Cu wanted to deck his face.

TLDR: shirou, especially early story Shirou, is a very bad source of information