Badass Versus Thread

[HeroOfTheAges]

Based on perceived power levels Karna should lose the majority against Quetz. He has a better chance than most though, if they both are servant versions, but not mana limited.

Karna's main tools and strengths here could be :
-Brahmasthra and its Kundala version could be enough to damage Quetz if they hit/ are not blocked.
-K&K has 90% damage reduction, which is better than the 50% servant Quetz version.
-VS has a weakness in that Karna loses his defenses (if you discount Extella, where he can resummon it). However, Xiuhcoatl leaves Quetz in a far worse condition, and if both are tied, then Karna could finish her off. VS also manages to beat Sefar, whereas, Xiuhcoatl has failed to kill Tiamat (kind of a troll point due to CU alter and Kosmos)

However, Chaldea Quetz could still have him outclassed due to:
-Generally more impressive showings: Karna has been a jobber in most parts where he appears, such as America Singularity, the mess in Apo, the fight with Gawain etc. Quetz, has lesser jobbing and feats as good as his own, such as the fights with Ishtar and party, Kingu and Gugallana.
-50% damage reduction could still be strong enough to tank much of Karna's mana burst, and outright reduce damage along with the following point.
-Quetz also being a sun divinity and with a higher rank means that she could outright resist much of Karna's attacks. That cold be enough with her generally impressive stats to put Karna down.

Note that Quetz is the Chaldea version. The full powered 100% immunity Quetz would be a better match for say Super Karna and is out of regular Karna's paygrade. All in all, Quetz wins 7-8 times out of 10.

[Ronove]

However, Chaldea Quetz could still have him outclassed due to: -Generally more impressive showings: Karna has been a jobber in most parts where he appears, such as America Singularity, the mess in Apo, the fight with Gawain etc. Quetz, has lesser jobbing and feats as good as his own, such as the fights with Ishtar and party, Kingu and Gugallana.

Gugalanna was a non-feat. It was Quetz usurping Ishtar's authority as a goddess of venus and commanding a servant of Venus to die. Fergus can invoke Caladbolg's Geass condition and get Cu to commit seppuku, but that's not really evidence he's better.

Note that Quetz is the Chaldea version. The full powered 100% immunity Quetz would be a better match for say Super Karna and is out of regular Karna's paygrade. All in all, Quetz wins 7-8 times out of 10.

Super Karna is out of Quetz's league. You're talking one demiurge against Karna powered by two.

[Zork Knight]

-VS has a weakness in that Karna loses his defenses (if you discount Extella, where he can resummon it). However, Xiuhcoatl leaves Quetz in a far worse condition, and if both are tied, then Karna could finish her off. VS also manages to beat Sefar, whereas, Xiuhcoatl has failed to kill Tiamat (kind of a troll point due to CU alter and Kosmos)

The what now? Nothing is mentioned of Xiuhcoatl having a downside, and Xiuhcoatl seals NPs on top of damage.

And yeah, Xiuhcoatl failed to kill Tiamat... while Tiamat still had no concept of death.

[Ronove]

Xiuhcoatl as used in the anime was ripping Quetz's own body apart. There's no downside like that written in mats but you can just assume she's limit-breaking in BP fashion. Merlin said it was a suicide attack at the end of Babylonia so the shoe fits in my opinion.


Tiamat having no concept of death only matters if she's killed. The attack just didn't harm her at all.

[Zork Knight]

Xiuhcoatl as used in the anime was ripping Quetz's own body apart. There's no downside like that written in mats but you can just assume she's limit-breaking in BP fashion. Merlin said it was a suicide attack at the end of Babylonia so the shoe fits in my opinion.


Tiamat having no concept of death only matters if she's killed. The attack just didn't harm her at all.

The anime shows her horns cracking and the impact pushing her down even through mutliple layers of whatever that barrier was

[Ronove]

The anime shows her horns cracking and the impact pushing her down even through mutliple layers of whatever that barrier was

Tiamat having her horn cracked happened in the game too, but Roman registers it as no damage to her main body. I'm just saying? Tiamat lacking the concept of death gives her immortality, not immunity. Regular attacks will damage her if they're sufficient. If they can't, then they just aren't.

Quetzalcoatl used Piedra del Sol, her strongest NP, on ground zero, killing all the Ushi's and turning the surroundings into a volcano. Tiamat wasn't even scratched by it beyond falling over due to requiring the chaos tide to support her weight. That's just raw durability.

[I Can't Believe It's Not A NoblePhantasm]

Based on perceived power levels Karna should lose the majority against Quetz. He has a better chance than most though, if they both are servant versions, but not mana limited.

Karna's main tools and strengths here could be :
-Brahmasthra and its Kundala version could be enough to damage Quetz if they hit/ are not blocked.

Yes.

-K&K has 90% damage reduction, which is better than the 50% servant Quetz version.

What you're not factoring in is that 90% damage reduction doesn't matter if Quetz can bring out firepower strong enough to kill a servant more than 10x over. Destroying a cluster of bel lahmus is a strong enough feat to show that Karna's damage reduction won't cut it. Karna has to actively defend with his armor or get instantly killed.

-VS has a weakness in that Karna loses his defenses (if you discount Extella, where he can resummon it). However, Xiuhcoatl leaves Quetz in a far worse condition, and if both are tied, then Karna could finish her off. VS also manages to beat Sefar, whereas, Xiuhcoatl has failed to kill Tiamat (kind of a troll point due to CU alter and Kosmos)

Coughthe results weren't showncough. And before you say "well that'd be an awkward ending," bear in mind that Cu's ending was him fighting Gilgamesh. Truly being a lancer is suffering. I will say that Karna indicated damage scaling on higher entities like gods was indicated by Karna in the cut-scene before the battle. Which, granted, is relevant since he's fighting against Quetz.

However, Chaldea Quetz could still have him outclassed due to:
-Generally more impressive showings: Karna has been a jobber in most parts where he appears, such as America Singularity, the mess in Apo, the fight with Gawain etc. Quetz, has lesser jobbing and feats as good as his own, such as the fights with Ishtar and party, Kingu and Gugallana.

Only part that's jobbing is American singularity because Cu Alter should have died to VS. You can't argue Apoc was jobbing. That was his original portrayal, and what ultimately happened was that a shield with world-defense stopped VS while being destroyed itself. Other than that, Sieg was giving himself amps. That's not jobbing. That's pretty fair to Karna. Gawain with support might seem like jobbing for Karna until you realize that Karna's introduction to CCC had him being said to basically force Gilgamesh to get semi-serious (but he'd absolutely loose if he was), and that he was equal to, or "possibly" even be stronger than Gawain. Like it or not, Gawain being comparable to Karna is being consistent to dialogue. Blame Nasu if you don't like it. That is unless you think the statement was referring to was sunlight Gawain, if you really think Karna stands a hope in hell against him.

People just stuck to the Gilgamesh portion of the statement, and went out of control wanking him and the other Indian heroes that scale to him. In reality, we have a good idea where Karna stands in the hierarchy. He's equal to Achilles, and considering Herc is a preferable option to Achilles, a knight-class Herc is >= Karna, and Karna being marginally above Gawain might also make him scale nicely to Lancelot.

-50% damage reduction could still be strong enough to tank much of Karna's mana burst, and outright reduce damage along with the following point.
-Quetz also being a sun divinity and with a higher rank means that she could outright resist much of Karna's attacks. That cold be enough with her generally impressive stats to put Karna down.

yep.

[Rafflesiac]

Xiuhcoatl as used in the anime was ripping Quetz's own body apart. There's no downside like that written in mats but you can just assume she's limit-breaking in BP fashion. Merlin said it was a suicide attack at the end of Babylonia so the shoe fits in my opinion.


Tiamat having no concept of death only matters if she's killed. The attack just didn't harm her at all.

Didn't she overload on Divinity by cramming Piedra del Sol inside of her? I don't think the whole 'burning herself from the inside out' part is normally part of her NP.

[Ronove]

Didn't she overload on Divinity by cramming Piedra del Sol inside of her? I don't think the whole 'burning herself from the inside out' part is normally part of her NP.

Watched it again. You're right. That's a pretty cool detail. When Babylonia's production is good, it's damn good.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes.



What you're not factoring in is that 90% damage reduction doesn't matter if Quetz can bring out firepower strong enough to kill a servant more than 10x over. Destroying a cluster of bel lahmus is a strong enough feat to show that Karna's damage reduction won't cut it. Karna has to actively defend with his armor or get instantly killed.



Coughthe results weren't showncough. And before you say "well that'd be an awkward ending," bear in mind that Cu's ending was him fighting Gilgamesh. Truly being a lancer is suffering. I will say that Karna indicated damage scaling on higher entities like gods was indicated by Karna in the cut-scene before the battle. Which, granted, is relevant since he's fighting against Quetz.



Only part that's jobbing is American singularity because Cu Alter should have died to VS. You can't argue Apoc was jobbing. That was his original portrayal, and what ultimately happened was that a shield with world-defense stopped VS while being destroyed itself. Other than that, Sieg was giving himself amps. That's not jobbing. That's pretty fair to Karna. Gawain with support might seem like jobbing for Karna until you realize that Karna's introduction to CCC had him being said to basically force Gilgamesh to get semi-serious (but he'd absolutely loose if he was), and that he was equal to, or "possibly" even be stronger than Gawain. Like it or not, Gawain being comparable to Karna is being consistent to dialogue. Blame Nasu if you don't like it. That is unless you think the statement was referring to was sunlight Gawain, if you really think Karna stands a hope in hell against him.

People just stuck to the Gilgamesh portion of the statement, and went out of control wanking him and the other Indian heroes that scale to him. In reality, we have a good idea where Karna stands in the hierarchy. He's equal to Achilles, and considering Herc is a preferable option to Achilles, a knight-class Herc is >= Karna, and Karna being marginally above Gawain might also make him scale nicely to Lancelot.




yep.

Armorless Karna is compared to Gawain. Kavacha and Numerals are implied to be similar buffs in Foxtail. So yes, you could say Gawain and Karna are equals as heroic spirits, but Gawain's is more situational, while Karna has more higher end feats than he does. There are few cases where you'd consider Gawain the better option. At least when some proper mana is being provided.

[Altaris]

Tbf though Gawain got much better Master luck.

But Karna vs Quetz is a fight that I'm willing to bet 9 out of 10 times to Quetzalcoatl, and i've always maintained my opinion that Quetz is the strongest Rider we've gotten so far in FGO

[SpoonyViking]

Christmas 2018 mention she does, but at a reduced level. Think it was half. If so, this might mean Chaldea! Quetz operates at 50% divinity like the latter half of Babylonia.

Interesting! If so, then even Servant!Quetz should be hella powerful.

[Tobias]

Didn’t we already know that? I mean, every event she is in everyone else shits their pants.

[Zork Knight]

I mean, she was split into two halves in Christmas 2018... And was still doing fine as a Servant, wasn't she?

[HeroOfTheAges]

What you're not factoring in is that 90% damage reduction doesn't matter if Quetz can bring out firepower strong enough to kill a servant more than 10x over. Destroying a cluster of bel lahmus is a strong enough feat to show that Karna's damage reduction won't cut it. Karna has to actively defend with his armor or get instantly killed.

I am not meaning that Karna could no sell the attacks. It could just give him an extra edge in the fight, as he would not only rely on armour for protection. He was able to tank a direct Balmung with only the armour and prana burst, so he would certainly tank the normal attacks at least.

Coughthe results weren't showncough. And before you say "well that'd be an awkward ending," bear in mind that Cu's ending was him fighting Gilgamesh. Truly being a lancer is suffering. I will say that Karna indicated damage scaling on higher entities like gods was indicated by Karna in the cut-scene before the battle. Which, granted, is relevant since he's fighting against Quetz.

I do not remember all the details, so had to look it up, but the circuit line is said to light up at the end of Karna's story, which indicates that the Sefar was defeated. So it is likely that he indeed beat it.

Only part that's jobbing is American singularity because Cu Alter should have died to VS. You can't argue Apoc was jobbing. That was his original portrayal, and what ultimately happened was that a shield with world-defense stopped VS while being destroyed itself. Other than that, Sieg was giving himself amps. That's not jobbing. That's pretty fair to Karna.

Apo was the initial potrayal, but the final volume of Apo, where the fight took place was released after CCC. But I digress. The problem is that in comparision to its peers, VS has been shown to be stopped/diverted wayy too maany times. Comparing it to NP's like Excalibur, Ea, Rhongo, Dendera etc, which have a ton of feats, and requires a huge effect to block, if that is possible , the main feat that VS has is just killing Sefar and breaking Kosmos. Instead of just jobbing out say BK, it is always VS that is stopped due to extraordinary circumstances.

Gawain with support might seem like jobbing for Karna until you realize that Karna's introduction to CCC had him being said to basically force Gilgamesh to get semi-serious (but he'd absolutely loose if he was), and that he was equal to, or "possibly" even be stronger than Gawain. Like it or not, Gawain being comparable to Karna is being consistent to dialogue. Blame Nasu if you don't like it. That is unless you think the statement was referring to was sunlight Gawain, if you really think Karna stands a hope in hell against him

.

At the start of the fight, Karna was fighting Gawain barehanded, while neither had their armour.

Also, the mooncell also seem to have some differences from the normal Nasuverse mechanics, in that Masters are way more important and Master-Servant compatability plays an even larger role than usual. Taking Gawain as an example, Gawain under Hakuno in one of the Extella games is said to tie with Lu Bu. However, Gawain in one of the Extra game/anime is able to beat Lu Bu under Rani and Cu under Rin at the same time. So Leo being his master has a huge increase on his general power. During the fight in Foxtail itself, Leo is able to cancel the activation of Kavacha, and also gives an Endurance boost to Gawain, on top of Numeral itself to deflect VS. Combine that with how Jinako was said/shown to be a bad master, and that was enough for Karna to lose.

Lancelot was able to pressure and beat Gawain by stalling out Numeral. Karna also has high end skill feats with piercing AoF, multiple statements that say he has gone beyond mankind and into the realm of the Gods, and a skill that shows he was skilled(lol) during his life, and he might have a chance even without armour. Lancelot has Eternal Arms Mastery due to sheer skill true, but that is in comparision to others in his own era, whereas it could that the general skill level during Karna's time period was higher due to people with similar skill levels such as Arjuna, Bhishma, Drona, Ash etc, and hence he cannot be declared as the best period in his time.

People just stuck to the Gilgamesh portion of the statement, and went out of control wanking him and the other Indian heroes that scale to him. In reality, we have a good idea where Karna stands in the hierarchy. He's equal to Achilles, and considering Herc is a preferable option to Achilles, a knight-class Herc is >= Karna, and Karna being marginally above Gawain might also make him scale nicely to Lancelot.

Also, even if people are wanking Karna's Gilgamesh statement, it still does not change the fact that the statement was made, hence Karna should still be in the same tier. Herc is a preferrable option to Achilles, yet at the same time there are servants and powerful Herc is beaten by that cannot touch Achilles (see Emiya, Shirou) and same applies the other way around. And if we are talking about hypothetical versions, such as pure Archer Herc, then we can also do the same such as Archer Karna, which should be his strongest class.



Regarding Karna vs Quetz, as I said before, Karna should generally lose. However, playing Devil's advocate:

Karna has 90% dmg reduction. Even with Divinity protection and if we are talking about 50% Quetz, then her damage reduction should not stack quite up to his.

It has been said that Xiuhcoatl will not actually damage her that much, and the backlash we saw in Babylonia was due to also taking in Piedra del Sol to boost it. Xiuhcoatl was also further boosted with a command seal, whose power we already know from Apo showing Balmung boosted to be on VS level. In spite of all these boosts, it was still unable to give Tiamat much damage beyond cracking her own. Normal Xiuhcoatl does not have much feats if any, and VS could possibly overwhelm it. Quetz authority hax should also not have much effect on VS, as it is Indra's spear, who is not a sun god, hence no Gulganna-like authority shenanigans. And if VS strikes her, it is a sure kill considering the huge amount of references to its power to stike down Gods. VS should also deal super effective damage to Quetz based on this quote:

An one-shot only spear of light that takes down even gods. A spear of mortality made out of lightning. When Indra snatched away the golden armor, since Karna's posture was much too noble, he thought that it had to be rewarded. Manifested by converting the golden armor, in exchange of a tremendous defensive power, a spear with a powerful "anti-god" performance is equipped

Piedra del Sol was said to have the power to destroy Uruk, a city. Brahmasthra Kundala could maybe offset that, with its anti country rating. There is a difference in rank, true, but there are also times that NP's with higher rank have been countered by lower rank nps, such as Kosmos vs VS . BK + Armour may beat Piedra.

All my above points are useless if Quetz has 100% immunity power or , more likely, if Kana decides to job. On paper, he has had most of the advantages, yet he has still lost the fights in Apo, Foxtail, and GO. If it was an isolated occurance that would be ok, but with all of it recurring over and over again, that is true jobbing.

[madarra]

Do we know if Nega-Genesis give Tiamat damage reduction besides outright imunitity to A++ and lower attacks?

Cuz people keep on pointing out that Xiuhcoatl "barely cracked tiamats horn" as if we have a basis to judge grail boosted Tiamats horns resilience. Or did the text say that 100% of the grails power was going into making Tiamat fly and not say... boosting her horn resilience so that she can lift her entire body by them.

[Zork Knight]

Do we know if Nega-Genesis give Tiamat damage reduction besides outright imunitity to A++ and lower attacks?

Cuz people keep on pointing out that Xiuhcoatl "barely cracked tiamats horn" as if we have a basis to judge grail boosted Tiamats horns resilience. Or did the text say that 100% of the grails power was going into making Tiamat fly and not say... boosting her horn resilience so that she can lift her entire body by them.

The A++ reduction is from Self-Modification

Nega-Genesis' description only states that it denies Evolution and negates Noble Phantasms from Man and Star-attribute Servants...

Though if it worked against Quetz, maybe it also denies Quetz as the creator of the current humanity?

[Ronove]

Do we know if Nega-Genesis give Tiamat damage reduction besides outright imunitity to A++ and lower attacks?

That's not Nega-Genesis. That's a flat immunity to attacks/NPs from servants of "Man" and "Star". It didn't proc against Quetzalcoatl.

Cuz people keep on pointing out that Xiuhcoatl "barely cracked tiamats horn" as if we have a basis to judge grail boosted Tiamats horns resilience. Or did the text say that 100% of the grails power was going into making Tiamat fly and not say... boosting her horn resilience so that she can lift her entire body by them.

Why are you bringing up a holy grail? Something like that is a drop in the ocean to a beast. The grail is just a mass of magic energy put into a container that would fill a servant's circuits with mana (unless they make a wish on said grail). Femme Fatale alone already has seven times that much mana in excess. Tiamat against Quetz would have no buffs from it because her well of mana is already ridiculous, especially as she is made of chaos tide. Something that gives her a limitless supply of magic energy from the beginning.

[Lily Emilio]

Though if it worked against Quetz, maybe it also denies Quetz as the creator of the current humanity?

The way I see it, it probably has more to do with the primordial divinity of genesis prior to Sefar attack that Quetz mentioned, like how when Ishtar was asked to intercept she also said she can't deal with the primordial divinity.

[SpoonyViking]

Didn’t we already know that? I mean, every event she is in everyone else shits their pants.

True, I just didn't think Servant!Quetz was so close to God!Quetz in power.

[Ronove]

True, I just didn't think Servant!Quetz was so close to God!Quetz in power.

Servant vessel doesn't matter much for her, because Mesoamerican gods used human vessels all the time.