By QuetzOriginally Posted by fire_mountain_30
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By Quetz
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That 100% does not mean she's stronger than aliens. It just means she's basically unkillable.
She has little to nothing in the way of offence, tbh. I doubt she could kill any of the Types, unless there's one that can be killed by Jojo-posing Lahmu. It'd be a draw.
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tiamat is a walking yo mama so fat joke.
Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.
Yo Mama is so fat that she swallowed the ocean, and was still hungry.
Yo Mama is so fat that when she fell into the underworld, she didn't fit.
It's more that we never actually saw her trying to fight to the fullest, because she held back for the most part, remember. Hydrogen bomb level blast that is already available in super sealed Femme Fatale state which can wipe out Uruk in 1 shot even when firing from the middle of the ocean -> suddenly never used in the 2nd form. You'd think something that potent would be the go-to offensive attack, especially when she has the infinite resource to spam it. The only attack she did in 2nd form was that eyebeam towards MC. Even the fight in the underworld only had her climbing, shooting some beams, trying to bite, or in the anime - using hax. But that's more or less because she's already weakened by that point. In term of raw physical strength, it's giant strength as per her Monstrous Strength skill, but we never saw her actually use any parts of her body to fight i.e melee combat with her arms, aside from just...beams. Majority of the destruction task falls back to the Lahmus.
Basically she has infinite magic energy resources to do w/e she wants, but most of the time she uses it to spawn Lahmus instead of coming up with some fancy deadly attacks (other than the bomb). Heck she doesn't even have a NP. She has insane durability, the physical strength of a giant, but she never fully utilized them. And that makes sense considering her designated job of being basically a terraforming mechanism than an offensive powerhouse.
Last edited by Lily Emilio; April 3rd, 2020 at 08:10 AM.
Hey now, what about all those energy attacks she used on her boss battle?
She also seems tailor-made to fight Sefar, considering there's not even a hint of civilisation to her.
Actually, couldn't she try to absorb and / or break down the Types or Sefar with her primordial mud?
The general impression is that Quetz's comment probably refers to Sefar, due to the line just before that mentioning that even gods have to follow the law of conservation of mass, something that restricted Sefar to only 7 stages on Earth. Tiamat is a 4D being with zero weight and infinite volume so she probably has an advantage on that. But I've seen some other speculations about that comment is a hint of her returning to fight the alien god in part 2.
I wouldn't completely discount the Lahmu (or whatever else she might spawn, given time). Humanity becomes eventually capable of taking down TYPEs, whose to say Tiamat's new kids won't?
Quetzalcoatl will return in Lostbelt 7
The generic laser beams that Servants were able to tank?
And I dunno if the earth mother's life absorption would work on alien life that a) isn't birthed from her, b) doesn't follow earth's order, and c) might not even count as life, given that they don't tend to have death.
True enough, but how long would that take? Assuming in this scenario she wouldn't have a Grail boost, the Lahmu would take even longer than they did ingame to spawn, and then evolve to winged form, and then to their Jojo phase, and then to a higher form that could solo a Servant, and then to a form that could take on those continent-wrecking, equivalent-to-a-planet's-ecosystem Types, who should each be able to put out a hell of a lot more damage than a halved-divinity, powered-by-already-tired-Guda Quetz.
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Nobody knew about Tiamat's immortality or weaknesses here. Roman only provides that info via schematics later on.
Her weakest, debilitated state can produce enough magic power to wipe out Uruk. The actually impressive bit being that she'd be launching it from the middle of the Persian gulf to reach there. Lahmu can punch through gods like Quetz no problem even without getting to the big 11.Tiamat's laser beams can blow holes through Gilgamesh's body. Otherwise there's chaos tide for corruption and Nega-genesis which was retconned into thanos snapping. The last pretty much takes care of any power issues tbh.She has little to nothing in the way of offence, tbh. I doubt she could kill any of the Types, unless there's one that can be killed by Jojo-posing Lahmu. It'd be a draw.
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Grail does nothing for Tiamat. It's just a vessel for magic energy. Gods have no need of them to begin with because their magic power reserves are already enormous. Lion King as an example summoned nearly the full roster of KotRT and had them operable at full strength using her own power. Each of Poseidon's 4 cores have as much mana as a grail as well. Tiamat had 7 times as much as a grail just as Femme Fatale.
True enough, but again, still no actual feats.
The lasers and lahmu punching don't mean a thing. It's not as if Gil & Quetz have armour or anything, stabbing them is just stabbing flesh and blood.Her weakest, debilitated state can produce enough magic power to wipe out Uruk. The actually impressive bit being that she'd be launching it from the middle of the Persian gulf to reach there. Lahmu can punch through gods like Quetz no problem even without getting to the big 11.Tiamat's laser beams can blow holes through Gilgamesh's body. Otherwise there's chaos tide for corruption and Nega-genesis which was retconned into thanos snapping. The last pretty much takes care of any power issues tbh.
The thanos snap might not affect life that isn't of her own lineage, it doesn't affect non-living things and, being the post powerful beings of their planet, they could just be able to laugh off the effect.
It's a Grail. By its very nature it's a wish granter, one taken by a standard, shit-tier lahmu gave it the power to shrug off Ishtar & Quetz at the same time, and even if it is "just" 1/7th of her total mana, that's still a freaking truckload of mana.Grail does nothing for Tiamat. It's just a vessel for magic energy. Gods have no need of them to begin with because their magic power reserves are already enormous. Lion King as an example summoned nearly the full roster of KotRT and had them operable at full strength using her own power. Each of Poseidon's 4 cores have as much mana as a grail as well. Tiamat had 7 times as much as a grail just as Femme Fatale.
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Assuming of course that the fight takes place on Earth, I would have a hard time seeing a Type killing Tiamat except as a very extended war of attrition, that would quite possibly involve them wandering around the planet and wiping out all other forms of life in the process.
But regardless of where they fight, I have an even harder time imagining Tiamat ever 'killing' a Type, acknowledging the poor terminology, just from what we've seen her do in canon. Chaos Tide is probably useless against them, since they are probably too foreign to be considered 'life,' and if big explosions were enough to beat a Type I would have a hard time imagining Notes ever being a thing that happens. So all things considered, I'd probably agree with eddyak that it'd be a draw in the end.
If Tiamat didn't have her plot armor, I would give it to the Types handily. But I say that fully aware we haven't really seen Tiamat properly fight. And as with all things in the Nasuverse, I'm sure there are some Types she'd be stronger against, and some she'd be weaker against.
...that makes me wonder. Do you think Type Venus was used as inspiration for Tiamat? They seem pretty similar, at least superficially.
My Fanfiction - Almost entirely short stories and oneshots
Before she even got the grail to fully awaken, she already spawned hundreds of millions, and that was literally just minutes, or even seconds, right after she woke up from Merlin's dream. Then those Lahmus instantly evolved from talking keyboard language to actually speaking words within the span of hours.
There's one thing you forgot, is that she has paradox restoration. Even you dealt enough damage to her and destroy her physical form, the restoration will restore her back. That's why underworld concept was needed, to disable this restoration or she will repeatedly come back. And the amount of time it takes is not even long. Just moments after her sealed form is destroyed, she already return. It's literally impossible to win a battle of attrition against her as long as that power is intact. Whichever Type trying to fight her better try and wipe all life on Earth first.and then to a form that could take on those continent-wrecking, equivalent-to-a-planet's-ecosystem Types, who should each be able to put out a hell of a lot more damage than a halved-divinity, powered-by-already-tired-Guda Quetz.
We don't know its limit yet, so it's pointless bringing it up now.
You got things backward. Non-living things are to be snapped. Living things being snapped is Surtr's thing. Also being the most powerful being of X planet doesn't mean they are immune to hax from beings from another planet. There is absolutely no reason to believe a conceptual hax like that will not have any effect, considering a conceptual weapon like Black Barrel was super effective on them.it doesn't affect non-living things and, being the post powerful beings of their planet, they could just be able to laugh off the effect.
Not quite. In FGO and Solomon's grail (Art Graph) in particular, the grail is just a large magic energy source crystallized. This is why later one you get a variation of other magic energy sources that turns into the grail for Chaldea to collect, such as the bunch of offerings to gods in Benienma event.It's a Grail. By its very nature it's a wish granter
The Lahmu is based on Enkidu, it is already quite strong by default even if mass produced. Even the lame ones already destroyed the grail-less Kingu.one taken by a standard, shit-tier lahmu gave it the power to shrug off Ishtar & Quetz at the same time
It's not 1/7 of her total mana, it's 1/7 of the amount the Femme Fatale form had. By the time she is released, the amount was enough for interstellar travel. In the anime the number prior to her hydro bomb was displayed as a few hundreds k on the screen, then the number skyrocket to ~11m when she charges the hydro bomb. When Femme Fatale was destroyed, this number jumped to ~40m and keep going up before the kaiju even get out of the water. From that point we never see that number screen again.and even if it is "just" 1/7th of her total mana, that's still a freaking truckload of mana.
Last edited by Lily Emilio; April 3rd, 2020 at 01:58 PM.
i would say that she fights via hax and non-directly damaging abilities, like the mud, same as Kiara, Sakura and Mara
It took hours for them to evolve to just speaking, somewhere between 12-18 hours to produce Jojo memelords, and those dudes are just Divine Spirit level. By that point, the battle's already decided. Either she's been destroyed, or it's a draw, or she's going to have to rely on a maybe chance that her kids might eventually become powerful enough, hax enough or just weird enough to destroy Types.
Wiping the planet of life was the reason the Types came in the first place. Notes powerlevels are pretty far above even FGO's inflated standards, Goetia's 3,000 years of prep to wipe the planet across space and time notwithstanding.There's one thing you forgot, is that she has paradox restoration. Even you dealt enough damage to her and destroy her physical form, the restoration will restore her back. That's why underworld concept was needed, to disable this restoration or she will repeatedly come back. And the amount of time it takes is not even long. Just moments after her sealed form is destroyed, she already return. It's literally impossible to win a battle of attrition against her as long as that power is intact. Whichever Type trying to fight her better try and wipe all life on Earth first.
You're misunderstanding me. I meant non-living things as in, rocks and clouds and water. It doesn't wipe out non-living matter, it just wipes anything that isn't a currently living human, and the Types are a terrifyingly diverse bunch. IIRC there was one that was basically a miniature Jupiter, a floating cross that dropped smaller versions of itself that exploded, one after being given mortality and being killed apparently just laughed it off and became a tree that infinitely spawned angels and could create a thinking, speaking terminal.You got things backward. Non-living things are to be snapped. Living things being snapped is Surtr's thing. Also being the most powerful being of X planet doesn't mean they are immune to hax from beings from another planet. There is absolutely no reason to believe a conceptual hax like that will not have any effect, considering a conceptual weapon like Black Barrel was super effective on them.
The main singularity Grails are wish granters either way, otherwise the Edgy OCs Jalter, Spam Santa Spamta & Cuzilla wouldn't exist.Not quite. In FGO and Solomon's grail (Art Graph) in particular, the grail is just a large magic energy source crystallized. This is why later one you get a variation of other magic energy sources that turns into the grail for Chaldea to collect, such as the bunch of offerings to gods in Benienma event.
I'm fairly sure you're massively underestimating the Types here- they're literally the pinnacle of all life on their planet, depending on how we take the angel's comments they're either metaphorically or literally the planet itself in miniature, and Tiamat is, when she becomes the kaiju, a Beast, a thing specifically created of mankind, to destroy mankind, which is to say she might not even be able to attack the Types.
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Said Jojo memelords completely destroyed Ishtar, who was summoned with powers pretty much the same as original, according to Kingu. Not only that, each of them are equal to multiple major demon pillars. 11 of them = 72 pillars of Goetia, you do the math.
Again, restoration. Heck, remember that the Lahmus also count as life. That's why underworld was needed.By that point, the battle's already decided. Either she's been destroyed, or it's a draw, or she's going to have to rely on a maybe chance that her kids might eventually become powerful enough, hax enough or just weird enough to destroy Types.
Except that Types yet to finish their job and some already got killed. You conveniently forgot that eight of them together came to attack the planet, not one at a time. And they still achieved not much against the neo-Humans. Also Goetia's goal was NOT to kill off humanity. Killing off humanity is a side effect of his plan, yes, a side effect. He needed more energy to do his ultra time travel, not to kill humans. And said amount of energy surpasses any amount the Earth can offer, capable of piercing the planet, and may or may not be able to wipe of Tiamat's Chaos Tide.Wiping the planet of life was the reason the Types came in the first place. Notes powerlevels are pretty far above even FGO's inflated standards, Goetia's 3,000 years of prep to wipe the planet across space and time notwithstanding.
Regardless of how weird they are, they are still the apex lifeform of their planet. They are life, not objects. Also w/e V/V did sounds similar to Tiamat actually. Terminal yes. Corpse that spawns Lahmu even after main body destroyed in Enkidu interlude, yes. And as Gil said, we sent her back to the imaginary number dimension. She's not even close to be dead dead.You're misunderstanding me. I meant non-living things as in, rocks and clouds and water. It doesn't wipe out non-living matter, it just wipes anything that isn't a currently living human, and the Types are a terrifyingly diverse bunch. IIRC there was one that was basically a miniature Jupiter, a floating cross that dropped smaller versions of itself that exploded, one after being given mortality and being killed apparently just laughed it off and became a tree that infinitely spawned angels and could create a thinking, speaking terminal.
They used the vast amount of magic energy to do w/e they want. That's the whole point of "wish granting". It's not wish upon a star or shit alike. You get this amazing amount of magic substance, you use it to do anything you can think of. And that amount is redundant to Tiamat. Heck, one of her own Authorities - Potnia Theron - is also extra. Sea of Life is her true Authority and it does the job much better.The main singularity Grails are wish granters either way, otherwise the Edgy OCs Jalter, Spam Santa Spamta & Cuzilla wouldn't exist.
Except that most of her abilities are not even tied to killing mankind. Authority of the Beast and Nega-Genesis are pretty much all she got to help her kill humanity better. All of her other innate stuffs stem from her powers as the goddess of Beginning Nammu, even the paradox revival is based on the fact that she is the goddess of life, like Quetz's Null Good. There is no reason to assume a Beast can only attack humanity, considering one of those literally wiped the time tree and even plan to remake the planet itself. A non-Berserk, non-Beast Tiamat would still have all of her innate abilities intact, minus the class skills of Beasts.I'm fairly sure you're massively underestimating the Types here- they're literally the pinnacle of all life on their planet, depending on how we take the angel's comments they're either metaphorically or literally the planet itself in miniature, and Tiamat is, when she becomes the kaiju, a Beast, a thing specifically created of mankind, to destroy mankind, which is to say she might not even be able to attack the Types.
Also being apex of a planet doesn't mean much when compare to another planet. You can be the top dude of your planet but can still lose to this memelord of this other planet due to compatibility. There is absolutely no reason to believe all Types are born equal and that they are stronger than everything on Earth just becuz they came in a party of 8 trying to take out neo-humans. They are strong entities, the best of their planet, but that doesn't mean they're all invincible, invulnerable and guaranteed to be stronger than some non-human entities on Earth.
If humans need 100 years to beat ORT while they need many hundreds years to deal with Tiamat, then I don't believe whatever the real Type Mercury is and the other Types are that super OP compare to the Beast. Heck I'd say Goetia might has enough raw firepower to destroy some of them and Kiara might be able to give them some taste of earth pleasure. No, I'd even say mecha Artemis can do some nasty damage depends on which one she fights.
Last edited by Lily Emilio; April 3rd, 2020 at 03:22 PM.
Still just Divine Spirit level. To put that in context, the Queen of Jobbers Scathach slaughters those on the regular.
Doesn't necessarily matter when it's absolutely alien aliens we're talking about. Tiamat has her hax, sure, but every single one of them will have their own hax.Again, restoration. Heck, remember that the Lahmus also count as life. That's why underworld was needed.
Wrong in every possible way. ORT came along before the others, then forgot what it was doing to do and fell asleep. A bunch of them, by the time Notes starts, are still trapped outside the planet thanks to whoever the heck turned the entire atmosphere into a barrier. They were literally wiping the planet clean, and anybody powerful enough to fight one, one on one, was considered so much of a threat that they were locked away by the earth's other defenders (see Ado). A single one of them wrecked a continent with its death scream. Not even some concentrated attack, just some Evangelion level Welp I'm Dead But You're All Coming With Me shit.You conveniently forgot that eight of them together came to attack the planet, not one at a time. And they still achieved not much against the neo-Humans.
They are life, but they're "life". Unrecognisable by Earth standards, most of them don't have lifespans, et cetera.Regardless of how weird they are, they are still the apex lifeform of their planet. They are life, not objects. Also w/e V/V did sounds similar to Tiamat actually. Terminal yes. Corpse that spawns Lahmu even after main body destroyed in Enkidu interlude, yes. And as Gil said, we sent her back to the imaginary number dimension. She's not even close to be dead dead.
Neither Medb nor Gilles have the ability to create or edit Heroic Spirits. The Grail was definitely doing some dodgy shit there.They used the vast amount of magic energy to do w/e they want. That's the whole point of "wish granting". It's not wish upon a star or shit alike. You get this amazing amount of magic substance, you use it to do anything you can think of. And that amount is redundant to Tiamat. Heck, one of her own Authorities - Potnia Theron - is also extra. Sea of Life is her true Authority and it does the job much better.
I agree, but they're still the strongest thing on a planet, and they hopped from their own planets to this one. By definition, their bare minimum for power is interstellar-travel-capable Tiamat. It's possible that some of them were just the most powerful lifeform on a planet where the strongest lifeforms could just barely bench 50kg, but I'm not counting on it.Also being apex of a planet doesn't mean much when compare to another planet. You can be the top dude of your planet but can still lose to this memelord of this other planet due to compatibility. There is absolutely no reason to believe all Types are born equal and that they are stronger than everything on Earth just becuz they came in a party of 8 trying to take out neo-humans.
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Conceptually Types are above Beasts
Alien being who transcends humans>cancer of humanity
Scathach killed those who fell into her realm, and was excited to fight...a shadow Artemis. Says a lot about how "strong" those she fought were. Divine Spirits are not born equal. And from the Jojo Lahmus showcase, they trashed one of the top divinities of Mesopotamia.
And until they showcase them if they ever come out in the future, there is absolutely no reason to assume their haxes will make them stronger than everything on Earth.Doesn't necessarily matter when it's absolutely alien aliens we're talking about. Tiamat has her hax, sure, but every single one of them will have their own hax.
Doesn't change the fact that they all came by Earth's call and appeared at the end of the neo-humans war as per the dictionary entry. Some got stuck, some got in, some got killed, one came early, one yet to show up. They still tried to come in and the people fought back, stopped them on their tracks. And all of that powerlvl vs a conceptual weapon of old. Imagine Atlas manage to mass produce Black Barrel or Barrel Replica, yeah they can come and get filled with holes. Like I said, powerlvl is meaningless when you got shit like Black Barrel that old humans could already use.A bunch of them, by the time Notes starts, are still trapped outside the planet thanks to whoever the heck turned the entire atmosphere into a barrier. They were literally wiping the planet clean, and anybody powerful enough to fight one, one on one, was considered so much of a threat that they were locked away by the earth's other defenders (see Ado). A single one of them wrecked a continent with its death scream. Not even some concentrated attack, just some Evangelion level Welp I'm Dead But You're All Coming With Me shit.
I highly doubt it. A conceptual weapon of Earth could add lifespan to them. If Earth standards cannot apply to them whatsoever, then Black Barrel shouldn't work. Heck their body is literally filled with an imaginary element of post-AoG Earth that happens to get instant rekt when coming into contact with True Ether. So no, I don't believe they are exclusive. Earth saw many extraterrestrial lifeforms b4, still treat them as lifeforms. Kiara can literally mindfuck alien lifeforms of other planets. There is no reason to believe they are that special until it is a thing.Unrecognisable by Earth standards, most of them don't have lifespans, et cetera.
There's nothing dodgy here. The Art Graph provides a method that, according to Da Vinci, "allow the usage of magic energy in a space". You have magic energy, you have the pre-programmed method, you do it. In the case of the Babylonia one, its purpose is to awaken Tiamat. Both Kingu and the flying Lahmu was only able to use it as energy source, just like how Chaldea could only use the grails from the singularities as magic energy source. You literally need to program something to it to utilize the magic energy, even depends on who Goetia chose, or its just a mass of magic energy.Neither Medb nor Gilles have the ability to create or edit Heroic Spirits. The Grail was definitely doing some dodgy shit there.
And I never disagree that they are indeed strong. I am saying that just because they are strong doesn't mean they definitely stronger than everything Fate had to offer. Mecha Olympus gods hopped from w/e planet, probably even outside our solar system or some other galaxy to this planet, Velber doing w/e out there in space, Outer Gods immune to even the rule of this universe, a joke goddess is a living galaxy....etc. With those things around I don't see in any way that these Types are much higher in the ranks, until I actually see proof of that.I agree, but they're still the strongest thing on a planet, and they hopped from their own planets to this one. By definition, their bare minimum for power is interstellar-travel-capable Tiamat. It's possible that some of them were just the most powerful lifeform on a planet where the strongest lifeforms could just barely bench 50kg, but I'm not counting on it.
TLDR: I see no reason to assume anything about the Types until they actually show anything in the current neo-TM era. To me, they are already powercrept and need overhaul to live up to w/e the Notes fans are saying. You can keep your opinion, and so will I.
Last edited by Lily Emilio; April 3rd, 2020 at 05:12 PM.
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