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Thread: Badass Versus Thread

  1. #125341
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six SpoonyViking's Avatar
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    Can I just point out again how people keep talking about the one attack Achilles never used in the actual novel as if it's an invincible super move? You'd think if it actually were that good he'd have actually used it in the story at some point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeadDemon View Post
    We don't know how strong this is, but seeing it as equivalent to an A+ offensive Noble Phantasm seems reasonable in my eyes. At the same time it's the special mode of his trump card, so it probably costs a fair amount, but Cu Alter hardly seems like Mr. Efficiency himself.
    I'd argue it's not really equivalent to an A+ offensive NP. The Rank reflects its defensive power, not necessarily force and weight. Plus, exactly because it's a crushing attack that I think someone sufficiently strong - I'm thinking Herakles, Asterios and Cú Alter, possibly Gorgon!Medusa - can lift it or resist it long enough until Achilles runs out of energy.

    As for Cú, I fully agree, but that's why I asked if we're using the Chaldea Servant version or the Grail-empowered one, the one fought in the Singularity.

  2. #125342
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Zork Knight's Avatar
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    Because they decided to use the shield for something else (blocking out the strongest NP in the Novel) and wanted to save the big reveal of the world's bestest shield for that moment?

  3. #125343
    Quote Originally Posted by AAM1232 View Post
    I'm still not seeing how Cu Alter is going to get past a practically invincible speedy shieldbash that he's not shown he can bypass at all or avoid.
    really fast moving chariot with a bounded field at the tip is actually just a weird arrow so protection from arrows applies

  4. #125344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zork Knight View Post
    Because they decided to use the shield for something else (blocking out the strongest NP in the Novel) and wanted to save the big reveal of the world's bestest shield for that moment?
    I'm just saying, people stick so much with that single line in the mats, you'd think that's all Achilles was. It's a disservice to the character, and I'm not even a fan.

  5. #125345
    Quote Originally Posted by AAM1232 View Post
    The only thing that has beaten Kosmos is VS.

    you may as well have said


    "the only thing that has beaten teenager Shirou's Rho Aias was Ea. "insert heroic spirit X" has nothing on par with Ea"

    measuring things by the "overkill" and "single use" standard. great idea. assuming that the most disproportionate ammount of power ever used is the only thing that could work.

    reminder that before that, VS clashed with a buffed Balmung that was on par with it, so good luck proving that VS hit cosmos with 100% of its power

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpoonyViking View Post
    If the shield can crush people, then it's a physical object, not just extradimensional shenanigans like Avalon. If it's a physical object, it can be resisted .
    crazy idea here. jump and pleace yourself paralel to the ground and flex your knees and jump off the shield to minimize the impact.

    that is what i would instantly do if i was a superhuman facing a bashing attack on an open field if i couldnt dodge it

  6. #125346
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors AAM1232's Avatar
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    I mean you'll have to show how Cu Alter would straight up dodge an attack from someone with an NP that makes them faster than everyone else. Or that it costs a fair amount, considering one of the reasons why Astolfo could borrow it apart from his own legends is that it doesn't need much power and skill to be used.

    And if we're gonna talk about mana drain, why are we assuming that Cu Alter is cost efficient either?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fire_mountain_30 View Post
    you may as well have said


    "the only thing that has beaten teenager Shirou's Rho Aias was Ea. "insert heroic spirit X" has nothing on par with Ea"

    measuring things by the "overkill" and "single use" standard. great idea. assuming that the most disproportionate ammount of power ever used is the only thing that could work.

    reminder that before that, VS clashed with a buffed Balmung that was on par with it, so good luck proving that VS hit cosmos with 100% of its power

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    crazy idea here. jump and pleace yourself paralel to the ground and flex your knees and jump off the shield to minimize the impact.

    that is what i would instantly do if i was a superhuman facing a bashing attack on an open field if i couldnt dodge it
    Or you could stop making ridiculous assumptions for no reason and you know, use some logic when it comes to things.

  7. #125347
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Blastedspider's Avatar
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    The fact that best attack Achilles got is "stick shield out while on chariot" is just plain sad.

  8. #125348
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    Wait for Berserker Achilles who can call a blood flood from the Scamander

    Coming: never

  9. #125349
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six SpoonyViking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AAM1232 View Post
    And if we're gonna talk about mana drain, why are we assuming that Cu Alter is cost efficient either?
    Because as has been explicitly stated before (at least twice), we're not working with Servant!Cú Alter, we're working with the Cú Alter that's the final boss of America - you know, the one *directly empowered by the Grail*.

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    For comparison's sake, *that* Cú Chulainn survived a direct hit from Vasavi Shakti. To be fair, he was so injured he had to retreat, but considering it's implied VS can kill at least a base-form *Sefar*...

  10. #125350
    Quote Originally Posted by AAM1232 View Post
    I mean you'll have to show how Cu Alter would straight up dodge an attack from someone with an NP that makes them faster than everyone else.

    yeah, key point there buddy

    "faster than everyone else"

    A- by how much?

    B- only at sprinting and in a straight line from what we know.


    so besides that, please prove that he is faster than his chariot, which has been continuously and casually dodged (i see different takes in different places in regards to him being faster than his chariot or not)

    also, please remember that Achilles took several attempts with that amazing speed of his to get into melee range when he was following him into the forrest. he couldnt overtake him while he was travelling to said forrest and several times did Chiron shift locations despite Achilles' pursuit and constant attempts at getting him

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    Quote Originally Posted by AAM1232 View Post
    Or you could stop making ridiculous assumptions for no reason and you know, use some logic when it comes to things.

    you first buddy.

    i wonder in how many forums does your attitude need to get called out before you are able to use anything besides disdainful dismissals in a conversation and actually start arguing your position from a position of factual security and tactical developments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CO9p5JMGv!p9 View Post
    really fast moving chariot with a bounded field at the tip is actually just a weird arrow so protection from arrows applies
    can someone who has read the full Atlantis portion please elaborate on how Achilles used his energy efficient shield bashing to single handedly defeat all enemy servants that could never hope to keep up with him or pierce his defenses and single handedly cleared the lostbelt like the memetic mega chad that certain people seem to believe that he is?

  11. #125351
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire_mountain_30 View Post
    you may as well have said


    "the only thing that has beaten teenager Shirou's Rho Aias was Ea. "insert heroic spirit X" has nothing on par with Ea"

    measuring things by the "overkill" and "single use" standard. great idea. assuming that the most disproportionate ammount of power ever used is the only thing that could work.

    reminder that before that, VS clashed with a buffed Balmung that was on par with it, so good luck proving that VS hit cosmos with 100% of its power

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    crazy idea here. jump and pleace yourself paralel to the ground and flex your knees and jump off the shield to minimize the impact.

    that is what i would instantly do if i was a superhuman facing a bashing attack on an open field if i couldnt dodge it
    False equivalence. Ea without max setting punched through Rho Aias but more or less did little to Shirou. That means the shield did its job and Ea was only barely more powerful. This is just a power game.

    Akhilleus Kosmos vs Vasavi Shatki was concepts vs concepts. VS destroyed the gods in Achilles' world through it's anti-divine nature, but it couldn't destroy the land. That's the whole point of the shield and how it differs from Avalon and Lord Camelot...which aren't even the same like you tried to equate. LC will protect what the user wants to protect so long as their willpower remains ironclad. Avalon doesn't physically interact with anything and shifts Saber to a far-off dimension. Kosmos blocks via technicality. It projects a world so to destroy the shield, you have to be able to destroy everything inside that world. This is the reason why anti-world and likely anti-planet attacks are its weakness. Range matters more than power here. VS wasn't sufficient so Astolfo survived with a singed arm. In the anime, he took no damage whatsoever.

    And Vasavi didn't lose a shred of power battling Balmung. The LN says both noble phantasms had equal strength but Karna's willpower beat Sieg. Physics was thrown out the window here. If VS had been buffered by Balmung, it would have lost all its power. Kosmos wouldn't have been necessary and Sieg would have just tanked the NP same way as Heracles tanked Caladbolg.

  12. #125352
    feel free the volume 5 Apo translation that you seem to have at your fingertips

  13. #125353
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire_mountain_30 View Post
    can someone who has read the full Atlantis portion please elaborate on how Achilles used his energy efficient shield bashing to single handedly defeat all enemy servants that could never hope to keep up with him or pierce his defenses and single handedly cleared the lostbelt like the memetic mega chad that certain people seem to believe that he is?
    Achilles didn't even have his shield in atlantis. The explanation was "It's not available." Like always, he's prevented from using his powerset for contrived reasons because it would be too convenient for the setting. That's why he has to give away his divine armor, and you also met him with his heel shot out. The story doesn't explain how that happened either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fire_mountain_30 View Post
    feel free the volume 5 Apo translation that you seem to have at your fingertips
    「『蒼天囲みし小世界』ー!!」
    瞬間。盾に刻まれた世界が動き出し、膨れ上がった。極小の世界が盾の前面に展開され、
    空間と時間を再構築した。
    神殺しの槍に唯一対抗し得るは、まさに世界そのものである防御宝具。
    授受の契約を交わし、何より互いの意志が統一されている以上ーこの盾は一時である“黒”のライ ダーの宝具と して起動する。

    「ぐ、う、っう。。。!!」
    神殺しの槍が世界に食い込み、破壊しようとする。恐るべき威力で世界を溶解させ、沸騰させ、蹂 躙する。
    だが、しかし。
    「嘘、だろ……」
    カウレスが絶句する。無敵とも思えた槍の光は、完全に盾に阻まれていた。
    神を殺す槍『日輪よ、死に随え』ならば、"唯一つ"であるあらゆる存在を滅ぼすだろう。
    人も、軍、城も、何もかも。
    しかし、神を殺せても世界は殺せない。神を滅ぼしたところで、神が不在の世界になるだけでしか ない。広大な る天と地と海は神が滅びようが茫洋と広がり、総体としての人類は凱歌を掲げ続ける。
    それこそが、アキレウスの生きた、“世界"。
    神殺しに対抗し得るは、まさに世界そのもの。
    掲げた腕が折れる。歯を食い縛り、もう一方の腕で折れた腕を支えた。激痛のシグナルをただ愚直 に堪えて“黒 ”のライダーは声高らかに叫ぶ。
    Even using google translate will help you read the thing.
    Last edited by Ronove; April 20th, 2020 at 01:17 PM.

  14. #125354
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Blastedspider's Avatar
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    "What is its weakness?"
    "It is only weak against something that can destroy a World or a Planet".

    God, why is this so horrible.
    Last edited by Blastedspider; April 20th, 2020 at 02:44 PM.

  15. #125355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blastedspider View Post
    "What is it weakness?"
    "It is only weak against something that can destroy a World or a Planet".

    God, why is this so horrible.
    "Its weak point is the head!"

  16. #125356
    On the Holy Night Reign's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronove View Post
    you also met him with his heel shot out. The story doesn't explain how that happened either.
    This is a tangent but how long had Achilles been fighting Chiron by that point? If their first encounter was offscreen it was probably Antares Snipe that got his heel, like in Apo.

  17. #125357
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors AAM1232's Avatar
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    Achilles in Atlantis had no shield for unknown reasons, gave up his armour for Aegis-Eclipse and 2 arrows, and had his heel shot by LB Chiron, taking away 2 NPs in one go. Even then he could stall for a while vs LB Chiron and the enemy forces while Orion was shooting at Artemis.

    And if we're using Grail linked Cu Alter, I'm not sure why we should just pretend like Achilles has a random master when he's been connected to the Greater Grail in Apocrypha. So why are we pretending like Achilles should have mana issues?

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    Quote Originally Posted by fire_mountain_30 View Post
    yeah, key point there buddy

    "faster than everyone else"

    A- by how much?

    B- only at sprinting and in a straight line from what we know.


    so besides that, please prove that he is faster than his chariot, which has been continuously and casually dodged (i see different takes in different places in regards to him being faster than his chariot or not)

    also, please remember that Achilles took several attempts with that amazing speed of his to get into melee range when he was following him into the forrest. he couldnt overtake him while he was travelling to said forrest and several times did Chiron shift locations despite Achilles' pursuit and constant attempts at getting him

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    you first buddy.

    i wonder in how many forums does your attitude need to get called out before you are able to use anything besides disdainful dismissals in a conversation and actually start arguing your position from a position of factual security and tactical developments.

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    can someone who has read the full Atlantis portion please elaborate on how Achilles used his energy efficient shield bashing to single handedly defeat all enemy servants that could never hope to keep up with him or pierce his defenses and single handedly cleared the lostbelt like the memetic mega chad that certain people seem to believe that he is?
    When you have something worth saying that isn't vaguely sniping and acting like you know me, feel free to post it. Otherwise why bother posting arguments that ignore various circumstances to make it sound like you have a point?

  18. #125358
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six SpoonyViking's Avatar
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    AAM, you realise you're not actually the one who set up the versus, right? You can't change parameters willy-nilly.

    (Also, I *have* taken into account that Achilles may have been hooked to the Grail.)

  19. #125359
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors AAM1232's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpoonyViking View Post
    AAM, you realise you're not actually the one who set up the versus, right? You can't change parameters willy-nilly.

    (Also, I *have* taken into account that Achilles may have been hooked to the Grail.)
    I'm not though? I'm just not assuming that Achilles is going to burn out like you think. As much of a big deal his mana usage is, it's either negated by a good power source (Apocrypha and Apo event) or that he's nerfed a lot (Atlantis), reducing his mana costs by removing his NPs.

  20. #125360
    Tbh I expect Cuzerker to use more fuel than even Ach.

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