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Thread: Badass Versus Thread

  1. #125821
    Who would win in a fight between Romulus-Quirinus and Gilgamesh?

  2. #125822
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Menwearpink's Avatar
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    A lot of it is the answer to most Gil fights.
    otherwise wait for mats

  3. #125823
    pulls out anti-rome noble phantasm or whatever
    yeah wait for mats

  4. #125824
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Menwearpink's Avatar
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    Golden city Uruk vs Golden city Rome.

    iteration 1 vs iteration 2 really

  5. #125825
    crossover VS
    Spoiler:

    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    Since this is gil he would job and die to a total normal thing htat most people would dodge or survive

    But in all seriousness dont most naruto character out stat most fate characters even at the most stupid interpretations like apocrypha anime
    Late reply but................

    Answer is a solid no. Naruto characters only outstat Fate characters if you cherry pick/highball Naruto feats while not operating on the same standards for Fate. For instance, the "lightspeed" feat Naruto himself has is no more valid than, say, Iskandar and Gilgamesh having the ability to dodge Excalibur. Shounen feats are largely examples of "a lie repeated becomes the truth."

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    I'm fairly sure that by the final arcs everyone who was fighting in the ninja war gets scaled to massively supersonic (which is just one more of the reasons the manga became such a dumpster fire by the end). So yes, depending on which Fate we take as canon your basic ninja mook are on par with or even outspeed Servants.

    And then there's the real laughable cases, like Madara.
    The fodder speed is not quantifiable since we don't have a time frame. Any calc would be conjecture, because you'd have to "measure" the time through a long fight with a lot of dialogue. The maps you find online are fan-drawn as well, so they're be scaling a non-cannon map of distance with an unkown time. Arguments don't get more bullshit than that. On the subject of cannon feats, Zero has statements for servants that go anywhere from supersonic to sub-lightspeed. Strange/Fake scales A+ agility (in this case, just a bit over A-rank and not double) to lightning, and made it painfully obvious it was meant to be literal.

    Basically, if anyone makes a crossover VS debates, a standard needs to be established. Do we take the best possible feats in each series and composite them, or do we go by consistency? It quickly devolves into nonsense otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kabalisto Koga View Post
    Also About if Nin jutsu are either be something similar like spells or if especially the seishitsuenka jutsu like Kisame Trademark Suikodan no jutsu be something like "mini-astras" i say more the later one as im curious how it would be act ith the clash of a smal~medium sized Excaliber stream vs Kisames Suiton Daikodan no jutsu as it similar to Samahada absorb Chakra/respective Mana froom the opposing technique/attack .
    Kisame, even by the most wild speculation, isn't close to planetary-scale destruction. Excalibur is planetary more often than not by statements. A small-medium Excalibur is just instant death for Kisame.

    About Sandaime Raikage vs Herakless i meant lesser with God hando in min d more like that both would have quite similar physical power which would make the base for an Epic wrestle like power fight have i thought .
    Well, that depends. Do you scale Heracles to Shirou's statements that he can take down a house or two with a single strike, which was a vast underestimation (his shock at seeing Herc's real abilities later on)? Do you use the statement that, against Salter, he used an attack that could destroy a mountain? Do you scale Herc to Gilgamesh, whom has mountain-busting blades according to Zero? Do you scale him as a stronger Alcides with his strength feats ranging from sending fragments of a hill up ridiculously high and is easily city-level? Most interpretations of Herc ends very badly for Raikage.

    About Hinata can i agree with you but here must i admit that we saw in Boruto not much Action from the now parent Generation and im honestly quite dissapointed how the kage and especially Naruto and Sasuke are nerfed there i mean i understand that some of them can Train as excesive like before and i understand hat there the kiddies especially Boruto are much stronger as naruto co in their age , oh whopsie sorry i had o ne time to release some steam by this Chance do you see Boruto the anime ?
    I wouldn't call a ransengan that sends an enemy into the atmosphere in a huge explosion a nerf. If anything, the adult versions of Naruto and Sasuke are the ones with truly ridiculous outlier feats.

    to Comeback are the most shinobi in Terms of agilty i would say between C~B in servant Parameter . and Shikamaru is actually more Brains as Brawns and despite that he couldnt defeat self strenght wise defeat servnts like Arthoria or Emiya am i shure that he could come up with a plan as his strategic prowess would i say is comparable with those for Chen Gong or Zhuge Liang and if Shikimaru would be summoned as Servant can i see that he will be a Strategist type Caster with a noblephantasm that is based on the fullfilment of the " Shinobi Rengougen no jutsu" plan that his Father started so could i imagine that he may be stronger as it seems at first. think here how he defeated Hidan by Devising a plan to do so .
    I'd say that, with the average feats, a fodder shinobi without using body flicker scales to an average magi. Kid Rock Lee is far faster than the average ninja and faster than Naruto in base.

    Shikimaru can make good plans. That's it. Nothing measures up to Mind's Eye. The fact that it can counter speed so fast, that it's invisible to the user, and it allows a servant to make plans to win battles that otherwise has a success rate below 1% is in another league entirely. Shikimaru's intelligence doesn't mean he's developed tactics of that level.

    and please tell me after youur oppinion if Chuchulain would use Gabolg against Kakuzu would it hit alll give hearts ,i wonder ?
    One target, one heart. Not a problem when he has more uses under a less than ideal master than Kazuku has hearts.

    exact as also i wnder how many Servants could do something if Madara shoots Meteor at them .
    Anyone with an anti-army NP and that might not be needed. Consider the physicality of servants, and what is a missile relative to them.


    You know, I think CCC foxtail is having me reconsider how I ranked sword skills thanks to Suzuka VS Raiko. Now I'm convinced that the "boasted as peerless" part of Eternal Arms Mastery is just that, a boast. Raiko had pretty much identical performance against Suzuka as Gawain did. Now Gawain being stated by Fate/Extra as rivaling Lancelot in sword-skill isn't so far-fetched if he has similar performance that also has EAM A+. I'm now of the opinion that the reason why Lancelot was able to hold back Gawain until nighttime, and then win was due to Arondight's abilities, and had little to do with a skill gap. Lancelot overwhelming Saber might be entirely due to his combined stat boosts more than his skill(which is pretty consistent considering it zeroed in on Artoria being overpowered, not loosing to things like feints). At this point, I'd say Artoria, Gawain, Lancelot, Raiko, Karna, Achilles, Siegfried, and Hector are all relative to one another in skill.

  6. #125826
    Lost in Paradise RoydGolden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Can't Believe It's Not A NoblePhantasm View Post
    You know, I think CCC foxtail is having me reconsider how I ranked sword skills thanks to Suzuka VS Raiko. Now I'm convinced that the "boasted as peerless" part of Eternal Arms Mastery is just that, a boast. Raiko had pretty much identical performance against Suzuka as Gawain did. Now Gawain being stated by Fate/Extra as rivaling Lancelot in sword-skill isn't so far-fetched if he has similar performance that also has EAM A+. I'm now of the opinion that the reason why Lancelot was able to hold back Gawain until nighttime, and then win was due to Arondight's abilities, and had little to do with a skill gap. Lancelot overwhelming Saber might be entirely due to his combined stat boosts more than his skill(which is pretty consistent considering it zeroed in on Artoria being overpowered, not loosing to things like feints). At this point, I'd say Artoria, Gawain, Lancelot, Raiko, Karna, Achilles, Siegfried, and Hector are all relative to one another in skill.
    Worth noting that EAM's only mechanical effect (as in, aside from flavor-text) is letting the Servant retain their techniques while under the effects of mental interference. It doesn't mean they're automatically more skilled than any opponent, which probably isn't even something quantifiable given all the weird fighting-styles Servants have.

  7. #125827
    Quote Originally Posted by RoydGolden View Post
    Worth noting that EAM's only mechanical effect (as in, aside from flavor-text) is letting the Servant retain their techniques while under the effects of mental interference. It doesn't mean they're automatically more skilled than any opponent, which probably isn't even something quantifiable given all the weird fighting-styles Servants have.
    Right, but the peerless part seemed like a definitive statement. Now it's clearly established as BS unless we're saying all the swordsman of Raiko's era are awful compared to the knights under Artoria.

  8. #125828
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Menwearpink's Avatar
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    It’s chuuni fluff. You can assume anyone with that skill can fight really well with most things and ect. Just like how bravery means yeah you punch really well in wrestling and such, or that EoTM also means you fight well.

  9. #125829
    The Plesioth Hip Check of life Deathhappens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Can't Believe It's Not A NoblePhantasm View Post
    crossover VS
    Spoiler:



    Late reply but................

    Answer is a solid no. Naruto characters only outstat Fate characters if you cherry pick/highball Naruto feats while not operating on the same standards for Fate. For instance, the "lightspeed" feat Naruto himself has is no more valid than, say, Iskandar and Gilgamesh having the ability to dodge Excalibur. Shounen feats are largely examples of "a lie repeated becomes the truth."



    The fodder speed is not quantifiable since we don't have a time frame. Any calc would be conjecture, because you'd have to "measure" the time through a long fight with a lot of dialogue. The maps you find online are fan-drawn as well, so they're be scaling a non-cannon map of distance with an unkown time. Arguments don't get more bullshit than that. On the subject of cannon feats, Zero has statements for servants that go anywhere from supersonic to sub-lightspeed. Strange/Fake scales A+ agility (in this case, just a bit over A-rank and not double) to lightning, and made it painfully obvious it was meant to be literal.

    Basically, if anyone makes a crossover VS debates, a standard needs to be established. Do we take the best possible feats in each series and composite them, or do we go by consistency? It quickly devolves into nonsense otherwise.



    Kisame, even by the most wild speculation, isn't close to planetary-scale destruction. Excalibur is planetary more often than not by statements. A small-medium Excalibur is just instant death for Kisame.



    Well, that depends. Do you scale Heracles to Shirou's statements that he can take down a house or two with a single strike, which was a vast underestimation (his shock at seeing Herc's real abilities later on)? Do you use the statement that, against Salter, he used an attack that could destroy a mountain? Do you scale Herc to Gilgamesh, whom has mountain-busting blades according to Zero? Do you scale him as a stronger Alcides with his strength feats ranging from sending fragments of a hill up ridiculously high and is easily city-level? Most interpretations of Herc ends very badly for Raikage.



    I wouldn't call a ransengan that sends an enemy into the atmosphere in a huge explosion a nerf. If anything, the adult versions of Naruto and Sasuke are the ones with truly ridiculous outlier feats.



    I'd say that, with the average feats, a fodder shinobi without using body flicker scales to an average magi. Kid Rock Lee is far faster than the average ninja and faster than Naruto in base.

    Shikimaru can make good plans. That's it. Nothing measures up to Mind's Eye. The fact that it can counter speed so fast, that it's invisible to the user, and it allows a servant to make plans to win battles that otherwise has a success rate below 1% is in another league entirely. Shikimaru's intelligence doesn't mean he's developed tactics of that level.



    One target, one heart. Not a problem when he has more uses under a less than ideal master than Kazuku has hearts.



    Anyone with an anti-army NP and that might not be needed. Consider the physicality of servants, and what is a missile relative to them.


    You know, I think CCC foxtail is having me reconsider how I ranked sword skills thanks to Suzuka VS Raiko. Now I'm convinced that the "boasted as peerless" part of Eternal Arms Mastery is just that, a boast. Raiko had pretty much identical performance against Suzuka as Gawain did. Now Gawain being stated by Fate/Extra as rivaling Lancelot in sword-skill isn't so far-fetched if he has similar performance that also has EAM A+. I'm now of the opinion that the reason why Lancelot was able to hold back Gawain until nighttime, and then win was due to Arondight's abilities, and had little to do with a skill gap. Lancelot overwhelming Saber might be entirely due to his combined stat boosts more than his skill(which is pretty consistent considering it zeroed in on Artoria being overpowered, not loosing to things like feints). At this point, I'd say Artoria, Gawain, Lancelot, Raiko, Karna, Achilles, Siegfried, and Hector are all relative to one another in skill.

    Please don't encourage them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RoydGolden View Post
    Worth noting that EAM's only mechanical effect (as in, aside from flavor-text) is letting the Servant retain their techniques while under the effects of mental interference. It doesn't mean they're automatically more skilled than any opponent, which probably isn't even something quantifiable given all the weird fighting-styles Servants have.
    Raikou's version also specifically states that she can fight well even if she loses her weapons. Fate isn't an RPG, there's no real point in separating description and mechanics (even if Nasu loves throwing RPG terms in his descriptions). Eternal Arms Mastery is a skill about being able to weapon so good that being able to weapon becomes a part of your legend.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by I Can't Believe It's Not A NoblePhantasm View Post
    Right, but the peerless part seemed like a definitive statement. Now it's clearly established as BS unless we're saying all the swordsman of Raiko's era are awful compared to the knights under Artoria.
    It's hardly "BS" just because Raikou didn't mop the floor with Suzuka in one fight. I don't read Foxtail so I can't comment on the fight itself but it's a well known fact that compatibility between Servants plays a much bigger role than who can beamu and/or sordfight better.
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  10. #125830
    Inactive Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    If we're talking about compatibility then the manga stated in the beginning that Raikou's Mystery Killer skill provides her great compatibility advantage against Suzuka who is the daughter of Tenma (in FGO the skill gives Anti-Divine bonus damage, and Suzuka has extremely high divinity).


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  11. #125831
    The Voidmaster Clyton's Avatar
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    Saber Diarmuid vs Artoria, with the exact same setting in Fate/Zero, except:

    Diarmuid has Gae Dearg instead of Beagalltach (to fit his dual 1 sword, 1 spear style), and he still has Mind's Eye (True) and Knight Tactics.

    Would it go relatively the same, or would there be major changes at points that can shift the favour decisively for one side?

  12. #125832
    Bad News LeadDemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clyton View Post
    Saber Diarmuid vs Artoria, with the exact same setting in Fate/Zero, except:

    Diarmuid has Gae Dearg instead of Beagalltach (to fit his dual 1 sword, 1 spear style), and he still has Mind's Eye (True) and Knight Tactics.

    Would it go relatively the same, or would there be major changes at points that can shift the favour decisively for one side?
    I would say it depends on what Moralltach does. In terms of combat ability, Diarmuid's not super unchanged by the class change- his parameters are a little different, but the change to CON isn't super relevant here. He loses a modifier in STR, gains one in AGI, but also gains Jump Good to compensate on the AGI side. I don't see a significant enough change in his melee ability besides maybe making him more able to directly trade with Saber.

    The most obvious difference is obviously Moralltach, which has a fate manipulation ability that guarantees him 'victory'. The true name release is nice but less relevant here, given who he's up against, I'd say. We don't really know what the fate manipulation power equates to in a more crunchy mechanical sense, but keeping in mind what LCK is, and that under Kiritsugu, Saber's LCK is hot garbage, fate manipulation abilities should wind up being pretty potent against her. It's a similar shtick as to why Cu would probably just be able to beat Kiritsugu!Saber with a Gae Bolg, if he had the chance to get it off.

    Then the question is what guaranteeing 'victory' actually means, where the biggest reference we have for that is the old napkin notes on 'absolute survival' Gil vs 'absolute victory' Herc, where you 'die but win' and 'survive but lose'. That's obviously much more of a narrative thing than a simulated versus thing, so it's a bit of a mess to parse 'decisively'.

    Ultimately I'd say the swap from Gae Buidhe to Moralltach and the slight parameter benefits he gets would benefit him in the fight, so we could expect a better performance than in Zero, but as to what the fight would actually look like, it's hard to say since we don't really know how his big trump card sword actually does its thing.

  13. #125833
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six SpoonyViking's Avatar
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    Worth noting that Raikou was winning that fight until Suzuka pulled a Noble Phantasm which basically lets her predict the future - and even then, she said Raikou would have still won if she had assumed her Ushi-Gozen form.
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  14. #125834
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post

    It's hardly "BS" just because Raikou didn't mop the floor with Suzuka in one fight. I don't read Foxtail so I can't comment on the fight itself but it's a well known fact that compatibility between Servants plays a much bigger role than who can beamu and/or sordfight better.
    I'm referring to the swordsmanship performance. When Gawain fought Suzuka, she was having notable difficulty with him, but was confident in the long game, which Leo was cautious about and wanted to end things quickly. Gawain was handling everything Suzuka threw at him in their short bout.

    As for Raiko, she was dominating the fight. Suzuka could only really hold her at bay with telekinesis, but then her INT NP (which she used against Gawain for an even fight) immediately changed the nature of the fight. She landed a scratch on Raiko, whom asserted it was proof that Suzuka's predictions began to surpass her own, and acknowledged that the longer the fight went, the better it would be for Suzuka. At best, Raiko had comparable performance to Gawain when both are power duelists. You might argue Gawain has a stat advantage, but that's undercut by ME, when Suzuka stated that her strength was just as insane as Caligula's. Considering Raiko has A-rank strength, and Caligula has A+, it's a very good indicator that Raiko's listed stats are her base stats, and ME improves them (kind of like Herc TBH). If anything, Raiko has a stat advantage over Gawain.

    I'm afraid it was BS. ME was indicating that those that hold it are far more skilled than the other fighters in their era, hence "unparalleled". The instant we see someone not holding the skill matching performance relative to someone who doesn't, it becomes very shaky as a marker for skill.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lily Emilio View Post
    If we're talking about compatibility then the manga stated in the beginning that Raikou's Mystery Killer skill provides her great compatibility advantage against Suzuka who is the daughter of Tenma (in FGO the skill gives Anti-Divine bonus damage, and Suzuka has extremely high divinity).
    That makes it even worse for Raiko, since Gawain was doing just as well in CQB with no compatibility advantages. That being said, it probably has more to do with damage and defense than which one will land hits in CQB.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpoonyViking View Post
    Worth noting that Raikou was winning that fight until Suzuka pulled a Noble Phantasm which basically lets her predict the future - and even then, she said Raikou would have still won if she had assumed her Ushi-Gozen form.
    3rd np or 2nd? Because the 2nd NP was used for the marjority of her fight with Gawain as well, and Raiko immediately resorting to nuking was the only reason why she was winning, something that Gawain did not resort to, which makes the comparison from that point forward meaningless. It also didn't definitively say that Raiko would win as Ushi. Suzuka said "even someone like me might loose." It's open ended.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clyton View Post
    Saber Diarmuid vs Artoria, with the exact same setting in Fate/Zero, except:

    Diarmuid has Gae Dearg instead of Beagalltach (to fit his dual 1 sword, 1 spear style), and he still has Mind's Eye (True) and Knight Tactics.

    Would it go relatively the same, or would there be major changes at points that can shift the favour decisively for one side?
    The entire nature of the fight would be changed. Diarmuid would, instead of complicated traps, be contesting Saber with power and the only traps would be things like feints. The events leading up to the Bundine would probably be the same, with Saber's situation being more dire with a more powerful opponent, but then her no armor trick would actually work, and Artoria would just get a large bonus to her CQB abilities. The whole reason why Diarmuid was such a problem for Saber is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Bundine baiting was the entire reason why Saber was at a disadvantage by the end. Take that away, and it's more even.
    Last edited by I Can't Believe It's Not A NoblePhantasm; July 11th, 2020 at 11:47 AM.

  15. #125835
    Dark Sakura at the height of her power vs Nrvnqsr Chaos

    Would Sakura's shadows absorb Nero's beasts or would he eat her instead?

  16. #125836
    I told 'em, I told 'em. Bugrit! eddyak's Avatar
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    Grail-powered Sakura wins pretty easily. He needs to eat, she has an infinite mana supply, and his animals eating her won't necessarily kill her.
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  17. #125837
    Quote Originally Posted by eddyak View Post
    Grail-powered Sakura wins pretty easily. He needs to eat, she has an infinite mana supply, and his animals eating her won't necessarily kill her.
    Why wouldn't Sakura die from the animals eating her? She seemed capable of dying just fine at the end of HF. And couldn't Nero just send off some of his beasts to feed while he fights?

  18. #125838
    I told 'em, I told 'em. Bugrit! eddyak's Avatar
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    Gil filled her with steel and then chopped off her head. She reached into her own heart and ripped out the worm.

    And the beasts running off to feed won't really matter- if you haven't seen HF2, find a copy and watch it. At that point, the shadow covers most of the city, and that's just while she's asleep. She could just swallow the beasts, and their intended targets too.
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  19. #125839
    Presia messe noce yor tes mea TwilightsCall's Avatar
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    yeah if Sakura can control the Shadow, I'm pretty sure she just deletes Nrvnqsr.

    He might be able to take her by surprise and do some significant damage, but if the Holy Grail wants her to be alive, I can't think of anything he can do to actually finish her off.
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  20. #125840
    But Sakura feared for her life when Rin was coming at her with the gem sword. And Angra Mainyu had to stop her from killing herself. There's nothing that suggests her regeneration powers wouldn't stop if her brain was destroyed.

    And delete Nrvnqsr? How? Wouldn't the swallowed beasts return to the chaos? It's not like they made of magical energy like Servants, and I doubt the Shadow can process them like it does with organic matter.
    Last edited by KiritoX; July 11th, 2020 at 02:39 PM.

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