Was more referring to Nasu saying an EX-ranked NP can defeat him.Originally Posted by Menwearpink
Nothing ever said Alcides had to tank anything. While under attack, he was window shopping methods of dealing with Jack. He thought on using Nine Lives, but ended up deciding From Hell was worth stealing instead of destroying. From the beginning, Alcides was baiting Gilgamesh into using Ea for example, and it's a threat that looms into their second battle in volume 5.
Tell that to Saber Alter. The movie and interviews confirm she killed Herc multiple times with the same moveset, just by pumping more energy into her mana bursts each time.
True.Regarding the idea that many or most of the NPs ranked A or above are of non-human origin, I quickly did a rough count, and the split is about half-and-half. Depending on the luck of which Servants are drawn in the HGW he's summoned in, it's entirely possible for his enemies to have otherwise excellent NPs like God Force, Durindana or Sword of Paracelsus which are completely useless against the Nemean lion's pelt.
Bellephoron was said to be able to take 2-3 lives from what I remember. Cu is said to have a chance of killing Herc by combining rune magic with Gae Bolg. Cu Alter runs train through God Hand and Saber Alter in his interlude, in his Curruid state. Merodach is equal to the attack that killed Heracles 7 times. Gram is comparable to Excalibur going by the VN so it's also in that range. There are many noble phantasms that have almost a definite shot of killing Herc in one go through these. Dendera, Vasavi Shatki (conceptual advantage), Final Buddha Palm, Enuma Elish, Xiuchoatl etc.As far as I can recall, the only weapons which have been stated, in theory or in practice, to be able to take off more than one life in one hit are: Excalibur, Caliburn, the Ark of the Covenant, and the hydra's poison (due to its conceptual advantage). (Presumably Ea can also do it, considering it overwhelmed Excalibur in a head-to-head clash.) Even if they can go through God Hand and the pelt, I don't imagine most rank A NPs are capable of killing Herk more than once in one go.
How would Saber Alter even be able to do that?I agree that Reincarnation Pandora is kinda a deal-breaker, but I'm leery about placing too much weight on it when we still don't know a lot about its limitations. Presumably it has limitations, otherwise Alk would've just stolen Gate of Babylon from Gil the first time they fought. Depending on what the conditions to steal an NP are, it's possible that Alk would simply get overpowered by Artoria Alter without ever having the opportunity to steal Excalibur.
Mana capacity? Alcides has an unlimited supply thanks to Buzz Cola. He's not getting outlasted.
Strength and conceptual advantages? From Hell gives Alcides an edge in both areas.
Versatility? Saber has nukes but Alcides has the same hydra poison that made Mordred spit out blood and cry in pain. That and the rest of King's Order. Including a resurrection skill and sash of the war god.
Mana burst? Alcides overwhelms it with Nine Lives which is just as easy for him to deploy.
Noble phantasm? The one area Saber clinches it, and that's the opportunity Alcides will use to steal it.
Alcides was baiting Gilgamesh into using Ea. I'm sure Excalibur isn't an issue.
Last edited by Ronove; November 13th, 2020 at 09:58 PM.
i wonder why everyone seems to forget about Cu, Medea and Medusa in this conversation
Because while impressive, they don't exactly reach Gil/Artoria/Herk?
Also, on godhand, didn’t we learn it actually only increases resistance once? In other words if Heracles takes a thousand fire damage and gains fire resistance 100, the second attack only hits for 200 damage or whatever, but the third and subsequent attacks would also deal 200, not a consecutively smaller number
Nothing implied it was only one time really.
We've seen Medea at her probably-peak, with ridiculous amounts of mana and a temple. She'd be spanked by a regular Artoria if Shirou wasn't around to hold her back. Magic Resist is absolutely broken against a class whose main method of attack is magic. Only Kojiro & Cursed Arm are below her in the powerlevels ranking. If she could get a hold of her dragon, if she gets more abilities according to her legend, she might have a better ranking, or maybe she puts her item creation to use and makes herself some ridiculous age of gods nonsense, but this is as far as she reaches. No wonder Nasu dropped "lol they don't like actually using magic" in both Merlin & Solomon's profiles, he'd already killed magic as a viable playstyle before he even expanded from FSN. Well done, Nasu, you played yourself.
Medusa lasted for maybe ten minutes against salter, both with an equal power supply, without any real chance of winning, but had a surprisingly good showing. Below Cu, would probably reach Cu tier if she went full Gorgon, but you don't ever go full Gorgon against a monster slayer.
Cu with a proper Master, and his chariot and other weaponry and maybe castle, I'd put on Herc & Artoria's level, combat-wise, but quite a bit lower in actuality, given the amount of sheer hax open to the other two. His warp spasm might push that over the top, but then again, freakin' God Hand and Avalon laugh at meager mortal abilities.
Actually, why are we assuming all Herc gets is one or two extra things? The guy's legend is every bit as extensive as Arthur and his various knights' legends, he has twelve different impossible tasks he accomplished, he has a club that does... things, he made a shield that can petrify, (and maybe a sword? I don't 100% remember), he punched out gods, he threatened to shoot down the Sun so a god backed down, he took the entirety of Troy in like two days, he travelled with a crew, he ascended to freaking Olympus after he died. Expand the list of possible things he gets, he's lugging around an Armoury Of Heracles so extensive it's a wonder he can make up his mind what to beat the next hero senseless with.
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Don't forget his sword that was mentioned in Castoria's profile and his crazy physical stats.
He can also be summoned as a Rider and as an Assassin so you can expect even more NPs.
you dont think that a petrification beam that is the perfect counter to god hand and a dude with runes for every situation, including calling upon Odin to cancel the NPs of other Servants is impressive?
"The power of the rune obtained by the Great God Odin of Northern Europe is temporarily released to bestow large-scale magic damage on the enemy camp. Furthermore, surviving enemies will have all their buff effects dispelled, the parameters of their abilities will be forcibly reduced by one rank and, in case they possess constantly active Noble Phantasms, those will be halted for 1~2 turns. An extremely powerful trump card, there is also a possibility that use-restrictions have been applied by Odin—but details are left unknown."
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he may also have Frag, he has the BS level runes and other things like additional blessings and whatever Odin has going on with him.
lets not forget that he is spoken in the same breath as Artoria and Herakles by Nasu himself.
sidenote, but considering the barbs going everywhere inside a target's body, would God Hand revival even work properly if the spear is still inside Herk's chest and he has metal NP barbs all over his insides and possibly even inside his blood vessels?
Because while impressive, they don't exactly reach Gil/Artoria/Herk?
Gee chief I dunno, pretty sure I said they were impressive?
ok, so tell me
what do Herk or Artoria have against a petrification beam that even Merlin wanted nothing to do with?
how well do those 2 fare against having taken a lot of damage, getting debuffed, getting their NPs locked away and still having to fight one of the best spearmen in history armed with one of the most haxed NPs in the nasuverse?
Reminder that Herc still has 12 lives, crazy good parameters, hydra venom, arrows as strong as NPs and skill with weapons (can Nine Lives really be sealed?).
MR/high MGI and God Hand.
Cu isn't Odin, let's be clear about that. He isn't from the same region or time, the only connection he has to Odin is that he was taught runework by Scathach, which he learned, but didn't ever bother with besides when he couldn't stab something. He's definitely not as good with them as Scathach or Bryn are, and they're both human(ish). Nasu does speak highly of him, but Artoria & Herc have some ridiculous levels of nonsense to their name.
And curses are overwritten by stronger curses. Gae Bolg's no-heal curse 100% loses out to a divine curse of resurrection cast by Zeus, and I doubt the respawns just leave foreign bodies inside him.
MR, instant heal passive NPs and just plain being stronger than Cu.
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Unless Cu summons the Valkyries now I'm not sold on the Odin runes cancelling NPs, otherwise AVALON, GODHAND, Herk with Sanity and skills, MR with excellent stats
An thats already without all the other stuff their myths would grant
actually, let me make the case for both of them
Medusa can shoot a beam that even Merlin was afraid of and we know is also a counter to God Hand. she can make shadow clones. she can actually use a weapon for once instead of 2 shitty daggers. she has an immortal killing weapon made by the gods, she can cast Blood Fort anywhere by snapping her fingers. she has a pegasus and even wings herself. she wrestled Tiamat down to the earth. she destroyed Tiamat's horn and Cybelle is actually OP since it can lock even her Gorgon self inside her own mind, as we saw in her backstory in HA.
Cu (not going to include Alter stuff) is one of the best spearmen in history, is extremely agile, has runes for every situation, can regenerate, can create a death realm on earth, can make powerful barriers that hold up against most attacks, can send your attacks to a different dimension, can no-sell your projectiles, fought Gil for 12 hours, has one OP and versatile spear, can lower your luck with runes to make up for the few weaknesses said OP spear has. said OP spear may count as something that could potentially go over the Nemian Pelt (it was made by Scat that is some sort of pseudo deity herself and whose body is compatible with a major nordic deity), probably has Frag, has Wicker Man and can ask Odin to nerf you and negate your NPs while dealing significant damage at the same time.
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Merlin has A rank MGI and was still fearful of those eyes. not only that, but MR usually doesn't help much when the magical ability gets classified as an NP.
Invisible Air being used as a beam isnt deflected by MR the same way a wind spell is
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Godhand is rank B. Odin bullshit divine spell is rank A. make of that what you will
the same Avalon that at full regen power with Saber's backing took half a day to heal a non-lethal strike from Gae Bolg?
Goddess Gorgon with a Grail could shoot a petrification beam Merlin was afraid of. We do not know it's a counter to God Hand, it isn't even an NP, what is this shadow clone thing, it destroyed Tiamat's horn after Quetz had already cracked it, and Cybele's for sealing Medusa, not other people.
I have no idea where you got most of this stuff, the most Nasu made out of Cu's rune usage was some basic things that he couldn't accomplish with his spear, a honking great barrier and the ability to power up his spear enough to where he miiiiiiiight just be able to beat Berserker Herc.Cu (not going to include Alter stuff) is one of the best spearmen in history, is extremely agile, has runes for every situation, can regenerate, can create a death realm on earth, can make powerful barriers that hold up against most attacks, can send your attacks to a different dimension, can no-sell your projectiles, fought Gil for 12 hours, has one OP and versatile spear, can lower your luck with runes to make up for the few weaknesses said OP spear has. said OP spear may count as something that could potentially go over the Nemian Pelt (it was made by Scat that is some sort of pseudo deity herself and whose body is compatible with a major nordic deity), probably has Frag, has Wicker Man and can ask Odin to nerf you and negate your NPs while dealing significant damage at the same time.
MR let Salter almost ignore the petrification.Merlin has A rank MGI and was still fearful of those eyes. not only that, but MR usually doesn't help much when the magical ability gets classified as an NP.
Invisible Air being used as a beam isnt deflected by MR the same way a wind spell is
Petrification eyes aren't an NP. Dumb, I know, that literally the most famous thing about her isn't her defining NP, but that's the way Nasu set it up.
Again. Cu is not Odin. He isn't Bryn, he isn't even Scathach. Scathach is a magus good enough that she could summon other heroes without a Grail or HGW backing. Cu is nowhere near as good as she is, and Scathach's probably not even as good as still-can't-use-Odin's-runes-properly-even-though-she's-a-partial-goddess Bryn, who basically burnt out the moment she used them.Godhand is rank B. Odin bullshit divine spell is rank A. make of that what you will
the same Avalon that at full regen power with Saber's backing took half a day to heal a non-lethal strike from Gae Bolg?
Saber didn't get Avalon till just before their fight with Gil.
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Medea has a great land, but she's hardly at her peak in F/SN.
Considering she didn't get to use her item creation at all, had to compensate for a lack of proper master, and such... Yeah, the temple is good but it was more something to help her out with certain disadvantages that already existed tbh.
Also its funny to see actual scath wanking here, tbh.
Last edited by Menwearpink; November 14th, 2020 at 07:20 PM.
1- Kingu was the one with the grail if i recall correctly, not Gorgon. she got 2 of Tiamat's authorities but i believe that was all we know she got as a buff
2- it counters Godhand because it doesn't actually kill the target (unless they shatter), therefore, it keeps the revival from triggering. i think i once read a wiki bottom source clarifying it but alas i cant seem to find it now. however, that is the exact reason why Merlin was afraid, despite saying "yeah i am immortal and i can respawn somewhere else if i get killed" just a few seconds prior
3- "it isnt even an NP" https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Caress_of_the_Medusa
4- Cybelle was used on Shirou in HA. she used it on Perseus before he reflected it back at her.
5- i dont recall Quetz cracking the horn. all i recall is her damaging Tiamat's eye. not to mention that the Gorgon that did all of that was already severely weakened
6- shadow clones are interlude stuff. yes she can use magic. she taught Sakura after all
Last edited by fire_mountain_30; November 14th, 2020 at 08:28 PM.
1- Saber was powering Avalon while it was inside Shirou. unless you want to argue that it grants greater healing to Saber than to Shirou or Kiritsugu
2- "I have no idea where you got most of this stuff, the most Nasu made out of Cu's rune usage was some basic things that he couldn't accomplish with his spear"
"has runes for every situation" - literally 18 of the fuckers that can be used in various combinations (like using just 4 to make any enemy 1V1 you on sight). we have seen ice runes, fire runes, anti-invisibility runes, rune mines, necromantic runes, GPS runes, wind blade runes, sunlight runes etc... (yeah most of those were used by Touko, but they were single individual runes and Cu was taught all of them)
"can regenerate" - FGO prologue where he mentions that he can obviously heal others as a caster and Cu alter can do it just fine himself
"can create a death realm on earth" - caster Cu mats
"can make powerful barriers that hold up against most attacks" - FSN
"can send your attacks to a different dimension" - FGO OVA and stated to be application of his death realm creation power
"can lower your luck with runes to make up for the few weaknesses said OP spear has" - FGO prologue. used to attract and farm skeletons
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my best friend is pissed that she aint a goddess in TM
i wonder how much of a boost she would get if she could absorb the divinity in Rule Breaker back into herself
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