You mean, based on pure skill? My gut feeling is that it would be a close match, but Karna would still win in the end.
You mean, based on pure skill? My gut feeling is that it would be a close match, but Karna would still win in the end.
I mean the duel field doesn’t really need to be used by Karna. I would say Achilles probably beats Karna on average. Either Achilles beats up Karna with probably equal fight skills, or he just wrestles him into the ground because bravery, or he castlevania’s Karna with his shield.
If Karna tries to Brahmastra it gets blocked. If he tries to Shakti it gets blocked and Achilles just wins.
Achilles kind of wins the battle of NPs and the battle outside of NPs.
Achilles matches Karna, but in a 1v1 match you forget the advantage Karna has; Kavacha and Kundala. Andreias Amarantos is useless vs Karna due to the higher divinity he possess. Which means while Karna gets his defense, Achilles will have to depend entirely on Kosmos and his Speed to avoid getting one shotted. Karna can also use his Mana Burst to make movement harder for Achilles. Bravery is a good boost, but it does not make make a person invincible in Close Combat, while Kavacha and Kundala almost does.
In a battle of NPs, Achilles will be able to make use of his Chariot, his speed, and the shield. The chariot could be blocked/ countered by Brahmasthra Kundala, while the shield which is excellent, is mainly a defensive item. Its said in the mats that Achilles can use it to crush an opponent, but that does not give us much details about the attack, since it has never been used on screen. Given the lack of feats it has, I would wager that while decently useful, its not groundbreaking or anything, since otherwise Achilles would have used it in Apocrypha. The speed and the his spear are the main implements he can use to inflict damage.
I would assume that the battle goes with Achilles having to kite and make quick attacks which inflict chip damage, while Karna will have to track down Achilles and give him a strong enough hit, which he might be able to do with AoE attack. Given the defensive advantage he holds; I would say that Karna wins 7-7.5 out of 10.
the duel field takes away divine blessings and really seemingly anything that was granted to the individuals involved by the gods, including things like Achilles' immortality which were the result of him interacting with a divine fire / river, not even an actual god.
i doubt Prana Burst (divine blessing given by heritage) or any of his NPs (given to him by the gods) would remain in the duel field
I was replying to the post above mine. Regarding the duel field, if it is activated, then yeah, both should be relatively equal and it is a toss-up who wins there.
Also, considering the prompt, should we take into account the masters? Karna will have Darnic as a master, who is much better than Celenike. If its like a typical HGW, and the servants fight each other while the masters do the same, then I would give Darnic+Karna the edge.
Achilles has superior speed and strength. He wields a light spear and overwhelms with speed. Karna uses a giant heavy spear which doesn't make for particularly quick attacks.
It seems like a poor match-up for Karna overall. Without any defensive measures, Achilles should win majority of the time, he's simply more skilled at close combat. K&K is crazy, but it's questionable whether it offsets A-rank Battle Continuation and Kosmos when Karna will have a hard time seriously injuring Achilles in the first place.
Karna has better AoE, even without using NP, with Mana Burst Flame, which can damage Achilles, and make it harder for him to maneuver. His spear while not activating VS, is not as heavy or big, and is more lithe. Plus, them being servants with ability to lift tons, it would not make much of a difference either way I think.
You say Achilles is more skilled at close combat. He does have Bravery, and good stats, but those 2 =/= skill. Karna has feats of skill from his fight with Siegfried, wherein it explicitly states that while Siegfrieds skill surpasses mankind, Karna's skill with a Spear is in the realm of God's. Achilles meanwhile does not seem to have as much Skill feats, with most of his feats emphasising his speed or strength.
A rank BC and Kosmos are good, but Achilles does not seem to use Kosmos as much in close combat while BC, while being powerful, can still be overwhelmed.
Reminder that Karna was so skilled with a spear his effective STR rank was high enough to overcome Armor of Fafnir even though his actual STR was "only" B. Also, at no point has it been stated his melee attacks are slow, quite to the contrary.
If we're comparing Karna and Achilles head-to-head, the Dracula fight is probably a useful reference point, given they were both fighting against the same opponent there. Karna got tagged by Dracula's stakes while Achilles didn't, which is somewhat indicative of the difference in their combat speeds.
Dracula also tackled Achilles to the ground and Karna had to throw his spear to help him outOriginally Posted by Holiday
Of course Achilles is faster (he has a NP for that), but his immortality cheat code doesn't work on Karna, whereas Karna's immortality cheat code works on Achilles, so I dunno if he'd be able to do enough damage to Karna quick enough to take him out.
So given that WoG and characters in Apocrypha spoke of them in roughly the same terms (i.e. "(Karna's) power and skill is not inferior to that of Achilles"), I guess it's more equal than I thought.
Close combat should still go to Achilles though. It's not that Karna is slow with his spear, it's that he'd be comparatively slower than an Achilles with higher Agility and a lighter spear made for throwing.
Siegfried was at a disadvantage due to Karna's long range. Here, range is (roughly) equalized, and the advantage in Strength/Agility is on Achilles' side. Karna won't be slashing vitals freely like he was with Sieg.
90% damage cut is very nice.
but 10% chip damage is a lot better than no damage at all. Can’t hurt someone if you can’t hit them and considering that they’re definitely in the same ballpark as skill the guy who has a huge deal NP about being super fast is gonna have a massive advantage.
There’s also something important to note that is kind of forgotten about.
Kosmos exists beyond being a big world field, it’s an actual physical shield that Achilles could block hits, captain America Karna in the face with or probably block mana bursts with so.
The only noble phantasm that Karna can really leverage against Achilles is K&K. Versus Achilles’s shield and speed that he can use to counter and overcome Karna’s Noble Phantasms and also use to win the non-noble phantasm fight. Beyond that Achilles’s stats are also superior so.
TBH if Siegfried wasn’t “yeah I can just walk into it since armor of fafnir” he probably wouldn’t have let Karna hit him in the vitals freely either.
With Celenike as a Master, if Achilles tried to crush Karna with Kosmos, I imagine we'd get the same result as Lancelot using Arondight with Kariya as his Master did. Karna is also a mana hog, but he seems to do fine as long as he doesn't use his Prana Burst to the fullest or for long - I mean, *Jinako* could sustain him, after all.
Also, regular reminder that Siegfried could keep up with Achilles' speed; there's no reason to think Karna wouldn't be able to do the same.
Isn't Achilles' god-forged armour mentioned in his profiles? If he got that, it'd be a good match for K&K.
I feel like just speed alone isn't going to be enough to defeat Karna though, Karna's been wanked to all hell in Fate, Achilles is definitely going to need another edge to have a good chance, imo.
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I think he only gets the armour if summoned in Greece.
Kind of s big think to think that a big deal noble phantasm isn’t in fact a substantial advantage in a fight.
If we’re talking about energy expenditure well, using the shield would be like using a beam. Most servants can afford to do that once or twice. Plus saying Jinako fueled Karna is like saying Guda fuels Herc when they have to shut down most of their things to be able to function.
Mana burst fire costs a lot, K&K is also a ridiculous cost. Achilles isn’t likely all that cheap but unless he’s going for a joy ride with his chariot he probably costs less than Karna.
In the Foxtail manga, he still has the armour, his stats are high enough he's still a threat to Gawain, and he still has the eye beams. The only thing he doesn't use is Vasavi Shakti, and I don't think there was any indication he couldn't? And even in the game, he still had most of his stuff, didn't he? Didn't his armour protect Jinako from being erased by the Moon Cell after his loss, for instance?
Like I said, they're both mana hogs, but I'm guessing Achilles' *specific tactic* of trying to ram people with Kosmos costs a wee bit more than his usual expenditure.
I mean yes, true naming your noble phantasm costs more than your normal activities.
Achilles speed, while great, is not so fast that he is FTE to other servants. There was the clash with Fran and Siegfried where Siegfried was able to keep up with him, though Achilles was clearly faster. Karna is stated to have more skill than Siegfried, and has more agility, and hence should do even better. He also has good AoE with Prana burst that can hinder Achilles movements, and might even get a clean hit of with Agni if Achilles is careless.
Kosmos crush move has never been so far IIRC, so there is no feats it has so far. Achilles also seems to prefer fighting with his spear or chariot, since he does not use the shield much in GO animations or Apocrypha itself.
Karna has superior AoE, more skill feats and more defenses, while Achilles has superior speed.Big NP wise neither has a clear cut advantage, since Karna's main nukes can be shielded while Achilles Chariot can be nuked.
Stat wise, there is not much of a difference. Achilles has a B plus in strength, more endurance and A plus in agility(I wager that this is when he activates his run NP). However , Karna while having B strength, has the feat of hurting Siegfried with his armour which is supposed to negate all B rank attacks, via pure skill. Agility is the same not taking into account the run NP. Endurance is the only thing lower, but Kavacha and Kundala makes up for it and then some. So no, their stats are not far enough that Karna will be struggling to touch Achilles.
Just remembered it now, but Karna can fly with Prana Burst too. That should also give him an extra advantage vs Achilles speed, since he can always fly up.
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