Badass Versus Thread

[eddyak]

Achilles speed, while great, is not so fast that he is FTE to other servants.

It kind of is, Chiron, his old teacher, could barely keep up with him with the use of precognition. Either he wasn't going superspeed against Siegfried, or Chiron is just that low in the combat rankings compared to Siegfried & friends.

[Menwearpink]

Man is basically teleports behind you in speed.

Also I somehow doubt that a Noble Phantasm is just a mere + to a stat. Not that agility = speed anyway.

Sure Karna can fly and blast with mana burst but he's gonna run out of his energy real quick if he has to do that. I don't really think the chariot is all that great for Achilles and it's always been the sort of most meh/weakest part of his kit that feels shoehorned in just so he can be called a Rider tbh.

Have we ever actually seen Achilles going all out in a state where he isn't already hampered with missing his shield and other things? Hard to say "he doesn't really use it" is it.

AoF is more about reducing damage by B so it seems like its just that Karna's got special feats to add damage based on his BAB or something to get past AoF's broken DR to put it in DND terms.

We don't really need to say it needs feats to be considered strong since it's basically rushing at you at super fast speeds with an A+ world noble phantasm. Probably more dangerous than most holy swords and it isn't like Karna has an option against it other than Vasavi Shakti which leads to a loss for him.

[fire_mountain_30]

Man is basically teleports behind you in speed.

lie detected

[Fastest hero]

kosmos is not really mana expensive. Anyway Achilles is one step faster in combat speed and way faster in travel speed tho Karna has a powerful defense so if he uses vs then probably Achilles if he doesn't then Karna


However, there are exceptions. In this case, in addition to the necessary conditions of “being where he is making a contract, instead of being in opposition, of his own volition” and the Noble Phantasm “not requiring considerable skill and power to invoke its true name”, it is believed that the transfer of the Noble Phantasm went smoothly because there is “an episode in the legend of the giver (Achilles) where he loans his Noble Phantasms” and “an episode in the legend of the receiver (Astolfo) where he borrows a Noble Phantasm”.

[Deathhappens]

Okay, here's one for you:

Each member of the Black Faction from Apocrypha gets their respective Servant from the Red Faction (ie. Gordes gets Mordred, Darnic gets Karna, etc). They then proceed to fight a standard Holy Grail War amongst themselves. Who wins?

Oh, fun!

Gordes: Instant death via his own Servant/forced to Command Seal Mordred to stay alive

Darnic: Gets along just fine with Karna, easily wins the whole thing

Fiore: Bonds over Caules' baby photos with Atalante, probably gets stomped regardless

Celenike: Too busy licking Achilles' abs to form an effective strategy, so ends up losing.

Whatsisname Master that died to Jack: Probably dies to Semiramis too, only quicker

Roche: Has a blast with Shakespeare, with any luck is convinced to run away with him together and thus is the true winner

[HeroOfTheAges]

Man is basically teleports behind you in speed.

Also I somehow doubt that a Noble Phantasm is just a mere + to a stat. Not that agility = speed anyway.

Sure Karna can fly and blast with mana burst but he's gonna run out of his energy real quick if he has to do that. I don't really think the chariot is all that great for Achilles and it's always been the sort of most meh/weakest part of his kit that feels shoehorned in just so he can be called a Rider tbh.

Have we ever actually seen Achilles going all out in a state where he isn't already hampered with missing his shield and other things? Hard to say "he doesn't really use it" is it.

AoF is more about reducing damage by B so it seems like its just that Karna's got special feats to add damage based on his BAB or something to get past AoF's broken DR to put it in DND terms.

We don't really need to say it needs feats to be considered strong since it's basically rushing at you at super fast speeds with an A+ world noble phantasm. Probably more dangerous than most holy swords and it isn't like Karna has an option against it other than Vasavi Shakti which leads to a loss for him.

In the episode where the war begins, where Achilles is being shot at by Chiron, who's identity he does not know, Achillee is going pretty much all out yet he still does not use his shield. Neither does he use it when he is trying to reach Chiron on the aeroplane and is being peppered with arrows constantly. He also does not use it vs Drac, when everyone is going close to all out. The only scene where the shield seemed to be used in the anime was Kosmos by Astolfo, whereas in every fight seen so far, Achilles prefers using his spear or his chariot.

Armour of Fafnir is completely immune to damage of B or below. Achilles could not inflict a single wound even with B+ Strength. However Karna's skill with a spear was what enabled him to wound Siegfried. Given that its explicitly written as a skill feat, I would not dispute the text.

If we consider it without feats, then it is essentialy meaningless. As I said before, if it was so strong, why is that attack not even used by Achilles even once anywhere? Sanson and Gilles both also have an A+ NP, yet no one would argue that running at a person with that would do much damage. The shield is mainly rated for its defensive quality, not for the unseen attack which it can do.

Also, Kosmos true name activation may not be as expensive, yet that does not give any details about the Mana consumption of the attack version

[Fastest hero]

In the episode where the war begins, where Achilles is being shot at by Chiron, who's identity he does not know, Achillee is going pretty much all out yet he still does not use his shield. Neither does he use it when he is trying to reach Chiron on the aeroplane and is being peppered with arrows constantly. He also does not use it vs Drac, when everyone is going close to all out. The only scene where the shield seemed to be used in the anime was Kosmos by Astolfo, whereas in every fight seen so far, Achilles prefers using his spear or his chariot.

Why would he use it at the beginning of the war thus comprimise his identity also Chiron was sniping him from an unknown position at the time. And achilles when fighting on the airplanes had already decided to have a fair match with chiron and literally no one went all out in the Dracula fight since no one used their np and dracula could also turn into mist to avoid kosmos.

Armour of Fafnir is completely immune to damage of B or below. Achilles could not inflict a single wound even with B+ Strength. However Karna's skill with a spear was what enabled him to wound Siegfried. Given that its explicitly written as a skill feat, I would not dispute the text. b+ is higher than A so all that means is that his modifier didn't activate. But yeah karna is the better spearman.


Also, Kosmos true name activation may not be as expensive, yet that does not give any details about the Mana consumption of the attack version

Why would he use it at the beginning of the war thus comprimise his identity also Chiron was sniping him from an unknown position at the time. And achilles when fighting on the airplanes had already decided to have a fair match with chiron and literally no one went all out in the Dracula fight since no one used their np and dracula could also turn into mist to avoid kosmos.

b+ is higher than A so all that means is that his modifier didn't activate. But yeah karna is the better spearman.

The attack version is him just slamming people with the world so why would the mana consumption be different?

[Ronove]

Why would he use it at the beginning of the war thus comprimise his identity also Chiron was sniping him from an unknown position at the time. And achilles when fighting on the airplanes had already decided to have a fair match with chiron and literally no one went all out in the Dracula fight since no one used their np and dracula could also turn into mist to avoid kosmos.

b+ is higher than A so all that means is that his modifier didn't activate. But yeah karna is the better spearman.

The attack version is him just slamming people with the world so why would the mana consumption be different?

In the episode where the war begins, where Achilles is being shot at by Chiron, who's identity he does not know, Achillee is going pretty much all out yet he still does not use his shield. Neither does he use it when he is trying to reach Chiron on the aeroplane and is being peppered with arrows constantly. He also does not use it vs Drac, when everyone is going close to all out. The only scene where the shield seemed to be used in the anime was Kosmos by Astolfo, whereas in every fight seen so far, Achilles prefers using his spear or his chariot.

Armour of Fafnir is completely immune to damage of B or below. Achilles could not inflict a single wound even with B+ Strength. However Karna's skill with a spear was what enabled him to wound Siegfried. Given that its explicitly written as a skill feat, I would not dispute the text.

If we consider it without feats, then it is essentialy meaningless. As I said before, if it was so strong, why is that attack not even used by Achilles even once anywhere? Sanson and Gilles both also have an A+ NP, yet no one would argue that running at a person with that would do much damage. The shield is mainly rated for its defensive quality, not for the unseen attack which it can do.

Also, Kosmos true name activation may not be as expensive, yet that does not give any details about the Mana consumption of the attack version

This assessment on Karna's skill is a misconception.

It means that Lancer's spear possesses power proportionate to an A-rank attack. But while the
spear itself is certainly a rare gem, it never could have penetrated this dragon's body and landed a
blow by itself. Lancer's destructive force comes from his immense physical strength and his
transcendent technique.

Jumping to A rank isn't reflecting skill alone but also brute strength and the quality of his spear. Siegfried was stated only slightly less skilled, and Achilles was a good bit better than him. Courtesy of Foxtail, we also know Gawain is match for Karna in skill

The superiority of Lancer's technique exceeded Saber's by a slight degree, but Saber was tougher
in body. All things considered, they were more or less an even match in strength. A moment's
carelessness could lead to a pierced heart or severed head.

And Achilles still has that beams that he saved for the Atalanta fight. It was overwhelming her noble phantasm so it should at least be enough for Karna's mana burst.

[fire_mountain_30]

Jumping to A rank isn't reflecting skill alone but also brute strength and the quality of his spear. Siegfried was stated only slightly less skilled, and Achilles was a good bit better than him.

try swinging a zweihander around in a crowded forrest




sometimes people forget how important small terrain advantages were in FSN. i wish we had more of that in modern TM

[Menwearpink]

I mean B+ is in fact double what B is so. If Achilles has his + in play he’d certainly be doing plenty of damage to Siegfried.

As far as serious fights go see Lancer vs Archer in FSN with the whole they aren’t serious unless they’re using their noble Phantasms thing. Not going all out using your big trump cards isn’t the same as sandbagging really.

[SpoonyViking]

or Chiron is just that low in the combat rankings compared to Siegfried & friends.

Well, Chiron wasn't as strong as he could be, since he was summoned as a humanoid, not a centaur. Plus, either the narration or Achilles notes that Chiron was a superb teacher, but didn't have as much combat experience as Achilles himself - which is how Achilles turns the tables on him in their first fight. Finally, Siegfried and Karna are noted to be exceptional even among Heroic Spirits.

To sum it up, I'd say it's more a matter of Chiron being an average melee fighter (for Heroic Spirit standards, of course) fighting a super-powerful one and needing precognition and intimate knowledge of his enemy to bridge the gap. He was much more successful sniping Achilles' mounts later.

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Speaking of Siegfried and Gawain, has that match-up been done before? Assuming both are powered by homunculi batteries and start within melee distance of each other, and that Gawain is under the effects of Numeral of the Saint, how would that fight go?

[Menwearpink]

Siegfried can probably defensively fight until the sun is down better than Lancelot between his supreme inhuman super swordsmanship, and armor of fafnir being so broken.

Although especially if his + is active Gawain can likely do good damage so. Seems rough for Siegfried but I can see him winning with maybe a slight disadvantage?

But that’s not really surprising if it’s in Gawain’s peak and ideal situation. If anything that he has such a decent chance says something about him.

[Ronove]

try swinging a zweihander around in a crowded forrest




sometimes people forget how important small terrain advantages were in FSN. i wish we had more of that in modern TM

Only they were fighting in a clearing with no obstacles to impede them. At least in the anime/manga.

[fire_mountain_30]

Only they were fighting in a clearing with no obstacles to impede them. At least in the anime/manga.

tell the very clear LN narration explaining how the forrest is an inconvenience to anyone on that fight without forrest colored hair that

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Siegfried can probably defensively fight until the sun is down better than Lancelot between his supreme inhuman super swordsmanship, and armor of fafnir being so broken.

Although especially if his + is active Gawain can likely do good damage so. Seems rough for Siegfried but I can see him winning with maybe a slight disadvantage?

But that’s not really surprising if it’s in Gawain’s peak and ideal situation. If anything that he has such a decent chance says something about him.

i will never excuse the BS excuse for Siegfried not having his mana reactor

i guess they had to make Kaiba relevant somehow

[Menwearpink]

I mean he would be very relevant anyway.

sigurd’s a Cu, siegfried’s a artie in a way.

[Ronove]

tell the very clear LN narration explaining how the forrest is an inconvenience to anyone on that fight without forrest colored hair that

The LN said Achilles' short spear wasn't hindered in the forest and was good for close combat. It never said Siegfried or Frankenstein were unless I'm misremembering.

[fire_mountain_30]

The LN said Achilles' short spear wasn't hindered in the forest and was good for close combat. It never said Siegfried or Frankenstein were unless I'm misremembering.

it said that the forrest was not a good place to use weapons that rely on swings and arching trajectories

[Ronove]

it said that the forrest was not a good place to use weapons that rely on swings and arching trajectories

Achilles had a spear, kinda necessary to swing when he's dealing with two servants at the same time. The LN even says he swung his spear at the same time as Siegfried and Fran. Afterwards, he repelled them with speed and martial arts technique. The text doesn't mention anything else.

[fire_mountain_30]

Achilles had a spear, kinda necessary to swing when he's dealing with two servants at the same time. The LN even says he swung his spear at the same time as Siegfried and Fran. Afterwards, he repelled them with speed and martial arts technique. The text doesn't mention anything else.

"Come... I'll let you feel what a true warrior is."
He readied his spear—and his thirst for blood crushed the air. Saber stood his ground bravely, and Berserker's artificial mind allowed her to take it in stride, but any normal humans would have their spirits utterly crumbled.
Three—so the countdown began.
***The thick forest was unsuited to the swinging of swords and spears.***
Two—and the air froze in an all-too-familiar way.
***But, in this place, the spear was superior to any other weapon in one aspect: the thrust. ***With his hero-slaying spear, able to pierce hearts and penetrate skulls with every strike, Rider felt no disadvantage at all.
One—and time itself seemed to stop before the eruption.
And most of all, with one of the world's most famous archers at his back, nothing would shake
his nerve.
Zero.
All things crude and impure were blown away, swept aside, as they stepped forward and leapt, swinging sword and mace and spear.

[fire_mountain_30]

how about a 2 V 2?

Consort Yu + Xiang Yu VS Sigurd + Bryhn