Badass Versus Thread

[Lily Emilio]

Zeus fought Sefar, and Sefar is several tiers higher than puny Beasts.

That doesn't mean much tho. He can't do what Goetia and U-Olga are capable of, he lacks anything that can inflict concept of death on Tiamat. The incineration of human order and bleaching the planet are feats stated to be beyond the chief gods, and just Tiamat's awakening in Babylonia causes the singularity to drift in spacetime (same description to when Archetype-Earth awakens in BAA manga). His LB is doomed until U-Olga brought it back. Has has the power but lack the super haxes.

Gil has enough power to destroy Tiamat but she is immune to all weapons in Mesopotamia in her titan form thus the need to remove that first. In the case of Sefar, it is because of compatibility that Sefar steamrolled the ancient gods yet defeated by a human swinging beamu sword. Sefar was weaker than a certain fox Beast candidate in term of stats as per Extella mats, yet she can defeat the fox due to her specific anti-concept advantages. When it comes to TM matchups, compatibility and concepts usually play the larger role than just pure raw power.

Fighting Sefar requires raw power which Zeus never lacks, that firepower is more than enough to destroy Tiamat saint graph, but he has no way to inflict death concept onto her to prevent her from coming back (heck I'd argue it would be the same if Sefar fights Tiamat, where Sefar keep destroying Tiamat only for her to return due to lacking death concept and Sefar can't do anything about it), a never-ending battle where Tiamat keeps losing but not dying, while Zeus/Sefar keep winning but not killing Tiamat for good.

TLDR: Raw power doesn't mean much when most of the match ups in the series revolve around compatibility, and it must always be considered.

[OnesFleetingGlory]

There is no logic in this though? Olympus never states Excalibur finished off Sefar in the LB history so why are you assuming it happened without evidence? Olympus on the other hand explicitly states Gattai Zeus beat up Sefar so the logical conclusion is that Zeus beat up Sefar and later the Gigas came from Sefar's remains.

Here is interview with Nasu about Atlantic Lostbelt, and that the bolded part talks about Sefar was only repelled.

Q: Can you explain a bit more about how the Atlantis Civilization ended?

Nasu: Well that is the Type Moon World story right? In the Type Moon World, 14000 Years ago, Sefar came in and went around breaking down everything. Gods from other sect of divinity when Sefar arrived reacted it "Oh no a threat beyond the sky came down, what do we do?" and panicked and started making plans. While Atlantis because they were from space too, they were looking down at them a bit (laugh). They were acting very high and mighty, until they were easily defeated because of Sefar being an Anti-Foreign Civilization Specialty Weapon. Meanwhile, in the Greece Lostbelt, Zeus alone recognized "This is Dangerous" and immediately recognized, and forced the other 12 gods who didn't wanted to fuse, and forced them all with "If we don't fuse now, what do you think is gonna happen", fighting Sefar in what was approximately a draw and chasing it away. But in a normal Type Moon Senki World, the 12 Machine Gods didn't become serious and as a result Atlantis Civilization ended. And surviving remnant flowed to the Aegean Sea, which later became the foundation of the Greek Civilization, type of almost forceful story happened.

――ゲーム中でも少し描かれましたが、アトランティス文明が滅びた理由についてもう少し詳しく教えていただ けますか。

奈須もちろんTYPE-MOON世界でのお話ですよね？　TYPE-MOON世界においては、1万4千年前にセファールがやってきて、ボコボコにされたからです。ほかの神話体 系の連中は、セファールがやってきたときに「空からヤバいのが降ってきたぞ。どうする？」と慌てて対策をね っていたのですが、アトランティスは自分たちもほかの宇宙からやってきたので、舐めていたんです（笑）。そ うしたら、セファールは本当に対異星文明特化型の兵器だったので、あっさりやられちゃったんです。一方、ゼ ウスが「これはヤバい！」といち早く気づいて、ほかの十一機神が合体したくないのを「今ここで合体しないで どうする」と無理やり合体して、ほぼ相打ち状態になってセファールを追い返したのが、異聞帯になった世界 です。十二機神が本気にならなかったほうが、普通の型月伝奇世界なんです。それでアトランティスが滅んで、生き残 りの残骸たちがエーゲ海まで流れ着いて、後のギリシャ文明の下地になったという。無理やりだけど、そういう 伝奇感になっています。

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Sefar gigantifies/mutates animals just with its proximity based on Extella iirc, so you dont need a dead Sefar to Gigantomachia. For all we know, Zeus chopped off a finger.

Except it's stated that Gigas were born from the corpse of Sefar.

[madarra]

Any idea what corpse is supposed to mean in this context? Heart? Brain? Full body reanimation? scraps of flesh? Cuz if its scraps of flesh i stand by my chopped off a finger statement.

[AAM1232]

Nothing there suggests Excalibur finished off Sefar, which is the issue I had with your post?

LB 5.2 Chapter 18 also has Zeus himself say he struck down Sefar after the combination.

[OnesFleetingGlory]

Nothing there suggests Excalibur finished off Sefar, which is the issue I had with your post?

LB 5.2 Chapter 18 also has Zeus himself say he struck down Sefar after the combination.

My post was based on the information that the Holy Sword is the only weapon that managed to destroy Sefar. I can't find anything else that could do the same. Sorry if it turns out to be wrong.

And as I said, it's Zeus' claim that Sefar was destroyed by him, while in an interview Nasu said they managed to drive it off. Two contradictory statements, and I chose to believe author's statement, which led to my conclusion a page back. If it turns out in-game script was the correct one, then I apologize.

[AAM1232]

My post was based on the information that the Holy Sword is the only weapon that managed to destroy Sefar. I can't find anything else that could do the same. Sorry if it turns out to be wrong.

And as I said, it's Zeus' claim that Sefar was destroyed by him, while in an interview Nasu said they managed to drive him off. Two contradictory statements, and I chose to believe author's statement, which led to my conclusion a page back. If it turns out in-game script was the correct one, then I apologize.

The author in this case is Sakurai working with Nasu though? It's strange that you'd dismiss what's written in game for what is purely hypothetical, considering Excalibur isn't stated anywhere in LB 5's backstory nor is it setup as the only thing that can defeat Sefar in the past.

All in all, I don't really buy this idea that Excalibur got made and that beat Sefar when the story doesn't tell us that.

[OnesFleetingGlory]

It's stated in LB6 that with Holy Sword failed to be forged, all of Earth's civilization and landmasses were destroyed, and Earth is left with just endless ocean.

If it's just in Britain, fine, but the entire Earth? What happened to Atlantis, and the Greek gods if they succeeded in destroying Sefar? Shouldn't they still be around?

[AAM1232]

Well in LB6 one would presume that there was no Gattai Zeus to stop Sefar first if we're playing this game, so this would be an unchecked Sefar in all her might destroying stuff. Still doesn't mean Excalibur beat Sefar in LB5 though, since that's not given anywhere.

[Lily Emilio]

It's stated in LB6 that with Holy Sword failed to be forged, all of Earth's civilization and landmasses were destroyed, and Earth is left with just endless ocean.

If it's just in Britain, fine, but the entire Earth? What happened to Atlantis, and the Greek gods if they succeeded in destroying Sefar? Shouldn't they still be around?

The LB zones are not representative of the entire state of the planet in the LB. It is basically just a piece of the LB world in a specific region being cut and stick onto FGO's Earth. In LB1 it's just Russia, and the rest of the planet is frozen and dead. In LB2 it's just Scandinavia, and the rest of the planet is apparently toasted by Surtr-Fenrir. In LB3 QSH was surprised that his Great Wall encircling the Earth suddenly lost surveillance of the entire planet and thought that if he breaks through the storm wall he will restore it, but it's actually because the China region has been cut from the LB3's planet then stick onto FGO's China. In LB4 we don't know what the rest of the world looks like outside of India piece. In LB5 we only see the part around where Atlantian civilization were supposed to have been there. Only in LB6 we got an explanation that the rest of the planet were destroyed by Sefar.

[Byegod]

Honestly shouldn't sefars defense kick in for zeus anyway because zeus is a robot that was made by beings of intelligence?

Almost like sefar is one of the most poorly written parts of the setting

[madarra]

Nah, Zeus has his Anti-"conceptual stuff" bullshit so it evens back out.

[Byegod]

Nah, Zeus has his Anti-"conceptual stuff" bullshit so it evens back out.

Then how can he lose in the first place if he has that, since the only one that actually fought was mars

[madarra]

Well based on the Nasu blog, PHH greeks didnt take the situation seriously spending their time laughing at the other pantheons for being afraid of "alien invaders" rather then prepping

In LB, Zeus alone took Sefar seriously, and forced the other gods to Gattai against their will and still only got a draw.

So i guess Zeus alone only has Anti-"conceptual stuff" rank B and once he Gattai's it becomes Rank A and can work agaisnt Sefar

TLDR prep gattai giant robot with Zeus in control = Sefar > no prep Greek pantheon

[Byegod]

Well based on the Nasu blog, PHH greeks didnt take the situation seriously spending their time laughing at the other pantheons for being afraid of "alien invaders" rather then prepping

In LB, Zeus alone took Sefar seriously, and forced the other gods to Gattai against their will and still only got a draw.

So i guess Zeus alone only has Anti-"conceptual stuff" rank B and once he Gattai's it becomes Rank A and can work agaisnt Sefar

TLDR prep gattai giant robot with Zeus in control = Sefar > no prep Greek pantheon

That sounds like asscovering a plothole more than anything, and that still requires a extrapolation to cover the lb5.2 and the interview saying two different things

[Lily Emilio]

Well based on the Nasu blog, PHH greeks didnt take the situation seriously spending their time laughing at the other pantheons for being afraid of "alien invaders" rather then prepping

In LB, Zeus alone took Sefar seriously, and forced the other gods to Gattai against their will and still only got a draw.

So i guess Zeus alone only has Anti-"conceptual stuff" rank B and once he Gattai's it becomes Rank A and can work agaisnt Sefar

TLDR prep gattai giant robot with Zeus in control = Sefar > no prep Greek pantheon

You don't need anti-concept things to beat Sefar. You just need to hit her hard enough with a pure energy attack, so hard that even if she absorbs some of it, the impact can still does damage. Vasavi Shakti is mentioned by Gil to be effective on Sefar in Extella, and its attack is a pure beam of lightning, something Zeus definitely is capable of doing. Perhaps him alone cannot generate a thunderbolt as potent as Vasavi Shakti used by Indra, hence he needed the fusion. LB5 kept repeating how Zeus' thunderbolt pulverized Sefar, and boasting that it can incinerate the galaxy should all limiters removed, so I'd go with him just hitting her with super thunderbolt in LB5.

[madarra]

That sounds like asscovering a plothole more than anything, and that still requires a extrapolation to cover the lb5.2 and the interview saying two different things

I dont care that biased Zeus+cronies or at best Sakurai says "I definitely beat her" and Nasu says "it was a draw" its irrelevant. Sefar is gone.

[OnesFleetingGlory]

Still not certain how effective Anti-Concept would be against another alien. Judging from the name, I'd say it targets beings shaped by beliefs and perceptions, so like worshipped figures and deities from legends and myths. Unsure how much use it has against a fellow alien whose existence isn't dependant on those.

[Lily Emilio]

That sounds like asscovering a plothole more than anything, and that still requires a extrapolation to cover the lb5.2 and the interview saying two different things

The only thing regarding it in the interview that matches what was said in LB5 was about the fight being extremely difficult, that's about it.

[OnesFleetingGlory]

You don't need anti-concept things to beat Sefar. You just need to hit her hard enough with a pure energy attack, so hard that even if she absorbs some of it, the impact can still does damage. Vasavi Shakti is mentioned by Gil to be effective on Sefar in Extella, and its attack is a pure beam of lightning, something Zeus definitely is capable of doing. Perhaps him alone cannot generate a thunderbolt as potent as Vasavi Shakti used by Indra, hence he needed the fusion. LB5 kept repeating how Zeus' thunderbolt pulverized Sefar, and boasting that it can incinerate the galaxy should all limiters removed, so I'd go with him just hitting her with super thunderbolt in LB5.

Well, Olympus' gonna be released in late March for NA, but I'd like to ask, do you know which chapter that dialogue happened?

[madarra]

Still not certain how effective Anti-Concept would be against another alien. Judging from the name, I'd say it targets beings shaped by beliefs and perceptions, so like worshipped figures and deities from legends and myths. Unsure how much use it has against a fellow alien whose existence isn't dependant on those.

I mean, i also wanna call bulshit on human stuff not working on Types cuz they are aliens without said concepts, yet everything the Types do seems to be effective to us. (Wheres my 20 minute diatribe on how Type Mars is attacking us with a gjbcjdjfhe attack yet its innefective cuz humans dont have a concept of gjbcjdjfhe?)

So in dont have a problem believing Space Battleship Zeus, traveling the universe fucking all the aliens like captain Kirk being capable of fighting said aliens at any time as if he was prepped for space travel hostile encounters.