Badass Versus Thread

[Ronove]

"具体的に言うと「人」と「星」のカテゴリサーヴァントの宝具に対してバリアがつく。"
It is pretty clear that it specifically targets mankind and planetary entities.
It is not about mankind history. Nega-genesis is effective at killing people and things derived from the planet.

Zeus is literally an alien robot.

It is specifically about history, hence nega-"genesis".

A Skill of the same kind as “Nega-Messiah” that Beast VI possesses. A conceptual Bounded Field that entirely disproves the current evolutionary theory and the predictions of how the earth was created. By carrying this, Beast II nullifies the Noble Phantasms of Servants born from proper human history. Specifically speaking, a barrier takes root against the Noble Phantasms of Servants with the Attributes “Man” and “Star”.

This is the primary description of the skill. First, asides the bolded - and in the Japanese text you cited - this isn't the root of the skill itself. It's an application, which differs depending on the source. In the materials, Nega-genesis provides immunity to NP of servants of specific attributes, man and star. In her profile, it is resistance to the NPs of servants in general.

ビーストⅥが持つ『ネガ・メサイヤ』と同類のスキル。
現在の進化論、地球創世の予測をことごとく覆す概念結界。
これをおびたビーストⅡは、正しい人類史から生まれたサーヴァントたちの宝具に強い耐性を獲得 する。

In the anime, it is a universal field that overwrites the world, kills all things non-living, and creates new life in its place.

Spoiler:

All sound pretty different if you ask me. The consistent principle of Nega-Genesis is to deny moderns views of history, and the creation of the world. The rest are just various ways it can be applied as an effect. The specific effect that the anime awarded it, is just about killing everything that doesn't count as life in its barrier as it creates the world.

That aside. The Greeks, who created a prominent civilization in history definitely count as natives to Earth's system.

Holmes:

It is using a system which belongs to space.
So to our common sense, it is something foreign……
is that what you are saying?
Sion:
Unfortunately so.
No matter how strong Black Barrel is,

won’t be able to target the [life]
Measuring the level of a [star] or a [planet]’s lifespan,
A calculation formula which could replace the weapon’s current one,
humanity has not yet acquired it.
The gods of Olympus were only able to be defeated

The gods of Olympus were only able to be defeated
using a hypothesis which does not hold outside of their Lostbelt ----

No, it was possible because the fact existed that

“They were originally the cornerstone of human history

In addition to this, these ties are likely why the Roman servants in Olympus could act as conceptual counters. Turns out when they get the benefits from human worship for thousands of years, they get all the baggage alongside it.

[Ronove]

You can't have it both ways.

If you want to interpret it in the spirit entry and game mechanics, then it is obvious it is supposed to be anti-Terran creatures.

If you want to interpret it literally, then the literal underlying Concept is re-writing Theory of Evolution and the idea of Earth Genesis.

In both cases, it has nothing to do with Zeus.

No idea what you mean by this. I'm telling you that your focus (only affecting servants born from human history) isn't on the basis of the skill, it's on an effect. Said effect that has nothing to do with the kill mechanism in the first place, which was first displayed in the anime, not the game.

The only consistency behind the three known effects of Nega-Genesis is that they have the principle of evolution and creation, which applies to Zeus, because he is part of the world's history and is treated as an Earth life-form because of it. Regardless, the anime effect is about living and non-living.

[5-Sai Bot]

Unfortunately so.

No matter how strong Black Barrel is,

won’t be able to target the [life]

Measuring the level of a [star] or a [planet]’s lifespan,

A calculation formula which could replace the weapon’s current one,

humanity has not yet acquired it.

The gods of Olympus were only able to be defeated

using a hypothesis which does not hold outside of their Lostbelt ----

No, it was possible because the fact existed that

“They were originally the cornerstone of human history”

Yes, they are part of human history in that they partially founded human history. They existed before human history. Zeus would be different from those born from human history (正しい人類史から生まれたサーヴァントたち), as indicated in Tiama's entry.

If you take the "human history" part literally, how do you explain that Tiamat does not block Divine tag, but only Mankind and Star tags?

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No idea what you mean by this. I'm telling you that your focus (only affecting servants born from human history) isn't on the basis of the skill, it's on an effect. Said effect that has nothing to do with the kill mechanism in the first place, which was first displayed in the anime, not the game.

The only consistency behind the three known effects of Nega-Genesis is that they have the principle of evolution and creation, which applies to Zeus, because he is part of the world's history and is treated as an Earth life-form because of it. Regardless, the anime effect is about living and non-living.

And I would say that interpretation is incorrect, and skewing the different sources.
Especially if you take into account the Japanese as well as gameplay context.

[Ronove]

Yeah, I can pretty much see we're not on the same page here, so I'll try to explain as clearly as I can. If you disagree, fine.

If you take the "human history" part literally, how do you explain that Tiamat does not block Divine tag, but only Mankind and Star tags?

I'll ask a different question: Following this, why would Tiamat not block ALL attributes, rather than just man and star? There are quite a few others like Earth and Sky. That's just (an) application of the effect, not the only one. The profile page lists that NG can resist servant NPs from human history, not just those of man and star. But unlike the material page, it is resistance, not full-blown immunity. These are not the same effect. Either the profile and materials contradicted each other, use deliberately confusing terminologies, or list separate effects that the other does not cover as they are not mutually exclusive.

edit:not sure if you're aware of this either, but divinity and attribute are two separate categories. Divinity is a skill. Man/Star are attributes. Man/Star attributes may comprise divinities, servants who have divinity, or even non-humans.

and skewing the different sources.

We are talking about one source, lol. In so far as Zeus can be affected.

I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand. Tiamat's NG would have no effect on Zeus going by the game, but this would have nothing to do with Zeus' origins. It would be ineffective because game NG does not kill at all. It doesn't even injure anyone. All it does is block NPs. Posts centered on Nega-Genesis destroying anyone would have to be referencing the anime because that is the only source to cite that particular application.

[Bunhelier]

I don't understand, Fujimaru can walk fine in Nega-Genesis so how Zeus, a living God can't? Zeus is not a servant too.

If Nega-Genesis really that potent then how Ereshkigal's NP can partially slow it down?


And regarding Zeus' anti-concept, it is hard since we don't know what's exactly it does but if we take Types as the basis it simply does not care to whatever concept or laws of the planet hence they do not have the concept of death.

But the question is does Zeus can ignore the concept of Tiamat's immortality and Tiamat's concept of life? Not sure.

[Ronove]

I don't understand, Fujimaru can walk fine in Nega-Genesis so how Zeus, a living God can't? Zeus is not a servant too.

Lahmu and Merlin are also alive and not servants. None of them would survive Nega-Genesis by Merlin's admission and outright showings on the part of the Lahmu.

Of Nega-Genesis really that potent then how Ereshkigal's NP can partially slow it down?

He might be able to, who knows? I don't think this is a good reason for it though. Ereshkigal's NP was the trump card of the underworld, a space that regularly makes divine even chief gods powerless. We have nothing to compare it to from Zeus. Nothing he can use immediately at least. His super galaxy-nuke should do it, but that needed a charge.

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Well, if you follow the context, Tiamat should not block ALL attributes.

It does. Profile says it does. There are two definitions for her protection. Immunity and resistance. Man and Star are immunity. The rest is resistance when taking the profile and materials together. Maybe you should stop using block as an umbrella term?

It basically blocks all ideas derived from men (born from human history).

If you choose to interpret "born from human history" in the manner of figurative created by men instead of just the history of life sure. Pretty sure that's not what it means though. I'm also doubly unsure of why you think this effect matters.

Zeus isn't a servant or a heroic spirit. There's no reason why his authorities (not even NPs) would be resisted/negated from the start.

I do not see how Nega-Genesis (an Earth-bound power that rejects men/life forms/evolution) would affect a literal super dimensional battleship from outer space.

Machine god became Earth-bound, simple.
Nega-Genesis (anime) is never said to be limited to affecting beings from Earth anyway.

[Bunhelier]

Lahmu and Merlin are also alive and not servants. None of them would survive Nega-Genesis by Merlin's admission and outright showings on the part of the Lahmu.



He might be able to, who knows? I don't think this is a good reason for it though. Ereshkigal's NP was the trump card of the underworld, a space that regularly makes divine even chief gods powerless. We have nothing to compare it to from Zeus. Nothing he can use immediately at least. His super galaxy-nuke should do it, but that needed a charge.

Bel Lahmu does not get affected tho, and Merlin is servant, his living body is not present, remember that the reason why Merlin can be summoned because in Babylonia he isnt born yet thus he cannot be considered as alive.

[Ronove]

Well it literally says "born/derived" from it. I don't know how you can be "pretty sure" without reading it.

I think you ought to have? Because there's a key word you omitted.

By carrying this, Beast II nullifies the Noble Phantasms of Servants born from proper human history

It's not about ideas born from man, but things created in proper human history, which has a very specific meaning going by the lostbelts. It's sort of central to the plot.

Well, shit, Interstellar is literally in the name of Zeus (星間戦闘用殲滅型機動要塞旗艦). How you made it so "Earth-bound, simple"?

He can be named whatever he wants, what he became is a part of human history. If Zeus was a foreign existence to earth like actual aliens, BB would not have worked on him. He was worshiped by humanity and became "Earth-bound". But all this is pointless.

I'm also doubly unsure of why you think this effect matters. Zeus isn't a servant or a heroic spirit. There's no reason why his authorities (not even NPs) would be resisted/negated from the start.

NG cannot resist or negate Zeus' attacks in the first place. Only the anime's effect, which is something very different from the barrier that repels noble phantasms would be able to work.

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Bel Lahmu does not get affected tho

Spoiler:

and Merlin is servant, his living body is not present, remember that the reason why Merlin can be summoned because in Babylonia he isnt born yet thus he cannot be considered as alive.

Spoiler:

[Bunhelier]

...

Ah.. right forgot about that, so why Fujimaru does not get affected then?

[Ronove]

If you are going to be a pedant, then the Greek Gods exist in proper history as the bearded men or women in the sky.

Gattai Zeus only exist in lostbelts, because the Machine Gods winning was not in the proper history.

Not really sure how I can be called pedantic when I literally told you this barrier is not going to work and any argument on that matter is pointless. To which, you're trying to argue with another (correct, to your credit) reason over why it's not going to work...

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Ah.. right forgot about that, so why Fujimaru does not get affected then?

No surefire reason provided, only interpretations.

-Fujimaru is officially unharmed because he is 100% biological, living human
-Lahmu and Merlin are living, but they are also spiritual/magical beings...but so is Fou (right?) who ended up being just fine.

Maybe the anime team was just really inconsistent. If so, they shot their own premise in the foot right out of the gate and what Nega Genesis is shown to affect is just really arbitrary.

[Ronove]

I don't even know where I am going with this, but the point I am making is that Tiamat does not have sort of kill authority over Zeus.

And I'm telling you that Nega-Genesis' death effect is irrelevant to the effects you keep focusing on. The effect is about life and non-life as it creates a new world in its environment. Even the tangible world around it gets its effects overwritten with what Tiamat is now trying to produce. Zeus has no authority above the beasts. In fact, the exact opposite is to suggested in LB5-LB5.5

Zeus gattai is on the tier of Sefar, which is a planetary threat.
Tiamat is a threat to life on Earth, but I question if it is any good at killing concepts that are more alien.

All beasts are planetary threats. This is, again, something we are blatantly told in Olympus.

[Ronove]

I understand that.

What I am getting at is the how and why. Tiamat is a planetary threat because it is anti-mankind and anti-evolution or whatever.

It does not have a good affinity against stuff like Zeus or Sefar, which are basically like Aristotles.

Like, I would not feel so strongly if you ask me if Zeus is gonna win against ORT. I am not sure, because they are kinda the same thing.

Tiamat is a planetary threat because she can cover the world in mud (which overwrites its laws) and create millions of Lahmu (no idea why these are often forgotten?). The collective hivemind can become a new prime species, replacing humanity as the central power over the planet. Tiamat herself, is a problem as she can't be killed to stop this. Zeus has more than enough firepower to eviscerate her body, but it's not going to matter in the end. Sefar isn't actually much different than she is. Sefar's gimmick is that she absorbs information so 99% of the world can't harm her. The beings powerful enough to have their attacks negated. In the meanwhile, she punches their heads in until she accumulates enough power to self-terminate and blow up the world's surface with her.

[AAM1232]

I mean if you're continually getting blasted away that's as much of a loss as anything else. Doesn't really matter if you keep coming back if you can't do much at all.

[Ronove]

I mean if you're continually getting blasted away that's as much of a loss as anything else. Doesn't really matter if you keep coming back if you can't do much at all.

Not really. Hit a brick wall and you'll get tired of punching eventually.
Tiamat has a win condition. Either Nega-Genesis or withering Zeus down by draining his stamina or using her Lahmu.
Zeus, on the other hand, has none.

[AAM1232]

I don't really buy Nega Genesis being this super weapon against Zeus.

[Ronove]

Alien entities do not play by the rules, that is why you have to use weird stuff like Black Barrel.

I can agree with everything except this. Zeus is not an alien entity anymore.

When he and the gods landed, they acclimated to Earth and became linked to their worship. Black Barrel Replica (as in, not the real thing that kills Types in Notes) is not necessary to defeat Zeus. He was already just about dead before it was even used as his lifespan was calc'd at a critically low value. And you've got it backwards. The only reason Black Barrel could work is because he wasn't alien to the human calculations behind it. The alien god by comparison uses foreign powers so BB Replica can't even measure her like it can with Zeus.

Being alien doesn't give a free-pass either. Sefar was killed by an Earth-born weapon. And Tiamat in particular is stated to be un-beatable by aliens.

ケツァル・コアトルあんなのはもう大絶滅以前の、
創世記だけの権能です！　宇宙人でも倒せないヨ！

This was before any of them even knew that she was immortal.

[OnesFleetingGlory]

What about when dealing with Cernunnos? Did Black Barrel measure its lifespan before shooting?

[Lily Emilio]

It does not have a good affinity against stuff like Zeus or Sefar, which are basically like Aristotles.

Like, I would not feel so strongly if you ask me if Zeus is gonna win against ORT. I am not sure, because they are kinda the same thing.

Actually Tiamat is more Type-like than Zeus tbh. She inherently has no concept of death (a trait exclusively belong to Types until she shows up). The mere event of her awakening caused the entire Mesopotamia to enter a spacetime drift, similar to when Archetype Earth caused Atlas institute to spacetime drift when she awakens in the MBAA manga. Her body is said to represent the planet itself with the horns being the continents and the hair being the sea. Her eyes reflect the Inner Sea of the Planet. Her mud was also what was used to create Enkidu, who is compared to be like a discount Arcueid before. And because she is completely self-sustained enough to act as a Interstellar Ark of God that can travel the universe, if she lands on another planet that is not Earth, she would just be a sort of pseudo-Type who cannot be killed by conventional means due to her lack of death concept, while being able to contaminate such planet with her Sea of Life and birth new species to basically terraform that new planet. Her being beatable on Earth is mostly due to her ties to its history and creations, making Earth concepts work on her.

The machine gods OTOH still has concept of death, and can be defeated without the use of Black Barrel just like how Artemis and Poseidon were killed in Atlantis. The Black Barrel was used not because Demeter, Aphrodite or Zeus doesn't have concept of death, but because it is a conceptual weapon capable of manifesting "life span" - a universal concept that ALL entities in the universe have, thus able to shutdown the machine god's cores regardless of their strength, as long as you can hit their core somehow. Remember that it was able to measure their life span but could not measure U-Olga's, a being classified as Beast VII which is a concept tie to humanity as a whole, because said being has too many unknown.

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What about when dealing with Cernunnos? Did Black Barrel measure its lifespan before shooting?

Nope. The Black Barrel was used as a huge beam to break his divine core after it is exposed via Castoria's attack. It was also used in Tunguska against the giant Lost Weapons that Koyan made.

[Kubera]

I'm assuming it's Lostbelt Zeus, which is a Machine God. In which case, he outclasses Tiamat who is a Divine Spirit.

I think that's the actual living Tiamat and not a weakened divine spirit, as she was sealed long before Sefar started the Gods' decline. Even if she was, she eventually regressed to her primordial form, which again is from before the gods degraded.

Zeus fought Sefar, and Sefar is several tiers higher than puny Beasts.

Sefar being above Beasts is already something I'd argue against, but several tiers seems like quite the exxageration. Especially since Amaterasu explicitly surpasses Sefar and only lost due to compatibility and both Goetia and Tiamat can be scaled from her.

Compatibility is the only deciding factor about which of them Sefar could beat.

And regarding Zeus' anti-concept, it is hard since we don't know what's exactly it does but if we take Types as the basis it simply does not care to whatever concept or laws of the planet hence they do not have the concept of death.

But the question is does Zeus can ignore the concept of Tiamat's immortality and Tiamat's concept of life? Not sure.

I'd say it's quite a reach to interpret Zeus' authority that way, for the same reason Gilgamesh can't straight up beat any god just because his chains are anti-divine.
Also if it was that busted of an ability I'm fairly sure it would have bypassed Quirinus' own hax.

That's the thing.

If you distill Tiamat down to the fundamental level, it is a creature of Earth. It can re-write Earth, but it is still bound by Earth rules.

Alien entities do not play by the rules, that is why you have to use weird stuff like Black Barrel.

You only get to "not play by the rules" if you're completely outside the whole system. Aliens that were integrated by it, like the Olympians specifically are, do not get that privilege.

Just because ORT is chilling on Earth, does not mean ORT is suddenly Earth-bound though.

ORT isn't a cornerstone of human history.

[Bunhelier]

No surefire reason provided, only interpretations.

-Fujimaru is officially unharmed because he is 100% biological, living human
-Lahmu and Merlin are living, but they are also spiritual/magical beings...but so is Fou (right?) who ended up being just fine.

Maybe the anime team was just really inconsistent. If so, they shot their own premise in the foot right out of the gate and what Nega Genesis is shown to affect is just really arbitrary.

I'm still really not sure if its going to work on Zeus, its does not work on Fujimaru and Fou since they are living and not servant, and just rewatched Babylonia, Merlin use the same method as to be summoned as Servant to escape from Avalon hence Nega-Genesis would still works on him, also didnt Lahmu is created based on Dead Human? Hence we get Siduri Lahmu, so yeah Living being like Fujimaru and Fou can walk fine in NG and so is Zeus.