well herk never cannonly smacked away a broken phantasm. that was just the anime, he actually died to it, and its how he lost one of his lives. plus how its cannon that he can kill berserker seven times.
well herk never cannonly smacked away a broken phantasm. that was just the anime, he actually died to it, and its how he lost one of his lives. plus how its cannon that he can kill berserker seven times.
Actually that's backwards. In the VN Herk ignores everything until Archer pulls out Caladbolg II and smacks it because he senses it'd kill him.Originally Posted by Serverntclassslave
In the Anime it hits and takes a life because Saber makes an opening by killing him with a Mini-Calibur blast.
Even then, he's still the dude who regularly spars with and beats Captain, and killed off dozens of heroes during and after the Conquest. But yeah, if he can direct Fran in realtime, she'd be way harder to kill, though frankly she's a really weak Servant to begin with. I'd actually give him good odds of beating her by himself.
Ah, fair enough, I was thinking the pegasus was already a phantasmal from the start, which then got stronger, but the bulls were just regular bulls till they were sacrificed to Zeus and then the story gave them power.
Though, again, the pegasus is directly compared to a flying wall of mana (remember how it just vaporised that hallway in the Fate route, at the point in the story before Bellerophon is brought out), whereas F/Z focuses on the hooves of the bulls and the lightning they stomp into existence. I'm gonna say they aren't supernaturally durable (or at least not to the extent pegasus is, they could probably shrug off some fairly powerful swings), and that the A+ is down to them generating destruction just by walking.
And yeah, Iskander wasn't even really trying when he stomped Lancelot, and still the dude with fairy protection, some pretty damn good armour and mad enhancement barely survived.
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I mean heres what i think happens, although I'm more interested in who yall think would win.
frank and servant probably just leave and go kill the yakuza or something maybe a couple terrorist groups if they have the time.
black probably imediantly kills priestess before she even gets a chance to fight, because you know hes sort of an expert at fighting hero types like her, thus removing the danger of santa lilly alter.
id imagine hed command seal fran suicde bomb iskandor and then use that distraction to kill olivier and steal her command seals, and considering he once persuaded an dragon i imagine he could convince iskandor to help him.
from thier id imagine hed go for illya and archer, I honestly dont know how that battle would go.
and i mean the same for bonesaw becuase it could go either way, i mean the stuff bonesaw can do with viruses and plant life arguably makes her more of a danger then her servant, and thats just assuming she cant figure how mana works, i mean if that happens the world is screwed magicaly bonesaw is a please no.
Well, the lightning is super Zeus authority concept lightning after all.
That said Pegasus is pretty much noted to be a defense build and such. It's whole flying wall of magic energy is more of a phantasmal trait in general I'd argue however, since they're all basically mana bursting on steroids for that sort of aura. If you were talking about the massive energy of Bellerophon that adds to its defense that's one thing, but considering the situation I'm pretty sure you're just talking about Pegasus normally with its super phantasmal beast mana burst (aura)
For what it's worth Saber does compare the base defense (and general prowess) of the Pegasus to a dragon. Bellerophron then multiples it several times over. I really doubt that the bulls neat as they are can really compete with it. Iskander is a summoner not a tank.
"We have entered an infinite recursion of Saber."
Two divine beast rank bulls > one monstrous beast but phantasmal level Pegasus
Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.
This is Gordius wheel alone."So, that here was only the beginning. The Noble Phantasm I really rely on is yet something else. Well, when the opportunity appears, I'll show you. If I meet a formidable opponent worthy of it, that is."
In awe, Waver viewed Rider in a new light. Precisely because he is a magus, he understands the destructive power of the Noble Phantasm in front of him. Compared to a modern day weapon, that would rival a strategic bomber. He would transform the whole Shinto area into scorched earth if he was left wild for not even an hour.
vs Lancelot
Full Saber or Diarmuid attack is say B rank.From its appearance, it was an antique chariot with two prows. War horses were not yoked on the shaft, but handsome bulls with muscles rippling like waves. Their hooves ploughed the empty space, pulling the luxurious and splendid chariot forward.
No, the chariot was not merely floating in air. Its wheels boomed loudly; it was not solid ground but lightning that the bulls stood upon.
Every time the bulls' hooves and the chariot 'stomped' upon the empty sky, violet lightning spread like a web, rolling the air upwards with deafening roars. The prana spurting from the lightning was probably what Lancer and Saber can only unleash if they use up every single ounce of their strength.
...
Accompanying Rider’s war cry, the two divine bulls first kicked the black knight to the ground with their four front hooves, and then trampled the black knight mercilessly with their four hind hooves. Each hoof was enveloped with rolling purple lightning; just one kick would have been a very heavy hit. The divine bulls trampled upon Berserker eight times overall and his wounds must have been fatal. After Rider’s chariot roared past, Berserker didn’t even have the strength to stand. The figure with the black armour lied face up on the ground.
Lancelot gets hits 8 B rank attacks + 8x hove damage.
Via Expugnatio
bulls stronk“Light is at the other end of the world—conquer! Via Expugnatio: Distant Trampling Domination!”
The true name of that which had finally been released, the chariot drawn by divine bulls from which lightning suddenly burst forth. The majestic braying of the divine bulls under whose feet Berserker had been trampled in the first battle could never compare to this.
“—Let the wind come!”
Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.
Bulls > Pegasus but Bulls =? Pegasus + Bellerophon imo.
A super monster that you add an A+ buff NP onto is really strong, news at 11.
Well, they probably have different loadouts (stand stat arrays) [EVs] and strengths too but.
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Shirou’s just a pretty normal housewife really. but no one talks about Rin and her West Taiwan food smh
This is just pure opinion but I always got the impression that the Bellerophon Pegasus was stronger in both offense and defense then the bulls. Bellerophon vs Excalibur was described as the ultimate clash between phantasm and Bellerophon actually nearly won. I don’t know if there was ever any implication that the chariot had ever been close to actually overpowering Excalibur.
If not all Divine Spirits are stronger than all Heroic Spirits, and some Divine Spirits like Stheno and Euryale are weak as hell, why do we assume that Divine Beasts are always going to be stronger than Phantasmal Beasts?
Especially because Iskandar's bulls look like they're on the low end as far as Divine Beasts go, while Pegasus should be among the strongest Phantasmal Beasts since it's compared to dragons and fared so well against Excalibur.
And aren't Fafnir, Tarasque and the likes also Phantasmal Beasts or am I misunderstanding something? I have an hard time imagining Iskandar's bulls defeating them.
You're trying to compare two completely different things to (as if Heroic Spirits can be compared at all considering we've never seen one) to try and dispute another comparison. Where's the logic in this? How does a comparison between Stheno/Euryale and HSs make it difficult to assume Divine Beasts can be better than Phantasmal Beasts?
It isn't really a rule that Divine Beasts are stronger than Phantasmal Beasts, or are you telling me that one of Iskandar's bulls is stronger than Merem Solomon's dog-whale-thingy or Fafnir?
Edit: Some sort of proof is that both divine and Phantasmal Beasts can be ridden with A+ Riding, but for dragons you need an additional +.
Edit 2: Nevermind Dragons aren't included in the Riding skill at all, I didn't think that Martha was an exception.
Last edited by Mementore; October 3rd, 2020 at 09:05 AM.
My point is that the classifications in Nasuland are often just a general rule and not absolutes.
Divine Spirits are generally stronger than Heroic Spirits, but when you compare the strongest HS to the weakest DS it gets way more blurry. Servants are generally stronger than humans, but then the strongest humans can beat the weakest servants.
Of course I'm not going to question the power of any Divine Beast we see by basing my opinion on exceptions, but we are comparing a top class phantasmal to an average if not low class divine beast, so it's pretty weird to assume the bulls are automatically going to win because of their classification.
Last edited by Kubera; October 3rd, 2020 at 09:18 AM.
Technically I wasn’t arguing that the Pegasus was inherently stronger then the bulls, only that based on what we have seen it seems to be most likely that Pegasus plus Bellerophon is indeed superior to the chariot.
it’s a thin hair to split but ima split it anyway
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I have a (perhaps unfounded) feeling that one would end in a draw; something something, they've both achieved the state of Nothingness, and you can't cut or transcend Nothing, etc., etc.
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