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Thread: Badass Versus Thread

  1. #126061
    死徒 Dead Apostle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menwearpink View Post
    It’s altrogue’s faction which includes herself, primate murder and two other DAA knights that can exceed Type Moon or something.
    None of those guys were mentioned. It's said because Altrouge had Primate Murder, she could be considered superior to Crimson Moon, in a sense.



    I don't know how strong Altrouge is, but the phrasing sounds like PM is doing the heavy lifting while she reaps the benefits. Going by that means Primate Murder's stronger than Crimson Moon at best estimate or around that level at worst, that Altrouge's involvement tips the scales in their favor. I'd go with the former, because when Nasu talks about the DAA that are in completely different leagues than the rest, he also singles out ORT and PM, not CM.

    Q: Who would be stronger if Servants fought the 27 Ancestors? Servant's also have superhuman battle ability, but the 27 Ancestors are also superhuman monsters.... I got the impression that ORT, Primate Murder, Altrouge Brunestud, and so on were obviously stronger than Servants.

    A: All I can is they're both powerful.... They're both beings that live in mystery, so the only thing that can be said is that it all depends on the situation the moment it comes done to ""having the means of killing the other guy somehow". Among those, Earth rules won't even apply to ORT in the first place and Primate Murder has the super advantage against primates so they're in a league of their own, I suppose. Speaking of which, for one Primate Murder, seven Guardians would be the appropriate amount.
    So assuming Primate Murder and Beast Four are similar, that would be one case where beasts are stronger than types.

  2. #126062
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Blastedspider's Avatar
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    It is possible that Primate Murder is weaker than the Beast IV. All Beasts are supposedly proportional to the "strength" of the Human Order, and it is weaker in the Tsukihime-type worlds.

  3. #126063
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    Primate Murder is probably not a Beast in Tsukihime

  4. #126064
    Beasts are probably not a thing in Tsukihime in general

  5. #126065
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    They kind of were, given the capital letters in Gaia's Beast there, but were a different concept from the seven evils humanity must defeat.
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  6. #126066
    sorry, that's just translations Capitalising Important Terminology at work

  7. #126067
    never put any trust in translation capitalization
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  9. #126069
    Bad News LeadDemon's Avatar
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    But if something isn't a Proper Noun Phrase, how am I supposed to sound intelligent when I talk about it

  10. #126070
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six
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    I do feel trying to speculate these kind of match-ups, concerning stuff like Aristoteles and current Beasts, is a: hard to quanitfy in the first place, and b: honestly missing the point of it all.

    Sure, I also indulge in these kind of wankery, but to be serious for a second, these kind of concepts and their place in the narrative get kind of devalued by 'my dad can beat up your dad' comparisons.

    For one example, I would talk about ORT. In the grand scale of things, it doesn't matter as much as what is being told in the first place ie. main story of Notes. Note how its mentioned in the context of a hidden optional and unbeatable boss ala video games. It's not an active villain that forces confrontation, like the other Types and adversaries in that world. Quite frankly, it's a cosmic mistake as it is to this setting. Wherever it originated, it misunderstood the cry of Gaia and came over and is basically hibernating. So while ORT is ultimately a side detail in the greater scheme of things, that's how it should be and also because of how it was presented before carried these interesting implications besides its surface value.

    ORT displays itself as an example of several core and interesting ideas of the TM world. The most obvious is its alien nature. This is a being, a thing not easily accepted or understood by human comprehension. Ostensibly, it was an example of a greater presence beyond humanity and being a potential threat. Supposedly an answer to Gaia's call, it seems to display some kind of intelligence that recognized its supposed error and acted accordingly. The fact that it did so and has entrenched itself shoud be seen by any inhabitant of Earth to be deepingly worrying, a harbinger of the end whose actions bring great anxiety because of its purpose and the incongruituy of its actions despite it.

    It's a prime example of an alien sense of reality, being a literal displacement of the World through its Reality Marble, a complete world in one. This is a not a being that really reacts to others like any lifeform on Earth should. Did it consciously react accordingly to the Dead Apostle Ancestor who foolishly attacked it? Or was this the simple consequence of failing to ursurp this alien world, to be taken out by a hostile environment because you could not survive it? Is ORT a being that can even be understood or communicated with like any higher level sapient character TM has?

    And most importantly, this question is not quite answered. There in lies the mystery of ORT, mystery in one of its truest form in TM. It strikes me how this is the closest thing to Lovecraftian style in a world where it is most fundamentally at odds with what the 'story' of TM has been saying since its inception, while GO currently going even harder in that direction and ironically using actual Lovecraft characters to clumsily prove it.

    And that's why I keep internally cringing at this unabashed and shameless insertion of ORT as a prop for GO is doing so far. It's very frustrating to see this championed by whomever in the current fandom as desirable and necessary. I can only dispute it consistently. It comes across as colossally missing the original point of why this existed in this context. While this is an example of current direction cannibalizing its past to its detriment, to push a fight with ORT is a kind of simple minded way to engage it. It being explicitly unbeatable on Earth should not be an invitation to go 'oh yeah, lets fucking see' while swinging your dick and self-congratulatory notch a mark for fuck yeah humanity; it should be a contemplation, to reflect on how there is a truly bigger world out there than human order.

    In a way, this is a rather funny way of repeating that DAA's mistake. ORT is not your monster to defeat, a trophy to be showed off. There is not greater purpose in trying to fight it. It's just there. Even in the chaotic world of Notes, it does not seem to be a defining factor in what's continuing this conflict unlike Crimson Moon being the penultimate villain who orchestrated behind the scenes. It's a secret, a mystery of the world as TM has it.

    So to play out as what the Lostbelt saga of GO is suggesting is pretty disappointing. In a way, it's truly fitting.

  11. #126071
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    Quote Originally Posted by CO9p5JMGv!p9 View Post
    Beasts are probably not a thing in Tsukihime in general
    They probably were.

    Speaking of which, for one Primate Murder, seven Guardians would be the appropriate amount.
    Guardians here doesn't stand for counter guardians, but of the general 'knights' variety of the term. Almost definitely a reference to the seven grands, or the idea Nasu had in mind for them at the time. It flows with Sion's statements of seven grands being summoned to suppress a beast.

  12. #126072
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    Quote Originally Posted by CO9p5JMGv!p9 View Post
    Beasts are probably not a thing in Tsukihime in general
    Arc mentions an Original Sin that tried to do the same thing as Dust of Osiris. Maybe the True Ancestors dealt with Beasts since the Human Order wasn't strong enough?
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  13. #126073
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronove View Post
    Guardians here doesn't stand for counter guardians, but of the general 'knights' variety of the term. Almost definitely a reference to the seven grands, or the idea Nasu had in mind for them at the time. It flows with Sion's statements of seven grands being summoned to suppress a beast.
    It definitely meant counter guardians.

  14. #126074
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronove View Post
    They probably were.


    Guardians here doesn't stand for counter guardians, but of the general 'knights' variety of the term. Almost definitely a reference to the seven grands, or the idea Nasu had in mind for them at the time. It flows with Sion's statements of seven grands being summoned to suppress a beast.
    Q:サーヴァントと”吸血鬼の二十七祖”が戦った場合、どちらのほうが強いでしょうか?サーヴァントも人外 の戦闘能力を持っていますが、二十七祖も人間離れした怪物ですし......。特にORTやプライミッツマ ーダー、アルトルージュ・ブリュンスタッドなどは、あからさまにサーヴァントよち強いような印象を受けまし た。

    A:どっちもどっち、としか・・・・・・。どちらも神秘に生きるものたちなので、"なんとかして殺す手段が ある"時点で状況次第としか言えません。そんななか、 ORTはそもそも地球上でのルールが成立しないし、プライミッツマーダーは霊長に対して超有利なので別格で しょうか。ちなみに、プライミッツマーダー1匹に対して守護者七騎であたるのが妥当なところです。
    Q: Who would be stronger if Servants fought the 27 Ancestors? Servant's also have superhuman battle ability, but the 27 Ancestors are also superhuman monsters.... I got the impression that ORT, Primate Murder, Altrouge Brunestud, and so on were obviously stronger than Servants.

    A: All I can is they're both powerful.... They're both beings that live in mystery, so the only thing that can be said is that it all depends on the situation the moment it comes done to ""having the means of killing the other guy somehow". Among those, Earth rules won't even apply to ORT in the first place and Primate Murder has the super advantage against primates so they're in a league of their own, I suppose. Speaking of which, for one Primate Murder, seven Guardians would be the appropriate amount.
    英霊#report error
    事柄
    生前偉大な功績をあげ、死後においてなお信仰の対象となった英雄がなるモノ。
    “人間を守る”力としては最高位の存在であり、その分類は亡霊ではなく精霊に近い。
    精霊は人々のイメージという筐を使って具現化する“力”であるが、英霊はその中身も人々の理想で編まれてい る。
    英霊には、伝説上のもの、実在したもの、観測され なかったものがおり、信仰が薄いものは“守護者”という大きな分類に含まれ、意思のない“抑止力”として行 使される。
    本編に登場する英霊の中で“守護者”として機能している者はアーチャーのみ。
    他の英霊たちは神性が高かったり、人間側ではなく星よりの存在になっている為、守護者に取り込まれずに済ん でいる。
    Heroic Spirit#report error
    concept
    Heroes who achieved great things in life, and became objects of worship after death.
    As a “power that protects humanity,” they are high ranking existences, categorically closer to elementals than wraiths.
    However, whereas elementals are “power” given form using the container called human imagination, Heroic Spirits are woven from people’s ideals on the inside, too.
    Among the Heroic Spirits, there are those from legends, those that really existed, and those that were never observed at all. The ones who aren’t worshipped much fall under the broad classification of “Counter Guardian,” and are used as a mindless “Counter Force.”
    Of all the Heroic Spirits that appeared in the story, the only one functioning as a “Counter Guardian” was Archer.
    Because the other Heroic Spirits had high divinity, and were existences closer to the planet than humanity, they were able to avoid being drafted as Counter Guardians.
    騎 is the counter word Nasu made up for Servant, like pillar,柱, is for a god (this is the actual counter word for god in Japanese). As an aside that's also why they're the 72 Demon God Pillars and look like pillars. It's all another one of those Nasu puns.
    A simple explanation and list of common counter words in japanese:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_counter_word
    Last edited by You; August 5th, 2020 at 05:09 AM.
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  15. #126075
    Quote Originally Posted by Blastedspider View Post
    It is possible that Primate Murder is weaker than the Beast IV. All Beasts are supposedly proportional to the "strength" of the Human Order, and it is weaker in the Tsukihime-type worlds.
    In tsukihime type of worlds Gaia is stronger and Alaya weaker. So it could be the opposite (PM takes power from Gaia). I would go for equal.
    Last edited by Mementore; August 5th, 2020 at 11:06 AM.

  16. #126076
    Quote Originally Posted by Mementore View Post
    In tsukihime type of worlds Gaia is stronger and Alaya weaker. So it could be the opposite (PM takes power from Gaia). I would go for equal.
    No no no, it doesn't (really) have anything to do with Gaia or Alaya. It wasn't said that Beasts are proportionally strong to Alaya, nor that Alaya was weaker in Tsuki-worlds. In Tsuki-worlds, the human order is weaker, which should just more or less mean something along the lines of "humanity is less able to affirm itself in history" or whatever, and it is proportionally to the human order that beasts accumulate power, because as civilization grows and advances, humanity affirms itself as the sole ruling and superior species of the planet, and as such the human order is strengthened. It is this advancement of civilization that Beasts base their power off. A beast being summoned during the stone age would probably be significantly weaker than one summoned during the height of human civilization.

    Not to mention it doesn't really make much sense to say they draw power from Alaya itself, because Alaya is the prayer for mankind's survival so why would it empower the things that destroy humans, even if they are "destined to overcome it"?

    The way I see the whole PM thing is that Nasu probably had the idea of it being a "Beast" way back then but now we have the explicit world split and I wouldn't be surprised if now in tsuki-worlds the human order is simply too weak for the beasts to manifest, even though the candidates (like PM) still exist.
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  17. #126077
    Ok I may be confusing headcanon or fanfiction with lore but wasn't PM the Beast of Gaia and didn't he have the same kind of backup from heart Arcueid does? And does the beasts power really change with the strength of the human order? I mean Amaterasu as she appears in CCC is probably stronger than how she would be if she appears as a beast.
    And aren't the strength of the human order and Alaya connected?

  18. #126078
    Well idk if we can definitely answer all of that, but important to note here that Beast of Gaia (ガイアの怪物) and Beast (ビースト), as in the 7 beasts, are not the same thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcjon01 View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neir View Post
    your ability to be wrong about literally everything you post is truly astounding. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, but you haven't been right once.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kateikyo View Post
    The gay pics were the most entertaining thing going on in this discussion.

  19. #126079
    Quote Originally Posted by fumei View Post
    Well idk if we can definitely answer all of that, but important to note here that Beast of Gaia (ガイアの怪物) and Beast (ビースト), as in the 7 beasts, are not the same thing.
    Yeah, I knew that.

  20. #126080
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors fire_mountain_30's Avatar
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    It does mean that, but not literally.
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