Badass Versus Thread

[Nanaya]

Re

Here is a question. Would magic resistance even help against this stuff when it's rewriting the laws of the world with their own delusions? Didn't Ciel specifically counter Noel's own curse with one of the IB she has?

[Clown]

Spoiler:

It's not only a matter of power but also affinity. You realize how hard it is to still be operational when fighting at absolute zero temperature with a human body, yes?

Regen doesn't help you there, and you could have all the physical might that you want if you can't move properly, your effectiveness will be reduced. You'd have to be an embodiment of heat, possess your own Reality Marble or have innate magical resistance to be able to nullify that completely.

I don't believe either that she has the raw stats to go one on one with the Elder Apostles either. I doubt many in the modern era could. That's why you have to use every tool you have - the Burial Agency are considered a necessary evil after all. And also why Church members like their gadgets so much.

Still, the Burial Agency had to be buffed up in order for them to keep up with the updated DAA.

I didn't mean to be confrontational, only telling you to chill down (and space your text).

I can understand that the sudden increase in power might surprise or be difficult to swallow, but Nasu will do what he wants at the end of the day. Honestly, it wouldn't be a surprise if, as said earlier, Elder Dead Apostles end up a Beast level of threats. I mean, Primate Murder was in the old list, after all.

Spoiler:

IIRC Ciel had already mitigated the worst of the principle with her conceptual armor. Even considering how the principle was still eating away at her a bit despite this, I don't think she would've been weakened to the point where she would lose to what was basically a normal DA outside of the principle if she really was DAA tier especially since her ludicrous amount of magic circuits should give her decent anti magic, which makes me question whether she really is DAA tier.

To make matters worse we know practically nothing about how she beat the other DAAs. She might've gotten help, surprised them, or they might've been weakened beforehand somehow (similar to the instances where humans beat servants in F/SN despite not standing a chance normally). Therefore I don't think this is sufficient evidence to conclude she's DAA tier.

Somewhat unrelated, but I also don't think the burial agency were buffed quite to the same level the DAA were (except for Merem and the others near the top obviously). Otherwise the "1 DAA defeated every 100 years" would be odd since the Church seems more organized than the individualistic DAAs and shouldn't have that much trouble picking them off with a full team of DAA tier agents.

[Petrikow]

Spoiler:

Those 100 years are for sealing them which has a different nuance from "defeating". We can probably assume defeats have happened more than that. But as long as their Idea Blood remains in the world they are in a sense still alive. Or rather, their 'seat' is. The fact that 2 Ancestors are sealed by the Church means they have their Idea Blood under control. Interestingly enough they don't count Ciel's defeats as "sealings" despite them being by their own agent.

There's an implication (only a slight one) that her taking the Idea Blood for herself is sort of unauthorized (Mario complains about it after Andou turns up empty handed).

[Tepanyakigo]

Dang... I didnt think the discussion would get this far...

Makes me wonder about Lorelei now since she was supposed to be the biggest baddest mage ever before.

She is doing it for SPORTS yeah... I wonder when we can get pseudo-servant Lorelei... DO IT FGO haha...ha.ha.... On a second thought... it doesnt sound like a good idea...

Are DAA even supposed to be compared to servants? Didn't he say in response to a question about DAA possibly being seen as weak compared to world threats that the modern story scale is only what it is because of TsukiRE? They are the 'Villains'/'Antagonists' after all. And isn't Arc supposed to just be the strongest? Anyway to add to Ciel Wank.

RE

She probably deserves credit for blocking casually 'serious' Red Arc's city shredding attacks when she starts partially deflecting the earths rotation. Her new ability to reduce spell casting to the utmost limit through IB seems worth mentioning too.

Spoiler:

SAY WHAT!? I didnt read Tsuki:Re properly due to my low Japanese skill... Did Arc just do some Accelerator shenanigans by messing around with earth's rotation? HOLY SH*T

[AmADo VII]

looking forward to Tohno clan power level discussion in the future.

[Nanaya]

Spoiler:

Those 100 years are for sealing them which has a different nuance from "defeating". We can probably assume defeats have happened more than that. But as long as their Idea Blood remains in the world they are in a sense still alive. Or rather, their 'seat' is. The fact that 2 Ancestors are sealed by the Church means they have their Idea Blood under control. Interestingly enough they don't count Ciel's defeats as "sealings" despite them being by their own agent.


There's an implication (only a slight one) that her taking the Idea Blood for herself is sort of unauthorized (Mario complains about it after Andou turns up empty handed).

Spoiler:

It does feel like they are setting up Ciel(And maybe Akiha!? I seem to recall an old entry implying it) as a more proper rival for Arc with some of the foreshadowing. I do wanna see more seven tricks... Anyway Noel's not the most in the know, clearly, since she didn't know Ciel had killed them previously, but she did seem to think it was the first time an Ancestor has been killed. I don't really think the fact that it takes a hundred years to plan an attempt at sealing one matters in terms of strength of the church who we already know is powerful. It just shows how dangerous higher tier vamps are. The majority of human beings can't even cross blades with weaker vampires who are a 'let them pass' type of disaster that just poisons the world by existing in Tsukihime's world. No matter how powerful a Burial Agent(I'm sure they'll all have their own unique busted as fuck capabilities though) is, there remains the little problem that a vampire can instantly revive from being killed and most other beings, no matter how powerful or haxed, usually can't survive even a truly lethal attack. Even Ciel would have instantly 'died' if not for her armor and she's got the most potential of any human. And her body flat out negates some magic effects going by the underground encounter. She can even use IB to counter curses. Vlov's weapon was special and he's a master knight who gets better and more aware seemingly the closer he is to death and the less blood he has. Ciel even has a special sword style suited for this kind of extermination so compatibility matters as always. Given that they don't know anything about Vlov after hundreds of years it's probably also somewhat of an issue of finding them or keeping tabs on them as well. You also got to consider if they have any other vamps around of decent rank or abilities when planning an attack probably. Imagine going on a DAA hunt and finding a coven. Might be a little like this

Edit: I think Lorelei will be a Tsukihime character for the most part given her vampire lore.

[OnesFleetingGlory]

Dang... I didnt think the discussion would get this far...



She is doing it for SPORTS yeah... I wonder when we can get pseudo-servant Lorelei... DO IT FGO haha...ha.ha.... On a second thought... it doesnt sound like a good idea...

Spoiler:

SAY WHAT!? I didnt read Tsuki:Re properly due to my low Japanese skill... Did Arc just do some Accelerator shenanigans by messing around with earth's rotation? HOLY SH*T

It's a known fact about Arcueid as far back as MBAA.

[Tepanyakigo]

It's a known fact about Arcueid as far back as MBAA.

You mean Arche-Type Earth a.k.a princess mode right? But can she do it without using that authority (given by the planet itself I presume)?

[Clown]

You mean Arche-Type Earth a.k.a princess mode right? But can she do it without using that authority (given by the planet itself I presume)?

Probably not. Outside of her Earth authority Archetype Earth is weaker than TYPE Moon and even he couldn't do that (hell, TYPE Moon is apparently weaker than Altrogue + Primate Murder according to old lore).

[Daiki]

Re

Here is a question. Would magic resistance even help against this stuff when it's rewriting the laws of the world with their own delusions?

In the sense that you're mitigating / negating its effects on yourself? I would say yes. In the sense that you're canceling outright the active skill? Much less likely.

Spoiler:

Therefore I don't think this is sufficient evidence to conclude she's DAA tier.

Did you... actually bother to read my post?

[Clown]

Did you... actually bother to read my post?

Yes, I don't think Ciel could win a fair one on one fight with a DAA regardless of how many of the gadgets she brings from what she has been shown to use so far in Tsukihime.

[eddyak]

Makes me wonder about Lorelei now since she was supposed to be the biggest baddest mage ever before.

The Barthomeloi were supposed to be the DAA hunters who, realising DAA could live for millennia and they couldn't possibly match the spellcasting abilities of someone who didn't bother with handing research down to kids who had to be trained every generation, just decided they'd refine the basics until their basic Magic Missile/Fireball hit the level and damage cap.

Not necessarily the biggest hammer, but a stake in the ribs works fine.

[Tepanyakigo]

The Barthomeloi were supposed to be the DAA hunters who, realising DAA could live for millennia and they couldn't possibly match the spellcasting abilities of someone who didn't bother with handing research down to kids who had to be trained every generation, just decided they'd refine the basics until their basic Magic Missile/Fireball hit the level and damage cap.

Not necessarily the biggest hammer, but a stake in the ribs works fine.

So... in a trashy title Light Novel trend... it would be along the line "I have trained the weakest basic spell only to become the strongest vampire hunter and other mages are afraid of me now" ?

Wow, this sounds very original compared to most trashy isekai LN titles nowadays...

[Nanaya]

She had an easier time with the subsequent attacks as she didn't need to brute force it and used technique to parry.

Spoiler:

街を削り、呑み込む衝撃波。 地球の自転を部分的にたわませ、解き放つ星の息吹。 これをシエルは真っ正面から切りつけ、凌ぎきった。

[You]

In the Clock Tower, there's a young queen.
The current head of the renowned Barthomelois. Even though she hasn't arrived at magic, she has the talent to almost reach the level of a miracle with just sorcery. If it was just magical circuits, Lorelei was said to even surpass the school's headmaster.

If the headmaster does turn out to be one of Solomon's apprentices . . .

Also

Even though their genders were different, when she recognized that it was the same Dead Apostle she cornered,
"Wind...!!"
The girl and the black vampire acknowledged each other as the mightiest foe within this castle.

The girl's magical circuit howled as it spun.
The black long sword scattered clumps of malice as it was swung.
The magecraft of blade sliced a piece off the ancient castle.
The black shadow engulfed the furious wind even as it was repelled and torn.

Spoiler:

(Turbine, set)
“Circuits, connect”
Her left hand rises as high as her eyes.

The mystic energy being created in Aoko’s body looked–no, you could hear the difference.
Even Touko has never heard that jarring sound.
Aoko’s circuits are the low grade, single function ones of mediocre magi.
The amount she generates is much lower than Touko’s.
But that speed is far too abnormal.
It is clearly faster than the speed of blood flow, and,

It was one thing for it to be the sound from magecraft, but for there to be noise from simply activating the circuits– that’s unheard of even in the Association!“

I don't think the sound was metaphorical in the Lorelei vs Enhance fight.
If Lorelei's circuit speed is on the level of Redshift Aoko and she also happens to have a high circuit count, that alone makes her exceedingly strong.

[Nanaya]

If the headmaster does turn out to be one of Solomon's apprentices . . .

Also




I don't think the sound was metaphorical in the Lorelei vs Enhance fight.
If Lorelei's circuit speed is on the level of Redshift Aoko and she also happens to have a high circuit count, that alone makes her exceedingly strong.

Based, she needs to be at least that unique if she's gonna still be tangling with vampires in Tsuki. One day. We may be alive when that castlevania game gets made.

[Gehennahem]

In the TM ACE13 interview, the interviewer asks if the DAA seem a bit lacking compared to the world ending threats that comes up in FGO all the time and Nasu says something to the effect of "well I wrote TsukiR before FGO, so I only really got to that same level of scale because FGO built on TsukiR". That sure sound to me like Nasu wants the DAA to be on Beast level.

I don't think it was stated in that Interview Nasu wanted them to be Beast level(that's a HELL of a stretch considering what the Beasts have done and are capable of doing), just wanted them to be onpar with the usual levels of power we see now in FGO.
Now am I saying that Tsukihime Remake Ciel isn't Servant level? No, with all of her tools, she absolutely is... but I feel people are still stuck in the F/SN mentality as if Servants didn't level up either throughout all of these years which was the entire point.

Tsukihime didn't outrank FGO and that didn't happen at all, all Nasu did was explicitly balance the scales so that DAA's can keep up with the powercreep and not be seen as "nobodies" in comparison to FGO where there are World-Ending Threats every other day.
Not to mention there ARE levels of Servants too FYI, it's not just Servant = Grand Servant either.

EDIT: I want to further acknowledge that Nasu still added things we have seen in the original Tsukihime back into the Remake(Like Arcueid +1'ing her opponents but having issues if the opponent can basically game it like Gilgamesh can) so it's not just going "The DAA are Beast level" because that doesn't even make sense(Nvrsqr's entire thing is ultimately being a ripoff of Tiamat's Primordial Sea and it's obvious that's where he will stay for instance which was why he was removed from the Remake as he was "too important to be used as fodder")

[Kirishima]

I think he's referring to this here: https://jcrcomicarts.wordpress.com/2...ly-translated/

Yeah, FGO has a series of world-threatening enemies, so the Dead Apostle Ancestors could feel lacking if strong enough in comparison.

Nasu: FGO introduced a lot of new lore. But FGO’s scale is only that large because TsukiR was produced first and laid that groundwork..

So it's meant to say both FGO and Tsukihime have world ending threats, FGO has Beasts, Tsukihime has Ancestors. Are they 1-to-1 in terms of power? Who knows, but they are at least comparable if they're meant to be the world threatening danger in each universe (maybe 27 apostles = full lineup of beasts)

Spoiler:

The concept of Idea Blood being inherited and a Beast being able to assume a vacant spot do sound similar now that I think about it.

[Gehennahem]

I think he's referring to this here: https://jcrcomicarts.wordpress.com/2...ly-translated/



So it's meant to say both FGO and Tsukihime have world ending threats, FGO has Beasts, Tsukihime has Ancestors. Are they 1-to-1 in terms of power? Who knows, but they are at least comparable if they're meant to be the world threatening danger in each universe (maybe 27 apostles = full lineup of beasts)

Spoiler:

The concept of Idea Blood being inherited and a Beast being able to assume a vacant spot do sound similar now that I think about it.

Yeah, I think that's what he meant and I can agree with that but how I got it seemed more like he was saying DAA was on the level of the Beasts(outside of the obvious 2) which is what got me wondering if we saw the same games at all.
Them having similarities and being World Ending Threads I can agree with though.

[Nanaya]

Checking in from 2030. Bros, Nero just pulled out a buffed Tiamat and Albion from under his coat.