Badass Versus Thread

[Zork Knight]

Chaos = Chaos Tide = Grail Mud

[eddyak]

Rin basically had a mini spammable Excaliblast. Vaporisation is probably enough to kill even someone with infinite mana. Yeah, her brain is probably a weak point, but again, Gil already chopped her head off and turned her body into a pincushion.

Also, her minions are way bigger and stronger than most of what Nero's capable of using, and they're basically infinite. The only thing Nero's shown that can put up a fight is the 999th form, but even that probably wouldn't be enough when she drains all its mana and drops it into her imaginary space pocket.

[the god of world-0]

Honestly, imaginary space is bullshit.

[KiritoX]

Chaos = Chaos Tide = Grail Mud

But Dark Sakura doesn't use Grail Mud tho? ._.

EDIT: Wait, I found a mention of black mud in HF day 15, never mind.

Would Sakura really be able to drain all the magical energy from Nrvnqsr? He has a dragon in there doesn't he?Aand those generate magical energy just by breathing.

[LeadDemon]

The thing about Nrvnqsr that makes him really scary is that whatever you kill just goes back to him and then he makes a new beast out of it. If Darkura can just absorb his stuff, or if she can dump it in imaginary number space so it can't get back to him, that advantage and a lot of his potency goes out the window. It's a very big affinity thing imo.

Basically it comes down to whose Pokemon are better, but unless Nrvnqsr's are significantly able to beat hers and keep her on the backfoot to blitz her down (or if he goes final beast form and triies to gut her off the bat), I don't see it as favorable. If their Pokemon are at similar levels then her affinity advantage probably gives Sakura the edge.

[KiritoX]

Um, I see. And what about both Dark Sakura and Nrvnqsr Chaos vs Tiamat? Would they be able to beat her or something?

[Rafflesiac]

Tiamat is level 100 Sakura so I assume no

[Menwearpink]

Nero not being a ghost does mean Sakura’s affinity and advantage that kicks in against servants and ect doesn’t apply but I’d say that the grail Sakura has a bit of an advantage? Then again dragons and ect.

[CO9p5JMGv!p9]

how do sakura's minions compare with stuff like the monsters in HA?

[Deathhappens]

I'm referring to the swordsmanship performance. When Gawain fought Suzuka, she was having notable difficulty with him, but was confident in the long game, which Leo was cautious about and wanted to end things quickly. Gawain was handling everything Suzuka threw at him in their short bout.

As for Raiko, she was dominating the fight. Suzuka could only really hold her at bay with telekinesis, but then her INT NP (which she used against Gawain for an even fight) immediately changed the nature of the fight. She landed a scratch on Raiko, whom asserted it was proof that Suzuka's predictions began to surpass her own, and acknowledged that the longer the fight went, the better it would be for Suzuka. At best, Raiko had comparable performance to Gawain when both are power duelists. You might argue Gawain has a stat advantage, but that's undercut by ME, when Suzuka stated that her strength was just as insane as Caligula's. Considering Raiko has A-rank strength, and Caligula has A+, it's a very good indicator that Raiko's listed stats are her base stats, and ME improves them (kind of like Herc TBH). If anything, Raiko has a stat advantage over Gawain.

I'm afraid it was BS. ME was indicating that those that hold it are far more skilled than the other fighters in their era, hence "unparalleled". The instant we see someone not holding the skill matching performance relative to someone who doesn't, it becomes very shaky as a marker for skill.




That makes it even worse for Raiko, since Gawain was doing just as well in CQB with no compatibility advantages. That being said, it probably has more to do with damage and defense than which one will land hits in CQB.



3rd np or 2nd? Because the 2nd NP was used for the marjority of her fight with Gawain as well, and Raiko immediately resorting to nuking was the only reason why she was winning, something that Gawain did not resort to, which makes the comparison from that point forward meaningless. It also didn't definitively say that Raiko would win as Ushi. Suzuka said "even someone like me might loose." It's open ended.



The entire nature of the fight would be changed. Diarmuid would, instead of complicated traps, be contesting Saber with power and the only traps would be things like feints. The events leading up to the Bundine would probably be the same, with Saber's situation being more dire with a more powerful opponent, but then her no armor trick would actually work, and Artoria would just get a large bonus to her CQB abilities. The whole reason why Diarmuid was such a problem for Saber is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Bundine baiting was the entire reason why Saber was at a disadvantage by the end. Take that away, and it's more even.

Again I can't directly comment on the fight but if Suzuka didn't even actually swordfight Raikou why do you assume holding her own means Raikou's EAM is bullshit?

To give an example, does Archer (a third-rate Heroic Spirit, by all accounts) taking half of Herc's lives invalidate the claim of "invincibility" of his God Hand? Does the fact that Saber managed to bend Kojirou's sword make Tsubamegaeshi any less inescapable? Does Nero surviving a hit (technically several) from Li Shuwen make his "No Second Strike" less powerful?

[Deathhappens]

Ok, I just went and quickly read through that battle. I honestly have absolutely no idea what you're complaining about.

1st exchange: Raikou is clearly dominating Suzuka despite the latter's telekinesis letting her pull off sneak attacks. You even see some beautiful signs of EAM at work, such as Raikou pulling a Lancelot and grabbing one of Suzuka's swords, or her switching to bow midfight. Exchange ends when a blow Raikou asserts would have killed Suzuka is stopped because Raikou's Master called her out. Tamamo also clearly notes that Raikou is more skilled and Suzuka is holding on out of sheer perserverence.

2nd exchange: After Suzuka uses her second NP, Blessings of Wisdom, she lands a single scratch on Raikou. Raikou agrees that using that, her predictions will eventually surpass hers.

3rd exchange: Suzuka uses her 3rd Noble Phantasm, Sanzendaisensekai, and becomes completely able to see through Raikou's swordsmanship. She wins the fight instantly.
(Noting Ushi Gozen's Divinity Rank that surpasses hers might have turned the battle if used is irrelevant here).

So there you have it. Raikou's skill is first matched by a Noble Phantasm that specifically enormously boosts the user's calculation ability, then overwhelmed by the perfect clairvoyance that results from the third Noble Phantasm working with the second. I completely fail to see anywhere this fight makes it look like Raikou's skill was in any way lacking or even evenly matched with Suzuka's own skill at fighting using their weapons, and that's despite Suzuka fighting telekinetically with three swords.

[I Can't Believe It's Not A NoblePhantasm]

Ok, I just went and quickly read through that battle. I honestly have absolutely no idea what you're complaining about.

1st exchange: Raikou is clearly dominating Suzuka despite the latter's telekinesis letting her pull off sneak attacks. You even see some beautiful signs of EAM at work, such as Raikou pulling a Lancelot and grabbing one of Suzuka's swords, or her switching to bow midfight. Exchange ends when a blow Raikou asserts would have killed Suzuka is stopped because Raikou's Master called her out. Tamamo also clearly notes that Raikou is more skilled and Suzuka is holding on out of sheer perserverence.

Irrelevant for my point, which is to use the common opponent of Suzuka to compare Raikou and Gawain. Gawain VS Suzuka lasted one attack before activating her blessings of wisdom.

2nd exchange: After Suzuka uses her second NP, Blessings of Wisdom, she lands a single scratch on Raikou. Raikou agrees that using that, her predictions will eventually surpass hers.

She doesn't say eventually. She says it's begun to surpass her, as in it is >= at that moment, and the gap widens over time. Compare and contrast to Gawain, whom didn't have much difficulty in keeping up with Suzuka, putting his skill in the same tier as Raikou, which is why I brought it up.

So there you have it. Raikou's skill is first matched by a Noble Phantasm that specifically enormously boosts the user's calculation ability, then overwhelmed by the perfect clairvoyance that results from the third Noble Phantasm working with the second. I completely fail to see anywhere this fight makes it look like Raikou's skill was in any way lacking or even evenly matched with Suzuka's own skill at fighting using their weapons, and that's despite Suzuka fighting telekinetically with three swords.

The point was never that Raikou was doing poorly. She wasn't. The point was that she does not demonstrate martial skill surpassing individuals that don't have EAM like Gawain. It's safe to say now that EAM users aren't special compared to other competent fighters in the series outside of their stability. The flavor text about no one else in their era rivaling them is nonsense at this point. Anyone competent in CQB is fair game.

[eddyak]

The key phrase there is "in their era". Not every era is equal, and there's like a 99% chance the writers don't take into account fighters from a different land when they put this skill in. Not to mention heroes are all different- some fought giants, some fought dragons, some just fought people. A beat B and B beat C, therefore A is stronger than C doesn't work here.

Also, Gawain is disgustingly strong with his sun buffs up. He doesn't have to be the best fighter if he can just outstat you.

Also, arguing "well the author is wrong because I say so" is never going to turn out well for you.

[AAM1232]

I mean even looking at Gawain, he still couldn't beat Lancelot with Numeral up. That doesn't imply Lancelot is just okay in terms of combat.

[Deathhappens]

Irrelevant for my point, which is to use the common opponent of Suzuka to compare Raikou and Gawain. Gawain VS Suzuka lasted one attack before activating her blessings of wisdom.



She doesn't say eventually. She says it's begun to surpass her, as in it is >= at that moment, and the gap widens over time. Compare and contrast to Gawain, whom didn't have much difficulty in keeping up with Suzuka, putting his skill in the same tier as Raikou, which is why I brought it up.



The point was never that Raikou was doing poorly. She wasn't. The point was that she does not demonstrate martial skill surpassing individuals that don't have EAM like Gawain. It's safe to say now that EAM users aren't special compared to other competent fighters in the series outside of their stability. The flavor text about no one else in their era rivaling them is nonsense at this point. Anyone competent in CQB is fair game.

Well then your point defeats itself because you're comparing unequal things. Gawain overpowered Suzuka by virtue of his ridiculous stats, Raikou overpowered Suzuka with sheer skill (and some boost from her Mad Enhancement). You cannot compare her martial skill with Gawain's because thanks to Numeral of the Saint and the presence of Leo, Gawain could have just headbutted Suzuka to death and still won the battle.

- - - Updated - - -

tl;dr you can argue about EAM being bullshit when we actually see someone from Raikou's era match or defeat her in a contest of weaponskill, and no sooner.

[Menwearpink]

Raikou beats Suzuka because she’s a mystery monster slayer and what is Suzuka?

HMMM.

[I Can't Believe It's Not A NoblePhantasm]

Well then your point defeats itself because you're comparing unequal things. Gawain overpowered Suzuka by virtue of his ridiculous stats, Raikou overpowered Suzuka with sheer skill (and some boost from her Mad Enhancement). You cannot compare her martial skill with Gawain's because thanks to Numeral of the Saint and the presence of Leo, Gawain could have just headbutted Suzuka to death and still won the battle.



tl;dr you can argue about EAM being bullshit when we actually see someone from Raikou's era match or defeat her in a contest of weaponskill, and no sooner.

Gawain: Boasts about his sword technique. Suzuka notes his overwhelming power, and mostly notes about his speed, composure, and reaction time.

Raikou: Suzuka actually says nothing about her skill, but focuses on Raikou's power. It's other characters that note that Raikou's ridiculously skilled. It's also not "some boost" Her strength would have gone from A to A+ given she's considered equal to Caligula in strength.

If there's a difference between Raikou's stats and Gawain's, it's that she's the much bigger power duelist through her strength and mana burst, and Gawain is speedier, but even then, he's only B-rank, and there'd only be only a rank's difference if we were to downplay the parameter boost to only one rank. And yes, I can contest EAM. It'd have us believe they're some transcendent duelists that no one is close to in their era, and now that's shaky, especially since Gawain actually does have a statement that he rivals Lancelot in skill (so yes, Extra and Zero outright contradict one another when it comes to statements, and both have Nasu's influence). Now it's an outlier.

[Zork Knight]

Gawain: Boasts about his sword technique. Suzuka notes his overwhelming power, and mostly notes about his speed, composure, and reaction time.

Raikou: Suzuka actually says nothing about her skill, but focuses on Raikou's power. It's other characters that note that Raikou's ridiculously skilled. It's also not "some boost" Her strength would have gone from A to A+ given she's considered equal to Caligula in strength.

If there's a difference between Raikou's stats and Gawain's, it's that she's the much bigger power duelist through her strength and mana burst, and Gawain is speedier, but even then, he's only B-rank, and there'd only be only a rank's difference if we were to downplay the parameter boost to only one rank. And yes, I can contest EAM. It'd have us believe they're some transcendent duelists that no one is close to in their era, and now that's shaky, especially since Gawain actually does have a statement that he rivals Lancelot in skill (so yes, Extra and Zero outright contradict one another when it comes to statements, and both have Nasu's influence). Now it's an outlier.

Gawain
Naturally, an intimate friend of mine.
I am truly glad for another chance to once again fight side by side with him.... However. While that may be the case. No matter how many times we do battle, I shall certainly be the one to emerge victorious. Indeed.

I dunno, Lancelot seem's pretty confident Gawain is not his equal

[AAM1232]

- Character
One of the Knights of the Round Table. The Knight of the Lake.
With his signature weapon Arondight in hand, he is considered to be the strongest when it comes to individiual prowess.
He had fallen to madness many times due to the matters surrounding Queen Guinevere, and accordingly is quite compatible with the Berserker class.

Depiction in FGO
The type of Lancelot that is perhaps closest to how he was during his life. An ideal knight. To say that he is the strongest knight among the Round Table would be no sophistication.

And I don't think Arondight's stats doping is that much better than Numeral's boost. So I don't get where this "Lancelot isn't that skilled" is coming from.

[eddyak]

Arondight's doping is just one rank. Like going from B to A. Numeral is 3x the stats. Like going from B to B+++.