Dropping her down the underworld was not enough, because she literally rewrites the rule of the underworld, so she can do that to Surtr's texture as well. Gramps also had to give her the concept of death because she doesn't have one. Surtr cannot do that.Originally Posted by eddyak
And Nega Genesis (anime) straight up ruins all of that entirely. He's getting ultra Thanos-snapped the moment it is activated.
How different is a blazing hellscape created by Surtr from the Underworld anyway
Both are pretty lifeless aren't they
Underworld is "world of the dead, no living being is allowed" thus qualified for "a world where no living things exist" to flip Tiamat's concept against her. It also has punishment upon living beings who go there, even the gods can't go against it. It's not a texture but an actual place below the surface texture. IIRC Benienma mentioned something about AoG underworlds being tied to the back side of the planet, I think.
A fire texture is just...a texture filled with constantly burning fire. This texture is also temporary, as a new texture representing the new world (the current human world) will cover it (with Rhon and a few other towers sewing it down) and according to myth the survivors of Ragnarok will lead this new world (Lif and Lifprasir).
But Super-Surtr would leave no survivors, no? Wasn't that the reason he had to be sealed, going against the Ragnarok script?
No survivors except for him and his "waifu" Ophelia and the flame giants. Or to be more exact, he will try to recreate Goetia's barbecue feat, making small steps at a time. First he will burn the LB2, then he will use the Paper Moon to dive into the imaginary number space and escape to the blank planet outside, there he will set fire to it and make LB2's burning texture canon. He is absurd if he gets going.
If Tiamat was not protected by absolute conceptual bullshits and Thanos snap, I would give him the win easily tbh, because even Kirsh considered him to be a potential valuable card to deal with the Olympians.
Last edited by Lily Emilio; June 24th, 2020 at 01:03 PM.
Well it's not like Ritsuka and Mash had to commit suicide to let the Servants get through Tiamat's ontological immortality. All they had to do was bring her to somewhere conceptually lifeless. Like a blazing hellscape (or a frozen wasteland if he decided to use Fenrir's absolute zero wind)
Also Ophelia being a mom to fire giants is a very cute image ngl
That's not conceptually lifeless. That's just a place extremely harsh for most life to exist in. Frost giants and Fenrir himself can still live in frozen realm, Flame giants and Surtr himself can still live in fire realm. It's completely different from the underworld's "Only the dead exist here" and "even if you're alive, the ruler of this world can still treat you as being counted "already dead".
And even when it's a literal underworld where she should be subjected to its supreme Authority over the living, she was still about to make it her turf, so I don't expect burning or icy world to be spared.
Also again, you need to also give her the death concept even after all that. Surtr cannot do that.
Last edited by Lily Emilio; June 24th, 2020 at 01:22 PM.
She was claiming the Underworld with the Chaos Tide, which we know can be vaporized just like normal water. It's a matter of heat exchange.
She rewrites it with Nega Genesis (anime). Also like I said, those textures are nothing like the underworld. It is not just putting her into another world, it has to be a world where no life can exist. And Surtr's texture are not that.
And again for the 3rd time, he cannot give her death concept. Even if his texture works, he still cannot kill her.
Last edited by Lily Emilio; June 24th, 2020 at 01:44 PM.
Only an issue if the mud isn't burned up by the fire texture. She spreads her territory by spreading the mud, which probably wouldn't instantly be vaporised like Quetz's NP did, but it wouldn't be as easy as "I expel fluid and now all your base are belong to me".
Also, remember almost everything in Uruk was subordinate to her in the first place. She was able to laugh off everything the mesopotamians did to her, but then along came Lucha Libre, Gorgonzola, Flower Shop and Absolutely Haram and the pain train started.
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Still ignoring Nega Genesis I see. It is literally a RM-like Bounded Field. Even without the anime's nasty effect, it is literally her own self-expanding territory. She doesn't need mud to do the trick. She can just make a whole new world out of the thin air like that. And again for the Xth time, he will get absolutely snapped when that shit starts.
False. Being able to laugh off Mesopotamia things was BEFORE she dropped down the underworld. And Quetz, Gorgon's damage were minor despite going all out, with Gorgon dying. They could only stop her from flying up the sky. There's a reason Gramps only show up when she is already down the underworld, being shut out of her protection. Merlin was there to neutralize the mud so she cannot regenerate back all of her wounds, not damaging her. And even with all of that stuff, they were still unable to destroy her servant-level saint graph without Gil's help. The actual pain train was only possible after underworld drop AND Death concept. None of this would be possible for Surtr, for yet again the Yth time.Also, remember almost everything in Uruk was subordinate to her in the first place. She was able to laugh off everything the mesopotamians did to her, but then along came Lucha Libre, Gorgonzola, Flower Shop and Absolutely Haram and the pain train started.
Also the logic "only effective to things within your myth" would also apply to Surtr. He might be good for the Norse texture, but when the foreign kaiju comes in, that's when the pain train will start for him.
Last edited by Lily Emilio; June 24th, 2020 at 02:06 PM.
That's dangerous, sure, but so is his sword. Won't insta-pop like hers will, but it'll definitely damage her.
Yes, being able to laugh off Mesopotamian things was before she dropped into the underworld. Gorgon was already mostly dead (and mostly Ana, IIRC?), Quetz was missing half her divinity and not remotely in her own sphere of influence.False. Being able to laugh off Mesopotamia things was BEFORE she dropped down the underworld. And Quetz, Gorgon's damage were minor despite going all out, with Gorgon dying. They could only stop her from flying up the sky. There's a reason Gramps only show up when she is already down the underworld, being shut out of her protection. Merlin was there to neutralize the mud so she cannot regenerate back all of her wounds, not damaging her. And even with all of that stuff, they were still unable to destroy her servant-level saint graph without Gil's help. The actual pain train was only possible after underworld drop AND Death concept. None of this would be possible for Surtr, for yet again the Yth time.
Also the logic "only effective to things within your myth" would also apply to Surtr. He might be good for the Norse texture, but when the foreign kaiju comes in, that's when the pain train will start for him.
I agree a straight-up kill is beyond him without some nonsense like eating her like he did the doggy treat, but a win isn't impossible. Literal world burning NP, gains mana as he gets damaged, is designed to kill life, screen full of fire, et cetera. It's possible he could just vaporise her body, and then keep whatever tries to leak through burning in his new texture... Right up until his job's done, I suppose, and he goes back to sleep or poofs out of existence or whatever it is he does when he's done with Ragnarok this time.
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Ok now you're finally on the same wavelength as mine when I hypothesized the match up a few pages ago. If destroying one's saint graph counts as a win then yes it is not impossible, like Marduk. Marduk destroyed her dragon form with his axe as per the mats illustration and the scar on her dragon form, and the gods just sealed her afterwards because they could not inject some death concept onto her to permakill her. It's still going to be a very close fight and depends on how much Surtr can damage her extremely tanky saint graph before dying to the snap and her own attacks, since they are very similar in physical strength.
Last edited by Lily Emilio; June 24th, 2020 at 04:03 PM.
They have comparable physical stats, but Surtr has a Noble Phantasm whereas Tiamat has a... big scream?
And, I dunno, Surtr was sorta alive. He was Ophelia's Servant, but he also was the same Giant that had been alive in Ragnarok and spent 3000 years as the sun of Scandinavia...
Energy beams, biting, hydrogen bomb level attack that was already available to her even when sealed, 11 magic reactor cores that accelerates her circulation of magic energy to fuel her attacks, not!Rho Aias (anime). Surtr having a Noble Phantasm doesn't mean he get to hit her every time he swings it, this is not to mention he has lower AGI stat than her, chance that he'll take hits while trying to swing it. That's why to me it's a high diff fight for him even with his advantage modifiers.
You can say the same thing about the 11 Lahmus. They are new lifeform born from her, but they still get instant snapped. And him being a servant is the most important factor here, so that would not make a difference. Then if you treat him as alive, your whole burning texture theory will also fall apart, because he will be what keep her hax intact. Eresh had to use her underworld Authority to mark Mashu and Guda as "dead" to make sure the hax is broken. Surtr doesn't have that luxury.And, I dunno, Surtr was sorta alive. He was Ophelia's Servant, but he also was the same Giant that had been alive in Ragnarok and spent 3000 years as the sun of Scandinavia...
Last edited by Lily Emilio; June 24th, 2020 at 04:45 PM.
I still have no idea what's that supposed to mean.
To be fair I was much happier with the simplicity of "Man and Star Servants can't hurt me because I deny History, and they're History itself" over whatever the fuck anime Nega Genesis was supposed to represent..
The worst part about it is that Nasu was definitely involved (he also told Higashide to not let Gil called Enkidu as friend for feelz), and the definition is so vague that we can sit here to argue again and again about its scope and potency to no end.
- - - Updated - - -
Also change of topic.
Surtr vs LB5. How would Kirshtaria utilize Surtr to deal with the Olympians if he got a chance.
He'd have to bring him in Olympus, else he'll just get shot down by Artemis in Atlantis. You'll probably lose a good chunk of the city as well if that happens.
I thought Zeus is already hax there?
Spoiler:
Wandering on internet
I mean he's closer to the gods anyway and Zeus has trouble with controlling AOE without killing the Olympians. Bit better than just getting sniped by Artemis with no response.
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