Badass Versus Thread

[Zurvan]

Partially why people want to see a proper Herk, Archer Herk never tho

And if durable armor were good enough it'd have been noted while listing ways to avoid getting heartstabbed

[AAM1232]

"He's not a pear to Artoria, Herc, Karna, Arjuna, or Achilles. "

Aint that a damn lie

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Nah not really. He is mainly a guy that focuses on close combat and his NPs are mainly defensive or supplementary (chariots have a 0 kill count in this franchise to date).

I have a hard time calling someone "OP" if they dont have an ability that can 100% seal the deal and win the fight

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Ok, so if you want to use 3rd party cross-fight performance to assess skill, lets do that.

Mordy > Chiron

Sieg > Mordy that got slashed across the chest twice and almost lost her sword in the first seconds of that fight and needed a CS goost

Chiron = Achilles, give or take

So Achilles / Chiron < Mordy < Sieg < Siegfried = Karna = Cu, give or take

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Also, you know, having an armour that can tank a blast that killed Herk 7 times (slight oversimplification)

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Some of the quotes i have read make them sound like BS though.

To the point hat i am pretty sure either Arjuna or Karna's chariots or whatever should have killed everything, including the planet, their kingdoms and themselves just due to the basic scientific consequences of those things existing.

TLDR: sounds a lot like metaphors of power rather than actual power

Right, but Cu's GB which is pretty well countered here is the deal breaker now? Also what a ridiculous scaling chain that ignores Apocrypha stating that Achilles was a match for Karna, ignores Chiron's experience with Achilles, and assumes that Cu is equal to Karna. I mean if you wanted to talk about fanfiction, there are better places than this.

[Zurvan]

I mean if you wanna play that game we can put Cu on the bottom of that list by looking at his fights against Saber

[SpoonyViking]

To be fair, it was a fight when he was being held back by Kirei, and he had no way of dealing with an invisible blade.
A lot of Servants would have the same problem, though.

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Arguably, he could still win the fight had it continued, thanks to the wound inflicted by Gáe Bolg, but again - held back by Kirei.

[Iceblade44]

The same with Herakles, really.

Yeah, though from this conversation. I feel like Cu has been dealt with this the most poorly lol.

Like ignoring Nasuverse and just looking at Cu from Irl. The thing with him is that he was created a deliberate expy to Achilles, but better and more badass. I'm just grinning through out this on how Nasu really only has showed a fragment of how he is in his myths. Ha

[Zurvan]

To be fair, it was a fight when he was being held back by Kirei, and he had no way of dealing with an invisible blade.
A lot of Servants would have the same problem, though.

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Arguably, he could still win the fight had it continued, thanks to the wound inflicted by Gáe Bolg, but again - held back by Kirei.

The church fight tho

[SpoonyViking]

Church fight... The one in the Fate route? That was barely a fight, and Saber had a buttload of circumstance bonuses from terrain.

[Tobias]

wasn’t saber herself (as she was for most of the route) still weakened by the wound from gae bolg? Just saying lancer wasn’t the only only one with a circumstance induced limitation

[Zurvan]

Church fight... The one in the Fate route? That was barely a fight

that's the point I'm making yes, if that's what constitutes a good argument these days we can clearly see that Saber > Cu
and we know that Saber > Mordy too, so clearly Cu < Mordy

see how dumb this kind of logic is

[AAM1232]

I'm still waiting on how a guy with NP counters and better stats loses to Cu in a way that doesn't involve fanfiction worthy of My Immortal.

[Blastedspider]

Achilles dies to Gae Bolg as he has no way to counter it.

[SpoonyViking]

that's the point I'm making yes, if that's what constitutes a good argument these days we can clearly see that Saber > Cu
and we know that Saber > Mordy too, so clearly Cu < Mordy

see how dumb this kind of logic is

Oh, yeah, definitely!

[AAM1232]

Achilles dies to Gae Bolg as he has no way to counter it.

Apparently Kosmos doesn't count as a magic shield good enough to stop GB. You know, one of the few explicit stuff said to block it.

Apart from that, he's fast enough to prevent Cu from getting it off anyway.

[Zurvan]

that had to be bait

[Blastedspider]

Apparently Kosmos doesn't count as a magic shield good enough to stop GB. You know, one of the few explicit stuff said to block it.

I don't think they were ever compared in Apocrypha-related stuff. Was it in F/GO? Or you extrapolating from it being similar to Rho Aius?
From what I can tell Kosmos doesn't have any special characteristics which can interfere with probability-reversal.

Apart from that, he's fast enough to prevent Cu from getting it off anyway.

There is no evidence that he is particularly faster than any other Servant with AGI ranked A when it comes to melee. As for mobility advantage, Cu Chulainn probably can negate it with Ath nGabla as Achilles' Magic Resistance is only C-ranked.

[Wandering Swordwoman]

Apparently Kosmos doesn't count as a magic shield good enough to stop GB. You know, one of the few explicit stuff said to block it.

Apart from that, he's fast enough to prevent Cu from getting it off anyway.

Yeaaaaa I laugh may ass off with people keep bringing up an NP that the bearer NEVER USED beside saving protag, and it's not even him who activated it
So no counter to GB

[AAM1232]

I don't think they were ever compared in Apocrypha-related stuff. Was it in F/GO? Or you extrapolating from it being similar to Rho Aius?
From what I can tell Kosmos doesn't have any special characteristics which can interfere with probability-reversal.


There is no evidence that he is particularly faster than any other Servant with AGI ranked A when it comes to melee. As for mobility advantage, Cu Chulainn probably can negate it with Ath nGabla as Achilles' Magic Resistance is only C-ranked.

It's in HF when talking about attacks that can't be dodged. GB is brought up as an example, and one way to beat it as suggested was a shield with enough magical energy to overpower the lance's own. I'm not seeing where Kosmos does not meet those conditions.

Wow. I mean ignoring NPs once again for fanfic isn't exactly great debating.

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Yeaaaaa I laugh may ass off with people keep bringing up an NP that the bearer NEVER USED beside saving protag, and it's not even him who activated it
So no counter to GB

A NP he's given away often doesn't mean he won't use it in a hypothetical scenario. Unlike GB which has a remarkably bad success rate of actually working. Should we now assume Cu might end up failing to kill Achilles with GB?

[Ordep]

Avenger Gorgon vs Berserker Heracles

[SpoonyViking]

Monster vs. monster slayer. I'd bet on Herakles.

[BlackWatchar]

It's in HF when talking about attacks that can't be dodged. GB is brought up as an example, and one way to beat it as suggested was a shield with enough magical energy to overpower the lance's own. I'm not seeing where Kosmos does not meet those conditions.

Wow. I mean ignoring NPs once again for fanfic isn't exactly great debating.

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A NP he's given away often doesn't mean he won't use it in a hypothetical scenario. Unlike GB which has a remarkably bad success rate of actually working. Should we now assume Cu might end up failing to kill Achilles with GB?

Do you think that Achilles will pull his big round divine shield that can block anti-fortress and anti-country np agaisnt an np that classified as anti-unit? Especially if he don't know Cu true name in the first place?