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Thread: Badass Versus Thread

  1. #126521
    Taiga's knight Tobias's Avatar
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    Avalon very specifically does heal saber faster you know. Or at least the amount of energy she funnels through it increases healing whereas it had a flat level of preloaded mana it used when it was in shirou and kiritsugu.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bird of Hermes View Post
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  2. #126522
    I told 'em, I told 'em. Bugrit! eddyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menwearpink View Post
    Medea has a great land, but she's hardly at her peak in F/SN.

    Considering she didn't get to use her item creation at all, had to compensate for a lack of proper master, and such... Yeah, the temple is good but it was more something to help her out with certain disadvantages that already existed tbh.

    Also its funny to see actual scath wanking here, tbh.
    She's got a city to take mana from, a temple, and a natural anti-Servant field. I'd say there aren't too many places in the world with such a good collection of advantages for her, unless she ends up in Greece with a castle or something. And the only thing I've said about scath is what she's literally done in her introduction.

    Quote Originally Posted by fire_mountain_30 View Post
    1- Kingu was the one with the grail if i recall correctly, not Gorgon. she got 2 of Tiamat's authorities but i believe that was all we know she got as a buff

    2- it counters Godhand because it doesn't actually kill the target (unless they shatter), therefore, it keeps the revival from triggering. i think i once read a wiki bottom source clarifying it but alas i cant seem to find it now. however, that is the exact reason why Merlin was afraid, despite saying "yeah i am immortal and i can respawn somewhere else if i get killed" just a few seconds prior

    3- "it isnt even an NP" https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Caress_of_the_Medusa

    4- Cybelle was used on Shirou in HA. she used it on Perseus before he reflected it back at her.

    5- i dont recall Quetz cracking the horn. all i recall is her damaging Tiamat's eye. not to mention that the Gorgon that did all of that was already severely weakened
    1: She had the Grail, then Kingu had it. Somehow.
    2: Transmuting an immortal is a good way to stop them, but again, MR, and I very much doubt it overcomes a curse of resurrection cast by Zeus himself.
    3: Fair enough. I still don't know why regular Medusa didn't get the eyes as an NP.
    4: Ah.
    5: Half-divinity Quetz cracks horn, Gorgon-Ana combination should've been more complete than her previous version, they finish the job. Could be an animu-only thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by fire_mountain_30 View Post
    1- Saber was powering Avalon while it was inside Shirou. unless you want to argue that it grants greater healing to Saber than to Shirou or Kiritsugu
    Yes, I'm saying Saber gets way better regen out of Avalon than other people carrying her artifact. Again, in life she never shed a single drop of blood after the moment she picked it up, and it's not as if Kiritsugu or Shirou could deploy the fairyland portion.
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  3. #126523
    Quote Originally Posted by eddyak View Post
    Yes, I'm saying Saber gets way better regen out of Avalon than other people carrying her artifact.

    You got some of that proof bay bay?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by eddyak View Post
    5: Half-divinity Quetz cracks horn, Gorgon-Ana combination should've been more complete than her previous version, they finish the job. Could be an animu-only thing.
    Roman said that Tiamat had 0 visible damage after Quetz suicide attack. I went back and checked. Unless they do something like "oh, she seemed fine at first but actually..." in a later piece of dialogue then yeah, she did nothing

  4. #126524
    I told 'em, I told 'em. Bugrit! eddyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fire_mountain_30 View Post
    You got some of that proof bay bay?
    Again, in life she never shed a single drop of blood after the moment she picked it up
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  5. #126525
    I think that that is just expressing what it said in the myths that may not be canon to the nasuverse or if that if flowery language. We know for a fact that the TM canon of a lot of characters definitely differs from the lore that they state themselves in-store, such as the true story behind Tiamat and her banishment and even stuff like Astolfo not truly going to the moon

  6. #126526
    I told 'em, I told 'em. Bugrit! eddyak's Avatar
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    You could go with that, or you could go off what the VN actually said.
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  7. #126527
    You can't trust TM lore tidbits as easily as that. To this day I am still completely undecided on whether Babylonia Merlin was summoned, if he Independentely manifested or if he showed up in the flesh. All 3 of those statements came from his own lips

  8. #126528
    love warrior <3 world-0 the god of world-0's Avatar
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    Well, then that can be used to invalidate basically every argument on this thread, including yours. If the VN says and there is no proof against it, there is no reason to believe it to be false.


    here is a list of my servant sheets(new and improved format for my servant sheets)

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    Fate / White Memoria

  9. #126529
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six SpoonyViking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eddyak View Post
    We've seen Medea at her probably-peak, with ridiculous amounts of mana and a temple. She'd be spanked by a regular Artoria if Shirou wasn't around to hold her back.
    She was spanked by regular Artoria even *with* Shirou holding her back - her only offensive ability is magic, and M. Res. A completely cancels it.
    *Maybe* that humongous spell she uses against the shadow wolves in Hollow Ataraxia could break through M. Res. A, but not only is that only a *maybe* (though it has some precedent with Semiramis' spell-bolts from the Hanging Gardens), it takes a long time to cast - it's why she needed both Sasaki and Kuzuki to hold off the horde while she gathered the energy.

    Actually, why are we assuming all Herc gets is one or two extra things?
    Because the prompt was "What if the F/SN Servants 'had access to all the skills and NPs that we know they also have in other classes' ", not all the stuff they have from the legends; meaning we can't really give Herk anything a hypothetical Rider!Herk or Lancer!Herk would have, for example - as much as the thought of Herakles "riding" around on Helios' cup* and shooting people with homing laser dragons tickles me!

    * Yes, this is a shout-out to Seika.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zurvan View Post
    Unless Cu summons the Valkyries now I'm not sold on the Odin runes cancelling NPs, otherwise AVALON, GODHAND, Herk with Sanity and skills, MR with excellent stats
    I think he's talking about Caster!Cú Chulainn's second NP, Matrix Wotan, which has gone unused in GO so far. It's basically a super AoE attack (Anti-Army or Anti-Fortress, I forget which) which also wipes out buffs, imposes debuffs, and *temporarily* seals off continuously-active Noble Phantasms (so things like God Hand, presumably).
    The thing is, it's also apparently under some kind of limiter? I remember the mats seemed to imply he needed Odin's blessing or somesuch to use it.
    My fanfics:
    The Gift (F/SN): The last duel between Cú Chulainn and Scáthach.
    Passion Acknowledged (F/SN): Shinji X Shirou lemon
    He Was a Good King (F/SN): Was Beowulf a good king?
    A Fairy Tale of Love and Death (F/SN): A meeting between Scáthach and King Hassan.
    Palingenetic Descension (Tsukihime): The origin of the Tohno family's hybrid nature.

  10. #126530
    Taiga's knight Tobias's Avatar
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    Even ignoring eddy’s quote for a moment, in the VN it took over night for the sheathe time restore shirou from crippling injuries. After learning the sheathe was inside shirou, saber once increased this rate of healing by actively funneling extra mana to him. Finally when using it herself against Gilgamesh she was restored from being absolutely crippled to able to continue fighting in about a minute, and it was implied she was not giving it as much mana as she could have been because she was holding back for a pair of excalliblasts.

    sooo...yeah, it heals saber considerably quicker, yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bird of Hermes View Post
    The moment the opportunity arises for a pun, the one known as 'Taiga's Knight' will be there to deliver whether you like it or not.

  11. #126531
    死徒 Dead Apostle
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    Quote Originally Posted by eddyak View Post
    She's got a city to take mana from, a temple, and a natural anti-Servant field. I'd say there aren't too many places in the world with such a good collection of advantages for her, unless she ends up in Greece with a castle or something. And the only thing I've said about scath is what she's literally done in her introduction.


    1: She had the Grail, then Kingu had it. Somehow.
    2: Transmuting an immortal is a good way to stop them, but again, MR, and I very much doubt it overcomes a curse of resurrection cast by Zeus himself.
    3: Fair enough. I still don't know why regular Medusa didn't get the eyes as an NP.
    4: Ah.
    5: Half-divinity Quetz cracks horn, Gorgon-Ana combination should've been more complete than her previous version, they finish the job. Could be an animu-only thing.


    Yes, I'm saying Saber gets way better regen out of Avalon than other people carrying her artifact. Again, in life she never shed a single drop of blood after the moment she picked it up, and it's not as if Kiritsugu or Shirou could deploy the fairyland portion.

    Gorgon never had the grail. Her situation was similar to Cu Alter and Medb's, with Kingu being Medb. He held the grail as his magic reactor, but the mana and wish was used to link Gorgon's senses to Tiamat. This resulted in a two-fold buff: Gorgon's divinity was restored to the level of a real goddess like Kingu said all 3 of the alliance were. On top of that, she could now could use Tiamat's Potnia Theron authority, and without breaking down as Heroic spirit and servant saint graphs aren't able to handle those.

    Additionally, Babylonia is really weird with how it doesn't coherently explain a few things. In the anime, Half-divinity Quetzalcoatl mixes both of her noble phantasms to break Tiamat's shields and crack her horn. Gorgon appears and breaks it. The game was a lot different. Quetzalcoatl uses just Xiuhcoatl and it does no damage to Tiamat, as Roman literally said "no damage to Tiamat's main body". Gorgon returned, but she did so in her lesser form with her divinity (link to Tiamat) gone. She alone cracks and breaks the horn.

  12. #126532
    Quote Originally Posted by the god of world-0 View Post
    Well, then that can be used to invalidate basically every argument on this thread, including yours. If the VN says and there is no proof against it, there is no reason to believe it to be false.

    Ok then

    After she got Avalon and fought Gil, she tried to avoid his weapons landing on her vitals

    Then she gets knocked out

    Then she admits that even with the sheath it is taking a decent time for her to heal

    Doesn't seem that the healing is that OP to me

  13. #126533
    Taiga's knight Tobias's Avatar
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    Again, as I mentioned, the rate of healing is controlled by saber’s magical energy flow, which was limited during fate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bird of Hermes View Post
    The moment the opportunity arises for a pun, the one known as 'Taiga's Knight' will be there to deliver whether you like it or not.

  14. #126534
    On the Medea side of things, most of her losses came from being weakened, caught by surprise, convenient anti-spatial attacks like caladbolg or being dumb enough to not be flying when faced with a specific enemy.

    If she was flying at all times, I am sure that she would fare much better. Not only that, but she can make a much stronger version of her regular magical blasts and that one can destroy a city, so I can see it being rank EX. I think she could probably make a similarly boosted version of her spatial freezing field if she tried and had the time to spare

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    Again, as I mentioned, the rate of healing is controlled by saber’s magical energy flow, which was limited during fate.

    Isn't that woman a living mana reactor though? And doesn't she say that she only needs a small amount of energy to bring out her full strength because external mana is just the initial "spark" that she needs to fully power her "engine"?

  15. #126535
    Taiga's knight Tobias's Avatar
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    No. Even after restarting the reactor in the fate route, shirou and saber slept together (or cuddled in the admittedly seriously adorable RN remake scene) one last time to increase her magical energy supply. She also notes that her supply of ready magical energy increases when she retakes Avalon. (This is never fully explained but going back to what I said a minute ago it’s implied she jacked the residual magical energy she had put inside it and was only feeding it a minimum level of energy so she could perform her plan which required then three excalliblasts)

    At any rate even with the reactor she was never able to get to full in fate thanks to the difficult fights with Heracles and repeated face offs with Gil before the final night.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bird of Hermes View Post
    The moment the opportunity arises for a pun, the one known as 'Taiga's Knight' will be there to deliver whether you like it or not.

  16. #126536
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six SpoonyViking's Avatar
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    Flying usually is a huge tactical advantage, but it's not insurmountable, especially against people who can run *up* the side of a building as if they were a speedster in a super-hero comic and leap over tall buildings, or have ranged attacks of their own; and even flying, she still can't harm anyone with M. Res. A unless (*possibly*) she uses the Hollow Ataraxia spell. She'd have better luck relying on her pseudo-spatial transportation, but that's limited to within her territory, and it's not invincible either - she can be defeated before she can even use it, for instance.

    She's a very good mage in a system which actively punishes mages. It's no wonder most Casters we've seen after her had some means to bypass Magic Resistance - if not with their spells, at least with their Noble Phantasms.

    - - - Updated - - -

    There's also the issue that Medea, as far as we know, doesn't qualify for any class other than Caster, so it's not as if she'd receive any new toys other than Pain Breaker and the Colchis dragon - which are extremely useful for what they are, but aren't really on the level of Nine Lives, Avalon et al.
    My fanfics:
    The Gift (F/SN): The last duel between Cú Chulainn and Scáthach.
    Passion Acknowledged (F/SN): Shinji X Shirou lemon
    He Was a Good King (F/SN): Was Beowulf a good king?
    A Fairy Tale of Love and Death (F/SN): A meeting between Scáthach and King Hassan.
    Palingenetic Descension (Tsukihime): The origin of the Tohno family's hybrid nature.

  17. #126537
    死徒 Dead Apostle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    No. Even after restarting the reactor in the fate route, shirou and saber slept together (or cuddled in the admittedly seriously adorable RN remake scene) one last time to increase her magical energy supply. She also notes that her supply of ready magical energy increases when she retakes Avalon. (This is never fully explained but going back to what I said a minute ago it’s implied she jacked the residual magical energy she had put inside it and was only feeding it a minimum level of energy so she could perform her plan which required then three excalliblasts)

    At any rate even with the reactor she was never able to get to full in fate thanks to the difficult fights with Heracles and repeated face offs with Gil before the final night.
    Fate Saber against Gilgamesh is able to fire multiple Excaliblasts.
    Rin Saber says using just one takes up most of her magic power.

    Was she really that limited?

  18. #126538
    Taiga's knight Tobias's Avatar
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    by her own words? Yes. by her own actions? yes. using noble phantasms is hard, even if you have a super mana regeneration rate.

    and that kind of goes back to the point about avalon. throughout the VN, we see very clearly and explicitly that its healing ability is effected by the level of magical energy running through it. 12 hours for normal heal, a couple for a rushed heal on shirou, and then a minute or two for Saber all dependent on magical energy supply. Saber was readying for several uses of excalibur and from texts may have actually been trying to funnel magical energy from avalon to Excalibur, at the least she wasnt topping it off.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bird of Hermes View Post
    The moment the opportunity arises for a pun, the one known as 'Taiga's Knight' will be there to deliver whether you like it or not.

  19. #126539
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six SpoonyViking's Avatar
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    She also needed to take back all the energy she normally used to create her armour to funnel into her last Excalislash against Gilgamesh.
    My fanfics:
    The Gift (F/SN): The last duel between Cú Chulainn and Scáthach.
    Passion Acknowledged (F/SN): Shinji X Shirou lemon
    He Was a Good King (F/SN): Was Beowulf a good king?
    A Fairy Tale of Love and Death (F/SN): A meeting between Scáthach and King Hassan.
    Palingenetic Descension (Tsukihime): The origin of the Tohno family's hybrid nature.

  20. #126540
    Taiga's knight Tobias's Avatar
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    yeah. its implied activating avalon's perfect guard doesnt have a high mana cost but even so she was skimping everywhere she could because all the phantasms she had to use to out manuever gil. actually if I had to guess, once she healed enough to get her feet underneath her, I think she actually sucked the dregs of mana back out of avalon for the second excalliblast and then drained her armor for the third.

    thats just fanon on my part though, dont take it to seriously
    Quote Originally Posted by Bird of Hermes View Post
    The moment the opportunity arises for a pun, the one known as 'Taiga's Knight' will be there to deliver whether you like it or not.

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