Wasn't the A+ anti army Balmung able to equal the A+ anti country Brahmastra Kundala? I'd imagine it would be something similar with a theoretical A++ Anti Army NP and Excalibur.Originally Posted by Menwearpink
Wasn't the A+ anti army Balmung able to equal the A+ anti country Brahmastra Kundala? I'd imagine it would be something similar with a theoretical A++ Anti Army NP and Excalibur.
Anti-Country is a matter of being wide spread and long ranged.
We even have a direct comparison with Stella "being like Anti-fortress with its power" and "being like anti-country with its range."
If anything balmung, being the wide spread worst for beam vs beam, anti-army, canceling out Kundala suggests that Kundala is just as spread out if not more if you ask me. I don't think BK would fair well against Blood Arthur or Caladbolg and co.
Actually, I found this to be massively wrong because many people took what Da Vinci said at face value but not the actual discussion that occurs later on with Holmes and her a few sections later.
The ultimate point of the topic isn't that no one can destroy Planets, hell, Plural never pops up once and the discussion is 100% on Earth and Holmes states this paraphrasing it:
"Beings that are born on the Planet cannot hope to ever destroy it"
The entire discussion was never on Servants cannot destroy Planets, the discussion was that Servants cannot destroy EARTH because they are born from Earth. Hell, Arcueid at full power wouldn't be able to do so either because she is also born from the Planet...
But it wouldn't extend to Aliens and Lifeforms completely out of Earth's purview like Aliens and the Machine Gods who are also Aliens, they are not born from the Earth and that's why Earth's Defense Provisions don't work on them.
Here's the video here and the entire segment(I have it to where it should play at the part it starts at) but the part I'm talking about is at 3:22:15
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To be fair, Stella is a Conceptual NP that "ceases conflict" and technically can stop things well beyond it's paygrade like Rhongomyniad and Dendera Light Bulb.
And even more technically, the Anti-Designations are weird since Excalibur is Anti-Fortress and can do so much more damage despite it's designation and you have the same with many other Noble Phantasms.
Like Asterios' Noble Phantasm has a max of only 14 people can be trapped in it... but we know that's nonsense and a half considering Lostbelt 1 and hell, the many times he even has monsters in his Labryinth outside of himself.
Those are even more meme worthy than the stats issue.
Honestly I feel like by that logic Balmung would be anti country too if it was about as spread out as BK. Even so, if Anti-army/Anti-fortress/Anti-country designations were just about the range a certain amount of power is spread over, it would still mean the overall amount of power is about the same regardless of whether its spread out like anti-country or concentrated like anti-fortress.
Really? You can see the ancestors portalling out to another dimension, in another time, in space, and then taking out a temple defended by 72 demon gods that infinitely regenerate and toss out NP-tier lasers at the drop of a hat?
And yes, a lot of people are stronger than Servants- that's the point. Servants are specifically those people who overcame threats bigger than them, they killed dragons, killed vampires, spanked gods. They're the protagonists.
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The issue is that we don't know what most of the DAA are capable of. It's completely impossible to say whether CM is more powerful than Goetia or not. Nasu called Arcueid the most powerful being in the Type Moon universe and CM and Altrouge should at the very least be near that. Caubac also creates a universe and Kiara (in a more powerful state than as a Beast) doesn't literally use the planet as a sex toy, it's just a metaphor in her np animation.
Last edited by Hyug; August 20th, 2022 at 07:52 AM.
Just to remind you all, but there is a middle ground between "Karna beats the Crimson Moon" and "Vlov beats Goetia".
I don't think the DAA are Beast level, just the stronger ones (CM, Altrouge, PM) probably are comparable or more powerful than them and the weaker ones maybe on the level of divine spirits (Fenrir authority is needed to create absolute zero).
Who cannot beat ORT even back then when the series was still limited to just Tsukihime, FSN and KnK (ORT's material profile). Did not make sense back then, and doesn't make sense now when you see alien entities like Chaos atomizing the planet into spiritrons, physically and conceptually, who might as well be several times bigger than a planet in of itself due to being made from the core of a literal star, that even Goetia's AAS - boasting sufficient firepower to pierce through the Earth, has no hope of destroying.
Arc is the strongest entity on Earth, as that is what she is created to be, not in the entire universe. And even then she doesn't have the amount of haxes that are available to some of the other new entities being added to the series. When you departure from the planet and reach alien threats, she falls behind.
Also Caubac created a MODEL of a universe, and as a conceptual universe it was conceptually expanding like the speed of a real universe but it isn't an actual universe by cosmology definition. That is basically similar to how the infant Beast Kama creating one as her own domain, and her clones as the celestial bodies.
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Fenrir isn't a divine spirit.
IIRC that statement could also be interpreted in Japanese as "one of the strongest", not the literal strongest.
I don't recall much about Fenrir's authority but Vlov's idea blood only approaches absolute zero when contained to a very small area (about 40m). Fenrir's is probably stronger if the ranges of other authorities are anything to go by.
Last edited by Clown; August 20th, 2022 at 08:40 AM.
Arc not being able to beat ORT doesn't prove she is weaker than him. Chaos from what we see only targets the outer layer of the planet like Goetia (Europa mentions that he takes ressources from the surface), and it's possible all of that happens in the lostbelt texture given his appearance depended on his connection with Zeus. The size of Chaos and him being a star also doesn't matter in a universe where the laws of physics are contextual, it is like saying Wodime can move stars freely so Wodime > Chaos. Finally, it is never stated anywhere that AAS can't destroy Chaos, only that even if Chaldea had equivalent energy to AAS, they wouldn't be able to destroy Chaos and that has more to do with the tools Chaldea had not being adequate to reach Chaos than anything else.
Last edited by Hyug; August 20th, 2022 at 09:43 AM.
I'm pretty sure Nasu knows what he is saying. Probably 30% Arc could not beat ORT. But Archetype Earth? I'm not sure, especially when she is stated to be above Arc's light body.
We also have some numerical statements that could hint at the overall energy values of the celestial egg, so we might be able to see how it compares to stuff like Goetia, Zeus or Sefar, but I'm not an astrophysicist so I'm not entirely sure.
My guess is it's quite a bit beyond planet level though and, due to the way the concentration of magical energy is described, it seems like it cannot get any denser than it is, it's stated to be at the absolute point. It's pretty much described as having the energy at the birth of the universe in terms of overall energy values.
It always seemed weird to me people couldn't wrap their head around the idea Nasuverse Earth is not limited to being planet-surface level or planet level, when it's clearly a magical planet in nature. Are human-sized characters in the Nasuverse limited to being street-level or wall-level? Clearly not the case.
The priest was waiting for the arrival of the princess, who was only an enemy of all of them.
For the priest, the golden princess was the one and only main heroine.
Everyone else was unworthy of his respect, no matter how strong they were.
Tsukihime 2 Prelude III
Uh no? If Chaos was only aiming for "layers of the Planet", no one would have a problem with him just destroying the Texture for Spiritrons but they explicitly state that he was going to aim for the Planet ENTIRELY, which means it was definitely aiming for more than just a single Layer/Texture and ultimately render the Planet uninhabitable.
Secondly, uh... did you miss that Chaos is basically Lostbelt Zeus but even MORE amped up who explicitly has the True Authority versions of what the Greek Gods have? Machine God Ares gave Sefar the toughest fight she ever had to the point she took his sword as a trophy... and Chaos literally obliterated it in one hit with Proto-Helios' Authority to the point no one but him and Quirinus could even see it coming. That's a HELL of alot more than Wodime could ever do considering Machine God Ares is also Mars, who in Roman Mythology is basically on the level of Zeus.
And finally, no, I've seen someone try this and that's 100% not what Holmes was talking about.
Holmes very, very much puts out that reaching Chaos is a problem in and of itself due to multiple factors but he outright states that even if they had the power of Goetia's AAS(and I feel people miss that it's not actually talking about a singular ring, it's talking about the entire Conglomerate, every last billions of them which is equal to a fully matured Tree of Emptiness which has literal Galaxies in them) wouldn't be able to hurt Chaos because Chaos is just that powerful as basically THE Primordial God of the Greek Gods(which actually fits in Greek Myth).
From your video,
Europa: So Chaos means to absorb not just Olympus but every resource on this planet's surface
Shrine voice: will then revert the planet's surface to its primordial state
Holmes: It sounds as though Chaos intends to scoop out thirty sevent percent of the Earth's surface
Europa: Their only intention is to make off with this planet's surface, Lostbelt and all...
Not really, if he affects the surface layer of the bleached earth that could still make the planet uninhabitable. In fact it makes perfect sense with how the destruction is described "a huge gaping hole in the Earth" (where the Greek lostbelt is located?).
I fail to see how any of this is relevant. I don't believe that Zeus can actually destroy the whole planet either. Just the one in his texture.Secondly, uh... did you miss that Chaos is basically Lostbelt Zeus but even MORE amped up who explicitly has the True Authority versions of what the Greek Gods have? Machine God Ares gave Sefar the toughest fight she ever had to the point she took his sword as a trophy... and Chaos literally obliterated it in one hit with Proto-Helios' Authority to the point no one but him and Quirinus could even see it coming. That's a HELL of alot more than Wodime could ever do considering Machine God Ares is also Mars, who in Roman Mythology is basically on the level of Zeus
No they never say anything like that, this is just your interpretation. All he says is that even if Chaldea had that they wouldn't be able to destroy Chaos. In fact, the fact that earlier he says that the reason why space faring servants wouldn't be enough is because of time makes your interpretation really weird. Like if you rewatch the whole scene it's pretty clear Holmes is never talking about Chaos hypothetical durability.And finally, no, I've seen someone try this and that's 100% not what Holmes was talking about.
Holmes very, very much puts out that reaching Chaos is a problem in and of itself due to multiple factors but he outright states that even if they had the power of Goetia's AAS(and I feel people miss that it's not actually talking about a singular ring, it's talking about the entire Conglomerate, every last billions of them which is equal to a fully matured Tree of Emptiness which has literal Galaxies in them) wouldn't be able to hurt Chaos because Chaos is just that powerful as basically THE Primordial God of the Greek Gods(which actually fits in Greek Myth).
The original statement did not specify which Arc tho. ORT, like many other aliens, doesn't play by Earth's rules in the first place. And since it is an Ultimate One (Extreme Independent Species, w/e that means), it should have something that cancels out or balance out Arc's power, considering the statement that if the battlefield is Earth (you know, the home turf of Arc), it has zero weaknesses. Its ability to morph the Earth's surface just by being there could also mess with Arc's connection to the planet for backup as well, since going by her FGO profile she is so deeply linked to the Earth that changes to it will drastically affect her performance. The classic way of dealing with her is cutting her off from the planet's backup, which can be done by isolating her in an alien environment or remove her from the land anyways.
I'm sure when Nasu said those past statements, he did not expect his expanded universe would reach this current scale at all. If you want to disregard a bunch of his past statements in favor of new ones like you've been saying, then I don't see a reason to stick to this one either, especially when Primate Murder became the mascot of FGO and ORT who was hyped up to be something beyond everything else back then now has a dangerously high chance of jobbing to a literal clown.
Like, as much as I am Arc fan, and I do believe she is easily planetary level, I don't think she is the strongest in the entire Nasuverse with all the expansion packs involving extra cracked entities not just from this universe but another universes. The only thing that might make Arc being strongest a possibility, is that my cracked theory about the Earth being the special-of-special planet in Nasuverse and used to be the center of the universe turns out to be true lol, which would make her effectively Type-Universe. But let's not go wild into that direction yet.
He is "a secret boss in a video game". Have you ever fought a secret boss in a JRPG? The secret bosses are usually those who are way stronger than even the final bosses, who won't do anything unless you actively seek to fight them, and if you show up without a maxed out cracked party, you're fucked. And even if you are cracked, you still have very low chance of succeed. The logic of "Amaterasu losing to Sefar doesn't mean she is weaker becuz she has higher powerlevel" don't apply here, because you don't leave out other abilities of characters. And again, the statement is old, back when Nasu didn't even think of Fate Extra or w/e, the dude revised past things. You can't just cherrypick things you want to discard and things you want to keep becuz it fits your narrative, disregarding everything else.
lol no. Chaos is not an entity belong to the LB alone. It always exists in the universe. In all timelines including PHH, it exists as the one who sent the Olympians to this universe, nothing happens to it and it had no reason to interfere until LB5. There is nothing conceptual about it whatsoever. It is a spacetime fortress megastructure using the core of a star as its core. It is what it is. Alien technology unrelated to the perception of the people of Earth, something "far beyond anything of our planet" (我らが世界(ほし)のすべてを遙かに超える、ソラの神！) according to Quirinus. If all it does is affecting the LB, there would be no need of trying to seal its entrance to prevent it from swallowing 37% of the planet's mass. Do you have any idea how much 37% of the Earth's mass is. It doesn't matter if it is taken from the surface or dig down further to reach 37%, it would leave the planet crippled to the core.The size of Chaos and him being a star also doesn't matter in a universe where the laws of physics are contextual
What do you think AAS do for its attack? The "concentration of all of the light bands energy" wouldn't be enough to destroy Chaos. The concentration of the energy from those light bands IS what AAS is. That's like saying the energy beam created by Excalibur is not the energy beam created by Excalibur. Absolutely retarded.Finally, it is never stated anywhere that AAS can't destroy Chaos, only that even if Chaldea had equivalent energy to AAS, they wouldn't be able to destroy Chaos and that has more to do with the tools Chaldea had not being adequate to reach Chaos than anything else.
That's more vague than Arcueid being called the strongest.
In Extra Arcueid is also called the strongest outside the Moon Cell. And maybe ORT has abilities that makes Arcueid unable to beat him or maybe they are so close in terms of power that neither can win against the other...The logic of "Amaterasu losing to Sefar doesn't mean she is weaker becuz she has higher powerlevel" don't apply here, because you don't leave out other abilities of characters. And again, the statement is old, back when Nasu didn't even think of Fate Extra or w/e, the dude revised past things. You can't just cherrypick things you want to discard and things you want to keep becuz it fits your narrative, disregarding everything else.
I never said Chaos was an entity belonging to the lb alone?lol no. Chaos is not an entity belong to the LB alone. It always exists in the universe. In all timelines including PHH, it exists as the one who sent the Olympians to this universe, nothing happens to it and it had no reason to interfere until LB5. There is nothing conceptual about it whatsoever. It is a spacetime fortress megastructure using the core of a star as its core. It is what it is.
That is a vague statement that could refer to the entities in the lostbelt's planet currently.Alien technology unrelated to the perception of the people of Earth, something "far beyond anything of our planet" (我らが世界(ほし)のすべてを遙かに超える、ソラの神！) according to Quirinus.
Because it would destroy the space of the lostbelt in the bleached Earth? It is described as "a huge gaping hole in the Earth". And it's not 37% of the planet's mass.If all it does is affecting the LB, there would be no need of trying to seal its entrance to prevent it from swallowing 37% of the planet's mass.
You are wrong, it's not 37% of the planet's mass but 37% of the planet's surface at least in the english version.Do you have any idea how much 37% of the Earth's mass is. It doesn't matter if it is taken from the surface or dig down further to reach 37%, it would leave the planet crippled to the core.
Europa: So Chaos means to absorb not just Olympus but every resource on this planet's surface
Shrine voice: will then revert the planet's surface to its primordial state
Holmes: It sounds as though Chaos intends to scoop out thirty sevent percent of the Earth's surface
Europa: Their only intention is to make off with this planet's surface, Lostbelt and all...
That's not the issue. Reread the scene, the problem is not that they don't have enough energy to destroy Chaos but that they don't have the means to reach him and affect him in enough time. Having the energy of 1000000000000 AAS wouldn't solve that...What do you think AAS do for its attack? The "concentration of all of the light bands energy" wouldn't be enough to destroy Chaos. The concentration of the energy from those light bands IS what AAS is. That's like saying the energy beam created by Excalibur is not the energy beam created by Excalibur. Absolutely retarded.
Last edited by Hyug; August 20th, 2022 at 12:55 PM.
It's a mystery to me how someone can look at a space fortress-ship-entity the size of a star and think "Arcueid could probably beat that".
1. What do you think reverting the Planet to it's Primordial State even means? It doesn't mean removing the layers, the means removing not only the top side of the Planet but also the Reverse Side, because do people miss that the Earth is the way it is with it's layers due to Tiamat's Primordial Sea? It wasn't made that way.
2. Chaos literally exists in PHH, he exists in the Lostbelt era, how do you think the Machine Gods made it into the Universe without Chaos? This is the equivalent of saying there is no Multiverse in the Nasuverse.
3. Lostbelt Zeus. Isn't. From. The. Planet! Lostbelt Artemis can destroy the Planet full tilt as she isn't her Divine Spirit self but the literal alien Machine God Artemis. Zeus weakest Lightning Bolts literally equals Lostbelt Artemis' main cannon. What the hell you mean "Only destroy a single layer"?! I swear people literally listen to just Da Vinci in Shinjuku and miss that Holmes and Da Vinci literally clarifies it later which is why Aliens are such a threat to the Planet as it the Planet's protection is just for those who are born from it.
4. How is it interpretation when you ignore the very essence of how Goetia's plan works?
It's literally not just one Light Band, we literally see 7 different ones in each Singularity alone and Goetia literally erased Human History for 1 Light Band and did it every single second going back to atleast 2000-3000 years.
There's a reason why Light Bands is plural and what do you mean "Hypothetical Durability"? We literally can tell how ridiculously powerful something is because of everyone else saying so. Like it's suddenly now "hypothetical" despite Chaldeas knowing that Lostbelt Artemis can delete something with the equivalent of cracking the Planet into two? Really?
Last edited by Gehennahem; August 20th, 2022 at 01:11 PM.
Statements like those usually refer to normal Arc. It takes some unknown factor for her to be in the AE state, which is actually her strongest form as the soul and planet's brain.
We have statements saying normal Arc receiving back up from the planet isn't an expression of almightiness, it's really a restriction. Would AE with her full authority have that same restriction? It really seems like she doesn't.
TA are stated to be the planet's immune system or white blood cells, while Arc goes a step beyond that, being the planet's alter-ego and brain body.
ORT doesn't have to play by her rules, but she doesn't have to play by ORT's rules either. Her being the Ultimate One of earth makes me doubt the idea that she can be "cut off" from earth so easily by an Ultimate One from another planet and then left completely helpless, especially when she also has the ability to terraform her surroundings based on Fate/Extra and the stuff we see in Remake. That would suggest she is inferior and has less authority than other Ultimate Ones, which there isn't any indication of based on everything we know so far, and if anything statements like being the planet's soul, brain, Original One, "that which makes the celestial" don't give me the impression she is inferior or of lesser quality.
Past statement? He said Arc is the strongest in an interview that's probably not even a year old:Spoiler:
I'm only of the opinion not to take every old statement at face value when they contradict new content, especially when Remake created a new continuity with a set of rules that weren't present before.
Earth might be more powerful than other planets, being able to repel Sefar when countless other unnamed planets failed. It's always a common trope in fiction where earth is powerful or special. You see this in DC, Marvel all the time.
The priest was waiting for the arrival of the princess, who was only an enemy of all of them.
For the priest, the golden princess was the one and only main heroine.
Everyone else was unworthy of his respect, no matter how strong they were.
Tsukihime 2 Prelude III
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