Badass Versus Thread

[Lily Emilio]

So Grand Lancer Roma is only as good as vanilla Archer Gilgamesh "in his prime"???

Can't you read? I said "to a certain extent''. What part of ''certain extent" that you're unable to comprehend? Idk why you keep intentionally misreading shits for the lulz, but if that's your kink then sure.

Archer Gil in Babylonia was not vanilla from the throne in the first place. He retrieved his prime body that he left in the underworld and manifested as a servant.

Oh and EE is definitely stronger than PAAA, afterall it is the strongest and oldest NP mankind ever obtained.

And the anti-Tiamat squad was not just Gil. There's Ishtar with her venus ball, Gorgon, Quetz, Eresh, Gramps, Jaguar, Merlin, Mashu. They can pump out more than enough damage to pummel Zeus, and even disrupt his divine vein if Gramps can do the same thing he did on Tiamat with disabling her flight.

[Ronove]

So Grand Lancer Roma is only as good as vanilla Archer Gilgamesh "in his prime"???

Gilgamesh can blow apart Tiamat's body, so long as she isn't protected by any conceptual defense buffs, and had more firepower than everyone else in the anti-Tiamat party combined. He's also the one that killed Gugalanna that CCC remarked stronger than the Mesopotamian gods controlling it. Romulus has a lot going for him, like a beefed-up authority version of imperial privilege and huge support skills that can buff his allies by 300%. Additionally as a divine spirit, his mana capacities should well surpass Gilgamesh's. For overwhelming power, Gilgamesh can match him. Ea is the strongest noble phantasm obtained by humanity. Romulus-Quirinus is humanity.

[Zork Knight]

Can't you read? I said "to a certain extent''. What part of ''certain extent" that you're unable to comprehend? Idk why you keep intentionally misreading shits for the lulz, but if that's your kink then sure.

Archer Gil in Babylonia was not vanilla from the throne in the first place. He retrieved his prime body that he left in the underworld and manifested as a servant.

Oh and EE is definitely stronger than PAAA, afterall it is the strongest and oldest NP mankind ever obtained.

And the anti-Tiamat squad was not just Gil. There's Ishtar with her venus ball, Gorgon, Quetz, Eresh, Gramps, Jaguar, Merlin, Mashu. They can pump out more than enough damage to pummel Zeus, and even disrupt his divine vein if Gramps can do the same thing he did on Tiamat with disabling her flight.

Gil should still have the Saint Graph of an Archer, which should be jack shit compared to a Grand Saint Graph as seen with King Hassan pulling all sorts of insane feats in Camelot. Equating Gil to Grand Roma, even if to some nebulous "certain extent", just because they both wear ridiculous golden armor with crossed arms isn't the most sound logic.

And it isn't about Per Aspera Ad Astra vs. Enuma Elish either. Their applications were completely different: Enuma Elish was the final blow after every one of Tiamat's bullshit safeguards was disabled, while PAAA was supporting us throughout the battle until Black Barrel finished the deal.

[Lily Emilio]

Gil should still have the Saint Graph of an Archer, which should be jack shit compared to a Grand Saint Graph as seen with King Hassan pulling all sorts of insane feats in Camelot. Equating Gil to Grand Roma, even if to some nebulous "certain extent", just because they both wear ridiculous golden armor with crossed arms isn't the most sound logic.

Again with the failure of comprehension, stop making a fool out of yourself. Roma is outright stated to be equivalent to Gilgamesh not because of the armors, so idk wtf you're babbling about. It is because Roma was a demigod who became godly, yet chose to side with humanity and helped humanity move on from the age of gods, carrying the power of the masses just like Gil who is a demigod that chose to side with humanity with a conceptual vault hosting everything mankind created and the strongest NP they obtained, and in this regard Gil actually carries more of mankind's power and achievements than Roma, his versatility in what he can pull out is something Roma doesn't come close. PAAA is a nation building Authority just like Ea, so Roma's NP even referenced Ea in this part, because he is basically Rome's Gilgamesh. His design is homage to Gil is because of said equivalence, not because that they have similar design so they are equivalence, like wtf were you reading? You wanked Tesla before, thinking he would be a better replacement for Roma, then now you suddenly want to wank Roma because you want to wank Zeus. Make up your fucking mind, buddy.

Also again, Gil was extra buffed, he was not only in his home turf, in his own era but also has the extremely high quality of True Ether of said era. He can't reach as high as a Grand saint graph, but saying that he only performs just like, say, FSN Gil, is downright ridiculous.

And it isn't about Per Aspera Ad Astra vs. Enuma Elish either.

It has everything to do with PAAA vs EE. Because of the very fact that Zeus has no conceptual bullshits to deal with EE, he would be incinerated on the spot when Gil pulls it out, especially with the extremely high quality of mana in the LB that was said to be comparable to back in Mesopotamia.

[Ronove]

Tiamat without any conceptual buffs is still extremely durable. In stage two, Quetzalcoatl and Gorgon could only take off a horn despite going over the limit with their noble phantasms. That's a big deal when Quetzalcoatl simulates the dino-killer meteor. None of Tiamat's conceptual defenses proc against them, and she's physically a lot more powerful/durable in her dragon form.

[Lily Emilio]

Yes. And in dragon form, even when she was already downgraded to Servant level, she was still durable enough to climb a whooping 1700 meters (and we knew how fucking slow she was in climbing) to the surface before Gil shows up, under constant barrages of attacks from the squad, without any sort of healing from the Chaos Tide. Zeus simply doesn't have that sort of durability.

[Zork Knight]

Again with the failure of comprehension, stop making a fool out of yourself. Roma is outright stated to be equivalent to Gilgamesh not because of the armors, so idk wtf you're babbling about. It is because Roma was a demigod who became godly, yet chose to side with humanity and helped humanity move on from the age of gods, carrying the power of the masses just like Gil who is a demigod that chose to side with humanity with a conceptual vault hosting everything mankind created and the strongest NP they obtained, and in this regard Gil actually carries more of mankind's power and achievements than Roma, his versatility in what he can pull out is something Roma doesn't come close. PAAA is a nation building Authority just like Ea, so Roma's NP even referenced Ea in this part, because he is basically Rome's Gilgamesh. His design is homage to Gil is because of said equivalence, not because that they have similar design so they are equivalence, like wtf were you reading? You wanked Tesla before, thinking he would be a better replacement for Roma, then now you suddenly want to wank Roma because you want to wank Zeus. Make up your fucking mind, buddy.

I never wanked Tesla or "dewanked" Roma, my wish was purely out of a narrative preference, not powerlevel bullshit.

Yeah, Quirinus gets thematically compared to Gilgamesh. Doesn't mean they scale to one another, specially not when one is in a Grand Saint Graph and the other in a (jacked-up, I suppose) non-Grand Saint Graph.

It has everything to do with PAAA vs EE. Because of the very fact that Zeus has no conceptual bullshits to deal with EE, he would be incinerated on the spot when Gil pulls it out, especially with the extremely high quality of mana in the LB that was said to be comparable to back in Mesopotamia.

You'd think if Zeus was so entirely defenseless Quirinus could've just PAAA'd him into nothing, but we still had to use Ares to juggle between his support adds and Mash had to go full defensive with Aegis buff to prevent his bolts from just instakilling everyone in the meantime. You claim Demeter is tankier than him, but he has the exact same skill as her, Authority of the Earth A++, as well as his own personal Conceptual Defense Deployment (Anemos) skill. He took a barrage of Musashi's NP, Caenis' Tsunami NP, PAAA, and then was finally felled by Black Barrel.

[Lily Emilio]

I never wanked Tesla or "dewanked" Roma, my wish was purely out of a narrative preference, not powerlevel bullshit.

Except that you even wanted Edison in there for the lulz. But sure, w/e you say.

Yeah, Quirinus gets thematically compared to Gilgamesh. Doesn't mean they scale to one another, specially not when one is in a Grand Saint Graph and the other in a (jacked-up, I suppose) non-Grand Saint Graph.

And that's the meaning of "to a certain extent". Just because his base don't measure up to a Grand doesn't mean his NP is any less effective, especially in the AoG enviroment. How many times do I need to repeat this shit till you get it.

You'd think if Zeus was so entirely defenseless Quirinus could've just PAAA'd him into nothing, but we still had to use Ares to juggle between his support adds and Mash had to go full defensive with Aegis buff to prevent his bolts from just instakilling everyone in the meantime.

Who said Zeus was entirely defenseless? How did "not having conceptual bullshits like Tiamat" turns into "he is entirely defenseless"? hello? You just love to either misread or twist people's words. How can you have proper arguments when you constantly misreading shits from not just replies but the story itself?

Roma's blessing of the supreme god literally removed the Ruler class advantage and Ares was there to smack Zeus to switch to his other 2 parts. You destroy the 2 parts to remove his barriers to do more damage. You can remove his defenses as you systematically fuck him up, unlike with Tiamat when you only have one timeframe to do the job, the condition that was so specific that you can't even replicate anywhere else without the proper components. None of this applies to Zeus, you fuck his parts up, you fuck him up. And Aegis is not as strong as Galahad's shield, let me tell you that.

You claim Demeter is tankier than him, but he has the exact same skill as her, Authority of the Earth A++, as well as his own personal Conceptual Defense Deployment (Anemos) skill. He took a barrage of Musashi's NP, Caenis' Tsunami NP, PAAA, and then was finally felled by Black Barrel.

He doesn't have Demeter's Earth Divine Core, which made up the near invincible outer shell of hers. It required a super cannon beam created from all nanomachines of the fallen gods side AND fueled by 7 heroic spirit's energy just to get rid of the outer shell. Her pseudo-Immortality and regeneration was also cancelled by Caenis using Poseidon's power due to him being the same type of ship as hers. Zeus inherits her functions, but not her innate parts of the ship that she was built as.

The conceptual defense shit is a defensive system set up from his 2 parts mentioned above, and it doesn't just have Anemos, it has 2 other variations to boost other card resistance (and this is from Gaia part, Uranus part also has another buff which grants 1 turn invul). It is protection from mechanical means, so blow the 2 parts up with damage and he's stripped from it, unlike the ridiculous bullshit of Tiamat. TFW you don't even know wtf you're trying say is about.

And barrage of Musashi NPs? Since when did random sword slashes on the screen are called NP spams? And again, when Mashu booted up Black Barrel, his lifespan was already dropping like hell to 1000 and keep going down, he was already at death's door. She had to shoot it to end the fight quick because he was trying to attack Europa.

[Zork Knight]

Except that you even wanted Edison in there for the lulz. But sure, w/e you say.

I unironically like Edison, yes.

Who said Zeus was entirely defenseless? How did "not having conceptual bullshits like Tiamat" turns into "he is entirely defenseless"? hello? You just love to either misread or twist people's words. How can you have proper arguments when you constantly misreading shits from not just replies but the story itself?

You straight up said Gil could just whip out E.E. and eliminate him on the spot, that sounds pretty defenseless to me, which doesn't fit considering he already had gotten PAAA'd at the end of the fight, after getting his defenses disabled presumably, and was still going to smite Europa for being a ho before Mash Black Barrel'd his face.

And barrage of Musashi NPs? Since when did random sword slashes on the screen are called NP spams? And again, when Mashu booted up Black Barrel, his lifespan was already dropping like hell to 1000 and keep going down, he was already at death's door. She had to shoot it to end the fight quick because he was trying to attack Europa.

The Barrage is [Musashi's NP followed by Tsunami NP followed by PAAA], finally being finished with Black Barrel.

[Lily Emilio]

You straight up said Gil could just whip out E.E. and eliminate him on the spot

I did, but I never said Gil can just go in there and solo the fight, like do you understand my point yet or you're still misreading shits? It's the entire Babylonia team, dude. Taking out the Gaia and Uranus parts is very easy because all they do is buff Zeus' main part and the two themselves don't have any special defenses. You let the gang blast those 2 parts wide open (which they can, their firepower total are more than enough compare to Musashi, Caenis and Ares). Then you let Gil do his job. That's the entire fucking point. Removing Zeus' defense are much easier than dealing with Tiamat's bullshit, and she has the ridiculous sturdy body to couple with that, unlike Zeus whose main defenses were from machine functions. He has the damage, he has the shields, but his bare body doesn't compare to even Surtr in durability.

[CO9p5JMGv!p9]

if gil can just solve mecha battleship robot god problems like that why doesn't ritsuka just summon him whenever possible
dont think that counts as ludonarrative dissonance but all these servants canonically being in chaldea/suitcase yet going unused does get a bit dumb sometimes

[Ronove]

if gil can just solve mecha battleship robot god problems like that why doesn't ritsuka just summon him whenever possible
dont think that counts as ludonarrative dissonance but all these servants canonically being in chaldea/suitcase yet going unused does get a bit dumb sometimes

Babylonia Gilgamesh is nothing like Regular Archer Gilgamesh. His abilities rise to the level he was in life due to being summoned in his homeland, in his era, and an age filled with true ether. Grand saint graphs for the overly powerful heroes restore their original power as a servant, instead of giving them new buffs.

They are that which loves people as people, sometimes tearing the world apart, sometimes opening the way for civilization.
If we were to liken the romantic dream contained in their arms to a lance, their lance is excessively large and excessively sharp.
They are far too much for a regular Saint Graph. They can only truly arrive in a Crowned Saint Graph.The one of
Grand Lancer

Popping Gil up in Olympus isn't going to do anything. And to begin with, it was never possible to summon a servant in Lostbelt 5 because leylines were destroyed by Odysseus. Also have no idea why the alternative so far has been to overgeneralize posts. He explicitly said

I never said Gil can just go in there and solo the fight, like do you understand my point yet or you're still misreading shits? It's the entire Babylonia team, dude. Taking out the Gaia and Uranus parts is very easy because all they do is buff Zeus' main part and the two themselves don't have any special defenses. You let the gang blast those 2 parts wide open (which they can, their firepower total are more than enough compare to Musashi, Caenis and Ares). Then you let Gil do his job.

Nobody is going to sit here and act like Gilgamesh can 1 v 1 Zeus and walk out the winner.

[Byegod]

Babylonia Gilgamesh is nothing like Regular Archer Gilgamesh. His abilities rise to the level he was in life due to being summoned in his homeland, in his era, and an age filled with true ether. Grand saint graphs for the overly powerful heroes restore their original power as a servant, instead of giving them new buffs.

So he dies of overwork /s

[Menwearpink]

if gil can just solve mecha battleship robot god problems like that why doesn't ritsuka just summon him whenever possible
dont think that counts as ludonarrative dissonance but all these servants canonically being in chaldea/suitcase yet going unused does get a bit dumb sometimes

Probably because daga kotowaru.

gil doesn’t want to go all out because agency stuff+ shitposting + ect probably.

Even in Babylon since it was living Gil he didn’t have the super ridiculous Gate of Babylon with all human wisdom and legends either. Just all the junk he collected which is still great but not the super wank Gil that arrived with CCC

[Nalo]

I did, but I never said Gil can just go in there and solo the fight, like do you understand my point yet or you're still misreading shits? It's the entire Babylonia team, dude. Taking out the Gaia and Uranus parts is very easy because all they do is buff Zeus' main part and the two themselves don't have any special defenses. You let the gang blast those 2 parts wide open (which they can, their firepower total are more than enough compare to Musashi, Caenis and Ares). Then you let Gil do his job. That's the entire fucking point. Removing Zeus' defense are much easier than dealing with Tiamat's bullshit, and she has the ridiculous sturdy body to couple with that, unlike Zeus whose main defenses were from machine functions. He has the damage, he has the shields, but his bare body doesn't compare to even Surtr in durability.

Are you high or something? Zeus is the supreme god that has the same presence and standing as Vairocana, according to Musashi, and at that moment he was not even in his 35% of power. That alone already puts him in leagues above Tiamat. More than that he destroyed Sefar, without sustaining any damage at all, same Sefar who has multidimensional defences and could've destroyed the Earth and Moon Cell, that generates 8D barrier around it's core (not to mention that Velber Ark also can generate Moon Cell lvl barriers, meanwhile Tiamat are only 4D pocket at best lmao), but failed to even scratch Zeus in his "Omnipotent" state. Lorewise without Quirinus, who wielding power in the same realm as Zeus, we won't even able to scratch him. The hell Tiamat and her durability you even talking about?

[Byegod]

Probably because daga kotowaru.

gil doesn’t want to go all out because agency stuff+ shitposting + ect probably.

Even in Babylon since it was living Gil he didn’t have the super ridiculous Gate of Babylon with all human wisdom and legends either. Just all the junk he collected which is still great but not the super wank Gil that arrived with CCC

Didnt babylonia allegedly have super magitech as mentioned in CCC, and all we see are NP ballista's and few other things...

[Ronove]

So he dies of overwork /s

The most dignified death he's had so far.

Are you high or something? Zeus is the supreme god that has the same presence and standing as Vairocana, according to Musashi, and at that moment he was not even in his 35% of power. That alone already puts him in leagues above Tiamat.

X being equal to Y, doesn't mean much against Z. I would also not consider Musashi an authority on Vairocana's abilities, come to think of it.

More than that he destroyed Sefar

Congratulations. So did Excalibur.

without sustaining any damage at all, same Sefar who has multidimensional defences and could've destroyed the Earth and Moon Cell, that generates 8D barrier around it's core (not to mention that Velber Ark also can generate Moon Cell lvl barriers, meanwhile Tiamat are only 4D pocket at best lmao),

None of this actually means anything. Sefar can be destroyed just fine by conventional brute force. In fact, that's the best way the materials say to handle her. Its greatest ability is absorbing concepts and intelligence, something that didn't apply to divine constructs and the war god that later became Mars/Ares. Zeus combined with all the ships to kill Sefar. Sefar at an unknown stage of power. None of this has anything to do with Tiamat, and it has not so much to do with LB5 Zeus either, because he already separated from the ships. What he did was keep their authority.

Lorewise without Quirinus, who wielding power in the same realm as Zeus?

Quirinus is one grand servant, with a weaker noble phantasm than Ea. You needed several grands and equivalents to fight Tiamat, and a boatload of circumstantial advantages.

Seven grands are required to repel a beast in general, without any conceptual advantage.

- - - Updated - - -

Didnt babylonia allegedly have super magitech as mentioned in CCC, and all we see are NP ballista's and few other things...

CCC mentioned that whatever hi-tech equipment was made by the Babylonians would get confiscated by Gil and stored in his treasury. Which sort of makes sense, because Gil was able to imitate Chaldea's holographic communications. So the materials and capacity must have existed in Uruk.

[Byegod]

The most dignified death he's had so far.



X being equal to Y, doesn't mean much against Z. I would also not consider Musashi an authority on Vairocana's abilities, come to think of it.


Congratulations. So did Excalibur.


None of this actually means anything. Sefar can be destroyed just fine by conventional brute force. In fact, that's the best way the materials say to handle her. Its greatest ability is absorbing concepts and intelligence, something that didn't apply to divine constructs and the war god that later became Mars/Ares. Zeus combined with all the ships to kill Sefar. Sefar at an unknown stage of power. None of this has anything to do with Tiamat, and it has not so much to do with LB5 Zeus either, because he already separated from the ships. What he did was keep their authority.


Quirinus is one grand servant, with a weaker noble phantasm than Ea. You needed several grands and equivalents to fight Tiamat, and a boatload of circumstantial advantages.

Seven grands are required to repel a beast in general, without any conceptual advantage.

- - - Updated - - -


CCC mentioned that whatever hi-tech equipment was made by the Babylonians would get confiscated by Gil and stored in his treasury. Which sort of makes sense, because Gil was able to imitate Chaldea's holographic communications. So the materials and capacity must have existed in Uruk.

I mean they say they have all the same desires as modern day and list like multiple vehicles and such, so presumably weapons, feels weird we only see huts, stonework and very little magitech...

[Nalo]

X being equal to Y, doesn't mean much against Z. I would also not consider Musashi an authority on Vairocana's abilities, come to think of it.

It does, cause deification of the sun and gods of cosmic proportions are far stronger than earth gods which is Tiamat. Musashi statement also makes sense, cause Zeus is capable of shattering the universe with his thunder and defeating Sefar (feat that not even Amaterasu with other gods are capable of)

Congratulations. So did Excalibur.

But not whole pantheons of gods and Moon Cell with its near omnipotent capabilities

None of this actually means anything. Sefar can be destroyed just fine by conventional brute force. In fact, that's the best way the materials say to handle her. Its greatest ability is absorbing concepts and intelligence, something that didn't apply to divine constructs and the war god that later became Mars/Ares. Zeus combined with all the ships to kill Sefar. Sefar at an unknown stage of power. None of this has anything to do with Tiamat, and it has not so much to do with LB5 Zeus either, because he already separated from the ships. What he did was keep their authority.

Sefar has multidimensional barriers, Tiamat doesn't. That means everything and if you don't understand the differenence in their durability, it's not my problem. Also Ares/Mars embodied concept of conflict, according to Titan Altera

Quirinus is one grand servant, with a weaker noble phantasm than Ea. You needed several grands and equivalents to fight Tiamat, and a boatload of circumstantial advantages.

Quirinus is not just one grand servant, he is supreme god. He needed grand container in order of proper manifistation of his power:

"An ordinary Saint Graph couldn’t possibly suffice,
and only with a Saint Graph of the Crown Station itself can he be truly called"

[Ronove]

It does, cause deification of sun and gods of cosmic proportions are far stronger than earth gods which is Tiamat.

Yeah this is not remotely how it works. Best example? Quetzalcoatl is a goddess of the sun. Ishtar is a goddess of Venus. We know how both fared against Tiamat in her second form. Additionally, Tiamat's strength isn't from being a goddess, it's from being a beast.

Musashi statement also makes sense, cause Zeus is capable of shattering the universe

So can Kama, and she's weaker than true beasts like Goetia and Tiamat.

with his thunder and deafiting Sefar (feat that not even Amaterasu with other gods are capable of)

Sefar defeated the gods because they completely mismanaged an unprecedented threat. Sefar absorbs concepts. Gods are dominantly concepts. All they did was keep feeding her power. The first person to be able to challenge was the war god, because divine constructs and abilities that do not use intelligence, are her weakness. Zeus would have absorbed Ares. All he needed to do was strike her down with brute force. This is not a case of X > Y > Z. What makes Sefar most dangerous is horrific compatibility to the concepts (gods) of Earth + Lack of knowledge. Lostbelt 5 was a timeline where Zeus got wise, didn't wait for any deliberations from the gods, assimilated them by force, and killed Sefar before she became too strong. In that vein, Vasavi Shatki as shown in Extella can kill Sefar.

But not whole pantheons of gods

See the above

and Moon Cell with its near omnipotent capabilities

The moon cell, as shown in every single installment of Fate Extra, could not be further from perfect. It's full of flaws. This is why it needs administrators (and foolishly picked Mathman of all people). But that's just the problem. Moon Cell is a machine and one that is constantly learning. It cannot protect itself efficiently so it acts by using proxies. The regalia were created to have someone access the authority of the moon, and is the whole purpose behind the Extra grail wars. Whenever a threat surfaces, it summons the top servants.

Sefar has multidimensional barriers

It's literally said if you just punch Sefar it's going to take damage if you hit hard enough.

"Multi-dimensional" is also pretty meaningless fluff if you can't quantify each barrier.

Tiamat doesn't.

Yeah. She only lacks a concept of death and naturally walks through noble phantasms of chief gods and even stronger foes without using her own full power.

Also Ares/Mars embodied concept of conflict, according to Titan Altera

Yes? The point is that he is combat. Straight forward power using his divine construct. No technique or conceptual ability. This is what got him farther than even the rest of the gods in his pantheon. Mars is the only one who could put up a fight.

Quirinus is not just one grand servant, he is supreme god. He needed grand container in case of proper manifistation of his power:
"An ordinary Saint Graph couldn’t possibly suffice,
and only with a Saint Graph of the Crown Station itself can he be truly called"

A supreme god is a demiurge. One of the highest existence in their pantheon. Zeus (panhistory and lostbelt) is a supreme god. Odin is a supreme god. Quirinus is a supreme god. Shiva is a supreme god. Anu is a supreme god. Quetzalcoatl is a supreme god, and that didn't work out so well.

That very quote is telling in of itself. A grand saint graph is powerful enough to house Quirinus' full strength.