Badass Versus Thread

[Blastedspider]

Archer can fight DAA too per that old Q&A (and that one from CM3, I think).

[Petrikow]

Archer can fight DAA too per that old Q&A, I think?

You appear to be under the impression that Nasu didn't completely super-inflate the powerlevels of Tsukihime in the remake.

[Blastedspider]

You appear to be under the impression that Nasu didn't completely super-inflate the powerlevels of Tsukihime in the remake.

It's hard to estimate dut to a lack of a case-to-case examples. The newer iteration is more show don't tell but its not like old ones weren't ridiculous too.

[Clown]

He did inflate them, but only so they match up to the crazy shit a normal servant can do these days. The closest thing we have to directly compare Tsukihime stats to Fate stats is Arc's cameo in Fate/Extra, where she doesn't have backup from Earth or marble phantasm due to her master being incompetent. And while base Arc without either of those can beat Ciel pretty handily (again, barring trump cards like Calvaria), she lost to the Extra trio without their noble phantasms.

[Petrikow]

It's hard to estimate dut to a lack of a case-to-case examples. The newer iteration is more show don't tell but its not like old ones weren't ridiculous too.

Spoiler:

The direct Fate/Tsukihime comparison from post-remake is that Jester compares Ishtar going full god-mode to DAA

[Clown]

Spoiler:

The direct Fate/Tsukihime comparison from post-remake is that Jester compares Ishtar going full god-mode to DAA

Spoiler:

Personally I wouldn't take these "*enter anything here* is on the level of true magic" hype comparisons too literally as measures of power. Just because they're similar doesn't necessarily mean they are equivalent.

[Petrikow]

Yes, ignoring things for your own convenience is a great way of having your way when arguing.

[OnesFleetingGlory]

They did illustrate the danger caused by such beings is similar to a city-wide natural disaster.

[Clown]

Yes, ignoring things for your own convenience is a great way of having your way when arguing.

I'm not ignoring things for my own convenience. I'm just separating hype statements that don't really mean anything from what characters have been actually shown to be able to do. Otherwise if you don't you get shit like masterless EMIYA at 1/10th of his full strength being physically as strong as Berserker.

[Petrikow]

I'm not ignoring things for my own convenience. I'm just separating hype statements that don't really mean anything from what characters have been actually shown to be able to do. Otherwise if you don't you get shit like masterless EMIYA at 1/10th of his full strength being physically as strong as Berserker.

Spoiler:

And everything Vlov/Ciel/Arc have been shown to be able to do is far beyond anything Archer has showed off. I only pulled out the F/SF comparison because BlastedSpider started pulling out old Q&A that doesn't matter anymore. Ciel is possibly the strongest Mage on the entire planet, possesses weapon made out of DAAs, the weakest of which can destroy cities just by existing, and has the Seventh Scripture which can inflict damage on full-power Arcueid. Not only that, she hasn't even shown us its actual potential yet.

I'm not overestimating, you're underestimating. There's no ignoring that she's been buffed across the board in every single imaginable way. Her magical energy amount alone is considered the greatest on the entire planet. He's clearly set her up to be closer to an actual rival to Arc (though obviously nobody can actually win against Arc since she's supposed to basically be the strongest being on the planet).

[Nanaya]

You appear to be under the impression that Nasu didn't completely super-inflate the powerlevels of Tsukihime in the remake.

Are DAA even supposed to be compared to servants? Didn't he say in response to a question about DAA possibly being seen as weak compared to world threats that the modern story scale is only what it is because of TsukiRE? They are the 'Villains'/'Antagonists' after all. And isn't Arc supposed to just be the strongest? Anyway to add to Ciel Wank.

RE

She probably deserves credit for blocking casually 'serious' Red Arc's city shredding attacks when she starts partially deflecting the earths rotation. Her new ability to reduce spell casting to the utmost limit through IB seems worth mentioning too.

[Blastedspider]

Spoiler:

The direct Fate/Tsukihime comparison from post-remake is that Jester compares Ishtar going full god-mode to DAA

"That's just like, his opinion, man" aside (it's not like every claim like that is correct in-universe), DAAs are are a broad category which includes or used to include creatures like Primate Murder, ORT and Crimson Moon (and we still don't know what exactly is The Dark Six). In absense of more specific evidence its hard to say how strong the "average" specimen is supposed to be.

What I could argue is that Ciel herself didn't change much. As far as I can tell the newer and improved model has (presumably) better training from Be'Ze and acess to better gear/spells (Idea Bloods) but her "specs" are more or less the same (DA-level body + 5000 Magic Circuits).

[Reign]

Makes me wonder about Lorelei now since she was supposed to be the biggest baddest mage ever before.

[Kirishima]

There's so much copium and denial about updated Tsukihime powerlevels here, when before the game even came out nasu was saying he wanted to update powerlevels so Tsukihime characters were comparable to Fate in terms of power. It's very obvious what the intention is here.

[Petrikow]

Are DAA even supposed to be compared to servants? Didn't he say in response to a question about DAA possibly being seen as weak compared to world threats that the modern story scale is only what it is because of TsukiRE? They are the 'Villains'/'Antagonists' after all. And isn't Arc supposed to just be the strongest? Anyway to add to Ciel Wank.

RE

She probably deserves credit for blocking casually 'serious' Red Arc's city shredding attacks when she starts partially deflecting the earths rotation. Her new ability to reduce spell casting to the utmost limit through IB seems worth mentioning too.

In the TM ACE13 interview, the interviewer asks if the DAA seem a bit lacking compared to the world ending threats that comes up in FGO all the time and Nasu says something to the effect of "well I wrote TsukiR before FGO, so I only really got to that same level of scale because FGO built on TsukiR". That sure sound to me like Nasu wants the DAA to be on Beast level.

[Nanaya]

In the TM ACE13 interview, the interviewer asks if the DAA seem a bit lacking compared to the world ending threats that comes up in FGO all the time and Nasu says something to the effect of "well I wrote TsukiR before FGO, so I only really got to that same level of scale because FGO built on TsukiR". That sure sound to me like Nasu wants the DAA to be on Beast level.

Thought so. Thank you CM.

Spoiler:

三流の死徒であれ原理を持つ以上は星を打倒しうる、か。

Let me eat.

[Clown]

Spoiler:

And everything Vlov/Ciel/Arc have been shown to be able to do is far beyond anything Archer has showed off. I only pulled out the F/SF comparison because BlastedSpider started pulling out old Q&A that doesn't matter anymore. Ciel is possibly the strongest Mage on the entire planet, possesses weapon made out of DAAs, the weakest of which can destroy cities just by existing, and has the Seventh Scripture which can inflict damage on full-power Arcueid. Not only that, she hasn't even shown us its actual potential yet.

I'm not overestimating, you're underestimating. There's no ignoring that she's been buffed across the board in every single imaginable way. Her magical energy amount alone is considered the greatest on the entire planet. He's clearly set her up to be closer to an actual rival to Arc (though obviously nobody can actually win against Arc since she's supposed to basically be the strongest being on the planet).

Spoiler:

Eh, every servant has also been buffed up across the board in every single imaginable way from their original depictions merely from what later servants are capable of doing with comparable parameters (servants in strange fake, including Gil who's supposed to be physically unimpressive, pull some crazy shit off and their parameters are not that much different from what we usually see). F/SN servants in particular have been buffed really hard, with Caster being considered one of the five greatest magi in all of history, Cu's Gae Bolg being authority level, etc. Also, IIRC we've never seen the seventh scripture inflict damage on 100% Arc, Ciel was instantly defeated the moment Arc went full power and even before that couldn't do much except stall for time so she can use Calvaria while Arc's playing around with her. Because of this I wouldn't be betting too much on the Seventh Scripture's unspecified secret power making much of a difference and I don't buy that Ciel is Arc's more or less "equal" rival either. Vlov can only kill a city of people using his principle, which is on the same level as the other ancestors so "weakest" doesn't really mean anything. In fact, it's very likely Vlov is even superior in killing a large number of people quickly compared to other Ancestors judging from what we've seen so far of the other principles. Regardless, the rate at which Vlov can kill normal people with his principle doesn't mean much against servants, who've been shown to withstand comparable temperatures without much issues, since in this case they're going to be fighting each other, not competing over who can kill more humans faster.

IMO the only character in Tsukihime that has shown abilities completely beyond what a servant can handle is full power Arc. Overall I think EMIYA can beat Vlov and Ciel more often than not, especially considering he likely has plenty of weaponry to counter their immortality (and in Vlov's case, undead nature) while they don't have much to counter his nature as a spirit (though maybe Ciel can do something similar to what Kirei was threatening to do to a masterless Hassan with his baptism magic if Archer doesn't have a master to anchor him to the world, not sure if she's trained in exorcism though since she's a more vampire focused agent).

[Daiki]

Dude, space your text and stop fapping to FGO.

Using Vlov as average scale measurement for DAA true strength is a mistaken premise.

Also yes, Ciel is Servant tier now. She has the means to obliterate a Servant from the beginning with

the Scripture that destroys Souls

Seven.

The only thing that really changed is that she

Spoiler:

- killed three DAA herself -

is obviously stronger now / can keep up with them.

Deal with it.

[Clown]

Spoiler:

I never used Vlov as an average scale measurement for DAA true strength. Yes, scriptures were always one of the few weapons potentially capable of destroying a servant (Kirei mentions this when fighting Hassan), but whether they will actually do so depends entirely on the wielder. We have zero knowledge of under what circumstances she killed the other DAA and considering how much she struggled against Vlov (who's overall the weakest) it's hard to believe she's done so in a fair one on one fight. Therefore, we can't use that as evidence that she's DAA tier.

Also calm down bro no reason to be confrontational over power levels of fictional characters

[Daiki]

Spoiler:

It's not only a matter of power but also affinity. You realize how hard it is to still be operational when fighting at absolute zero temperature with a human body, yes?

Regen doesn't help you there, and you could have all the physical might that you want if you can't move properly, your effectiveness will be reduced. You'd have to be an embodiment of heat, possess your own Reality Marble or have innate magical resistance to be able to nullify that completely.

I don't believe either that she has the raw stats to go one on one with the Elder Apostles either. I doubt many in the modern era could. That's why you have to use every tool you have - the Burial Agency are considered a necessary evil after all. And also why Church members like their gadgets so much.

Still, the Burial Agency had to be buffed up in order for them to keep up with the updated DAA.

I didn't mean to be confrontational, only telling you to chill down (and space your text).

I can understand that the sudden increase in power might surprise or be difficult to swallow, but Nasu will do what he wants at the end of the day. Honestly, it wouldn't be a surprise if, as said earlier, Elder Dead Apostles end up a Beast level of threats. I mean, Primate Murder was in the old list, after all.