Badass Versus Thread

[Clown]

No, what I'm saying is the term Marble Phantasm hasn't been used to refer to any alien being's ability. I'm not denying the possibility they have similar abilities.

Well, "Marble Phantasm hasn't been used to refer to any alien being's ability" isn't saying much considering we know practically nothing about other Ultimate Ones other than Arc in the first place, much less been on the planet where they would (theoretically) have such an ability. It isn't enough to claim marble phantasm is a specific ability that can only be obtained by connecting to the Earth's will and not any other planet. The most we can do with our current knowledge is really just theorize, unless maybe ORT shows up in lb 7.

Oh yes, she created a separate world/realm, that's what I said lol. But if it was time travel that's the opposite of creating a realm. As is shifting the space to a diffeent realm entirely, which makes it impossible for anyone to extract anything without literally tearing a hole in the world's texture.

The spiritual realm was what was facilitating the time travel. The time travel is localized entirely within that "world" that Arc created, if you walked out of Arc's "world" the moon would return to normal. Also I don't think texture was even a thing back then lol.

Maybe if she isn't fighting anyone, but she literally adjusts her output based on the opponent she needs to defeat so if she needs enough energy to pull off something on a planetary scale she is going to take enough energy to do so. And the Melty Blood booklet literally states it's her Crimson Moon aspect, clearly it's not her from the past lol.

The quote was "if Arc takes off her limiters" so it seems Arc was pretty clearly using backup to full extent. Even if it wasn't, according to Nasu 30% OG Arc can only handle enough backup to equal the stats of 4 servants (normally her stats are equal to 1 servant). There's a pretty big difference in small village and a literal moon that I don't think you quite appreciate, a mere 4x boost in power isn't going to cut it.


As for the last arc, you're right lol.

Very doubtful as it's clearly supported by the narrative. It's a plot point that if Vlob's ability wasn't mitigated it would have wrecked the city.

Not really, it doesn't need to literally have city range in order for it to be a bad thing that Arc and Shiki would want to avoid getting out of control. Even kilometer range can take alot of lives, which Ciel, Arc and Shiki would take seriously. Its the same reason why Saber and Rider avoid using their NPs in Fuyuki even though its not like they'd wreck it entirely.

lol no, it's never shown to be anywhere near close to that, you're not getting anyone to accept that bullshit buddy. Taking those extremely vague stat parameters at face value for completely different type NPs isn't gonna help you.

We've literally never seen its maximum range stated anywhere else. Every single time its been used it was either blocked by something or continued on farther than the eye can see and there was never a single instance where its been even implied to be out of range. Absolutely nothing contradicts this, you're just in denial.

Mystery and power output and duration are two different things and one has been shown to make up for lack of the other.

Mystery and power are the same thing, read my previous post.

We still have zero reason to believe Excalibur is more powerful or focused than CS, especially when the later's feat utterly dwarfs the former. Either post valid feats and statements or stop wasting my time.

Well, the A+ Caladbolg did manage to destroy all of Agartha that one time and the A++ Excalibur is superior to it so yeah.

Nvm the fact that the only reason CS was even able to immobilize Arc in the first place was because Ciel made sure Arc wouldn't be able to notice CS until the last second. If Arc were fighting someone like Saber she'd measure the energy output of both Saber and Excalibur and adjust her power accordingly.

IIRC Arc actually predicted Ciel would pull out an attack like CS and adjusted her backup accordingly.

We don't know exactly how Idea Bloods work, but clearly they clearly seem to enhance magic power hence why Ciel pulled one out to block Noel's eyes.
That's a feat for Ciel if anything, I'm not sure how that "proves" anything you're claiming. It would just mean she can put her true power output on display. Clearly Arc needed to adjust her power and pull out energy from the earth's rotation to overpower Ciel with multiple Idea Bloods at the time.

Yes, the idea blood boosted her magic generation enough so that the magical energy running through her body can resist the eyes, but her circuit (that controls her magical output) which she uses for strengthening and magical spells didn't get any larger. I think its actually noted somewhere that despite having a idea blood Vlov is weaker than VII, VIII and IX dead apostles outside of his principle so they don't really seem to strengthen anything outside of magic generation and casting time. Also Arc clearly pulled out way more backup than she actually needed in that fight since she was beating Ciel just by slowly walking towards her before hand.

- - - Updated - - -

I feel like Shiki killing her is more like lowering her max HP, or breaking her HP bar itself, and she's both wasting a bunch of it by bleeding it out, and by using it to slowly try to restore her max HP.

That could be it too lol.

[Dartz]

The spiritual realm was what was facilitating the time travel. The time travel is localized entirely within that "world" that Arc created, if you walked out of Arc's "world" the moon would return to normal. Also I don't think texture was even a thing back then lol.

This is fine, this seems like a good explanation.

The quote was "if Arc takes off her limiters" so it seems Arc was pretty clearly using backup to full extent. Even if it wasn't, according to Nasu 30% OG Arc can only handle enough backup to equal the stats of 4 servants (normally her stats are equal to 1 servant). There's a pretty big difference in small village and a literal moon that I don't think you quite appreciate, a mere 4x boost in power isn't going to cut it.

I always took that to mean releasing the portion of her power that's used to hold back her vampiric impulse. Planet backup doesn't work that way. The old statement regarding Arc's stats is a mess, but the conclusion we usually went with was that she had the stats of 2 Servants and that gave her the fighting power of 4. It never seemed like there was a limit to her when it came to fighting ability even then.

We've literally never seen its maximum range stated anywhere else. Every single time its been used it was either blocked by something or continued on farther than the eye can see and there was never a single instance where its been even implied to be out of range. Absolutely nothing contradicts this, you're just in denial.

What do you mean blocked? It almost always ends up cutting through whatever it targets.

IIRC Arc actually predicted Ciel would pull out an attack like CS and adjusted her backup accordingly.

Yeah, that's why she was warping space. But the CS spell escaped her awareness so she had no idea how much energy she should have taken and she didn't have enough to completely shrug off the attack.

Yes, the idea blood boosted her magic generation enough so that the magical energy running through her body can resist the eyes, but her circuit (that controls her magical output) which she uses for strengthening and magical spells didn't get any larger. I think its actually noted somewhere that despite having a idea blood Vlov is weaker than VII, VIII and IX dead apostles outside of his principle so they don't really seem to strengthen anything outside of magic generation and casting time. Also Arc clearly pulled out way more backup than she actually needed in that fight since she was beating Ciel just by slowly walking towards her before hand.

It says although Vlob's curse doesn't take shape the temperature of the curse still manifests.
Ciel activated three Principles at the time. The fact it's stated there is a loss of humanity making her closer to a monster than a human seems to mean her body was being pushed beyond her regular limits. I seriously doubt that was base Ciel in terms of overall output.
Plus the shockwaves Arc pulled are stated two times to have cut through the city, but they were "simple" moves so it was easy for Ciel to block them by being aware of the flow of energy.
I still think they buffed Ciel a bit too much, but can't be helped. It is what it is.

[Byegod]

What you mean you think ciel was buffed too much you think?

[Petrikow]

What you mean you think ciel was buffed too much you think?

God, you have no idea how funny this is.

[LJ3]

We can always be comforted this thread always returns to form

[Clown]

I always took that to mean releasing the portion of her power that's used to hold back her vampiric impulse. Planet backup doesn't work that way. The old statement regarding Arc's stats is a mess, but the conclusion we usually went with was that she had the stats of 2 Servants and that gave her the fighting power of 4. It never seemed like there was a limit to her when it came to fighting ability even then.

There always was (and still is, judging from that new comiket book) a limit to the amount of backup True Ancestors can handle. The amount of backup and speed that they increase it varies based on the quality of the True Ancestor, but everyone has limits. This is why Arc doesn't just win every single time.
Also, here's what we know about Arc's limits:

Spoiler:

Q: How strong are Servants?
Nasu: Well you see, attack power is about the same as one fighter. A fighter has way too much power for one person too stand up against, but to destroy one city they'll have to refuel many times. But what makes these guys dangerous is that since they're spiritual bodies, regular weapons won't work against them. As far as destructive power goes, there are more numerous powerful weapons among modern ones, but as normal weapons won't do a thing to them, they're among the most powerful. Anyway, just as fighters can load a nuclear warhead, they each have their own Noble Phantasms and among the Servants there are ones that have ridiculously powerful ones. That's why when I meant strength being the same as a fighter I thought it would be easier to image. Oh and, if I were to say it in a sort of non-serious way, they'd be 1/4th of Tsukihime's Arcueid I suppose? The strength of one I mean. Against one Servant, Arc would probably win, but against two, while Arc's having trouble against the one, the other could get behind her and nail her... maybe.

Q: About the power comparison between Arc and Servants, would the Arc being compared be the 30% one or the full one?


A: That would be the 30% Arc.

Q: Who is stronger, Gilgamesh or Arcueid (30%)? While Arcueid has the strength of 4 Servants, I remember there being a scene in hollow implying that Gil was the equivalent of 5 Servants + a.


A. In the definition of Arcueid's strength, there's this thing where "her output changes according to her opponent". As an absolute order taken from her backup, the planet, she is allowed only an output a little stronger than her opponent. And. Single entity abilities of Arc and Servants are roughly on the same level


Servants use their respective Noble Phantasms while Arc uses her unlimited backup to fight, and differences occur depending on affinity. A simple-is-best Arc is an all rounder, and so generally her chances of winning are only high, but there are those opponents that she just has helplessly awful compatibility with.


For example, in cases where even if the guy's stats are about the same as Arc, he has a ridiculously large number of weapons with high versatility. As the amount Arc is allowed to take out is based on "single entity ability", against types like Gil-sama, well, you see?


And the "5 Servants + a" line is a comparison of simple "firepower". Like with the "corpses", foot soldier level opponents aren't going to be avoiding their attacks, so the ones who'd have the advantage are the ones who have more weapons. The reason why Servants excellent at one-on-one combat didn't stand out in Broad Bridge was because of this. Also, for normal Arc, she would get approximately the equivalent of 2 Servants single entity stats.

Taking "Single entity abilities of Arc and Servants are roughly on the same level", "the guy's (Gilgamesh) stats are about the same as Arc" , "Also, for normal Arc, she would get approximately the equivalent of 2 Servants single entity stats" and "they'd be 1/4th of Tsukihime's Arcueid I suppose" all together, I think its saying that 30% Arc without backup is about equal to Gilgamesh in stats (which conveniently matches up well with the recent stats we've been given for Arc), against a single servant she'd get 2 servants worth of stats from backup, and her absolute cap is 4 servants worth of stats.

What do you mean blocked? It almost always ends up cutting through whatever it targets.

When I say blocked I'm just talking about every single time the beam is stopped by something like Lord Camelot or Bellerophon + Rho Aias.

Yeah, that's why she was warping space. But the CS spell escaped her awareness so she had no idea how much energy she should have taken and she didn't have enough to completely shrug off the attack.

She didn't notice CS specifically because it escaped her awareness, but she expected Ciel to fire off an attack on its level and knew how much backup she'd need to survive it (this is mentioned shortly after Ciel launches the attack). What she didn't expect was the followup of being crushed by the Earth, which she didn't have enough backup to survive from.

It says although Vlob's curse doesn't take shape the temperature of the curse still manifests.

I'm talking about how Vlov was a VI dead apostle before taking an Idea Blood and seemed to remain a VI dead apostle in terms of physical stats even after getting one, which seems to indicate Idea Bloods don't affect physical stats. We don't know how "the temperature of the curse" manifesting affects Ciel, maybe it just means its cold.

Ciel activated three Principles at the time. The fact it's stated there is a loss of humanity making her closer to a monster than a human seems to mean her body was being pushed beyond her regular limits. I seriously doubt that was base Ciel in terms of overall output.

The "loss of humanity" part is pretty vague and could be talking about how humans aren't supposed to have 3 magic cores generating ludicrous amounts of energy in their bodies, we don't know for sure. At the very least it doesn't seem like she's becoming a dead apostle from the Idea Bloods.

Plus the shockwaves Arc pulled are stated two times to have cut through the city, but they were "simple" moves so it was easy for Ciel to block them by being aware of the flow of energy.

Thats just another way of saying the energy waves traveled through the city for about 400 meters, and judging from the CG it didn't even have to go through any buildings on the way to Ciel. Also, Ciel managed to block the first attack with nothing but pure strength, she only became aware to the flow of energy afterwards.

[Dartz]

There always was (and still is, judging from that new comiket book) a limit to the amount of backup True Ancestors can handle. The amount of backup and speed that they increase it varies based on the quality of the True Ancestor, but everyone has limits. This is why Arc doesn't just win every single time.
Also, here's what we know about Arc's limits

It's stated so many times that she has virtually no limits at all. Based on all the statements from Extra and the like if she has a limit it's not going to be as low as 4 Servants, that would make her weaker than creatures like dragons and pretty much any phantasmal species. Which is plain ridiculous.
Which new comiket book are you talking about? You only posted quotes from almost 20 years ago lol.

I'm talking about how Vlov was a VI dead apostle before taking an Idea Blood and seemed to remain a VI dead apostle in terms of physical stats even after getting one, which seems to indicate Idea Bloods don't affect physical stats. We don't know how "the temperature of the curse" manifesting affects Ciel, maybe it just means its cold.

Since when do we have any idea how a VI DA looks like in terms of stats? Noel was far more underwhelming than Vlob in that regard and she is classified as VI too.

The "loss of humanity" part is pretty vague and could be talking about how humans aren't supposed to have 3 magic cores generating ludicrous amounts of energy in their bodies, we don't know for sure. At the very least it doesn't seem like she's becoming a dead apostle from the Idea Bloods.

Going by the context, which is helping her make a difference in a fight against Arc I'd say it's likely it does enhance her overall abilities quite a bit, much like a vampire, but without becoming one. Ciel had more energy than her body could naturally handle at the time since it was stated it was overflowing.

Thats just another way of saying the energy waves traveled through the city for about 400 meters, and judging from the CG it didn't even have to go through any buildings on the way to Ciel. Also, Ciel managed to block the first attack with nothing but pure strength, she only became aware to the flow of energy afterwards.

Nah, it was stated it would have completely engulfed the school, and we don't see an end in sight for the energy wave so we don't know how far it traveled. The energy was fired through the street so of course it wouldn't have to go through buildings.
And yeah, Ciel blocked it with high effort at first. Quite an impressive feat coming from her.

[Clown]

It's stated so many times that she has virtually no limits at all. Based on all the statements from Extra and the like if she has a limit it's not going to be as low as 4 Servants, that would make her weaker than creatures like dragons and pretty much any phantasmal species. Which is plain ridiculous.
Which new comiket book are you talking about? You only posted quotes from almost 20 years ago lol.

I think you're underrating servants and overrating how strong Arc is at 30% of her strength. Even a single servant is capable of slaying dragons and taking out hordes of lesser phantasmals. The only ones really above most servants are divine phantasmal beasts and even those can be defeated by the stronger servants. Arc is only one of the top tiers in the Nasuverse at 100%, there are many things stronger than her at 30%.
Also, here's the comiket book, there's a section on True Ancestors.
https://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthrea...I-KOUHON/page3

[Dartz]

I think you're underrating servants and overrating how strong Arc is at 30% of her strength. Even a single servant is capable of slaying dragons and taking out hordes of lesser phantasmals. The only ones really above most servants are divine phantasmal beasts and even those can be defeated by the stronger servants. Arc is only one of the top tiers in the Nasuverse at 100%, there are many things stronger than her at 30%.
Also, here's the comiket book, there's a section on True Ancestors.
https://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthrea...I-KOUHON/page3

Doesn't seem much different from the stuff mentioned in Ciel's route, except that one is focused on Arc, which says as the strongest TA and the one who holds the Brunestud title her limits are virtually nonexistent. I feel like there is quite a discrepancy between 4 Servants and "Boundless magical power, boundless stamina and endlessly improving performance".
Nasu has always tried to hammer the point that Arc is the most powerful character in his works and people still doubt him!
Even in Fate/Extra when Ultimate One is limited on the moon it's still an EX rank authority, and Arc is also put on the same category as the likes of BB and Kiara.
She is still top tier regardless of whether 30% or not.

[Clown]

Doesn't seem much different from the stuff mentioned in Ciel's route, except that one is focused on Arc, which says as the strongest TA and the one who holds the Brunestud title her limits are virtually nonexistent. I feel like there is quite a discrepancy between 4 Servants and "Boundless magical power, boundless stamina and endlessly improving performance".

I mean yeah for all intensive purposes having the strength cap of 4 servants is equivalent virtually nonexistent limits. That's literally more than half a holy grail war, as long as she isn't punching Gods or Beasts its more than enough to splatter almost everyone on the planet, DAA, phantasmal beast or otherwise.

Nasu has always tried to hammer the point that Arc is the most powerful character in his works and people still doubt him!
Even in Fate/Extra when Ultimate One is limited on the moon it's still an EX rank authority, and Arc is also put on the same category as the likes of BB and Kiara.
She is still top tier regardless of whether 30% or not.

She's very good for sure even at 30%, but not quite on the level of BB and Kiara. Even with the unique ability of weakening opponents to a sixth of their strength that she gets in the moon cell, she barely has a chance of victory against Amaterasu.

[Nanaya]

I think people will downplay Tsukihime until Nasu lets some shitter write a spinoff where some wack successor destroys a replica universe or something.

[Kubera]

I think you're underrating servants and overrating how strong Arc is at 30% of her strength. Even a single servant is capable of slaying dragons and taking out hordes of lesser phantasmals. The only ones really above most servants are divine phantasmal beasts and even those can be defeated by the stronger servants. Arc is only one of the top tiers in the Nasuverse at 100%, there are many things stronger than her at 30%.
Also, here's the comiket book, there's a section on True Ancestors.
https://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthrea...I-KOUHON/page3

It depends since there are dragons in every tier of Phantasmal Beasts. Truly strong dragons like Fafnir (who isn't a Divine Beast or anything as far as I'm aware) are stronger than top tier servants, even Sigurd in his interlude needed help to beat him and while he managed to win 1vs1 while he was alive, it was a super tough fight.

I mean yeah for all intensive purposes having the strength cap of 4 servants is equivalent virtually nonexistent limits. That's literally more than half a holy grail war, as long as she isn't punching Gods or Beasts its more than enough to splatter almost everyone on the planet, DAA, phantasmal beast or otherwise.

Excalibur can kill a top servant like Heracles at least 6 times over. Having only the stats of 4 servants would still put her below top tier servants with their NPs.

She's very good for sure even at 30%, but not quite on the level of BB and Kiara. Even with the unique ability of weakening opponents to a sixth of their strength that she gets in the moon cell, she barely has a chance of victory against Amaterasu.

All the other characters in the Extra games are stated to have 0 chance against Amaterasu, so that's not really an anti-feat.

[Kamera]

Dartz posting dozen pages of Arcueid shilling on the Badass Versus thread... nature is healing

[Nanaya]

Dartz posting dozen pages of Arcueid shilling on the Badass Versus thread... nature is healing

I hope he stays around but increases his hustle to include all things Moon Princess. Dead Apostles, Oni and the Church will surely need his enthusiasm.

[Blastedspider]

"Boundless magical power, boundless stamina and endlessly improving performance".

In F/GO terms that's pretty much your average "event boss", which usually is taken out by a team of 3 to 5 average Servants.

[Dartz]

I mean yeah for all intensive purposes having the strength cap of 4 servants is equivalent virtually nonexistent limits. That's literally more than half a holy grail war, as long as she isn't punching Gods or Beasts its more than enough to splatter almost everyone on the planet, DAA, phantasmal beast or otherwise.

I'm sorry this stuff never flied 14 years ago, it's not gonna fly now. You're assuming there is a cap according to stuff like her bloodlust and the amount she is using to control her impulse, but if that were the case it would be impossible to tear the likes of Vlob and Nrvnqsr (in the original) apart like she did since she'd be working with as low energy as 2% power at some times and her base power alone would get considerably smaller. I'm pretty sure that was never the case with her, especially after recent showings.
Fact is there is no stated cap for her at all aside from you clinging to an interpretation of an old quote almost two decades old lol, and a body of evidence and statements outright claiming she has no limit at all, so it's a no brainer.

She's very good for sure even at 30%, but not quite on the level of BB and Kiara. Even with the unique ability of weakening opponents to a sixth of their strength that she gets in the moon cell, she barely has a chance of victory against Amaterasu.

But Nasu said she is on the same cheat level category as them and only the Moon Cell limits her Ultimate One ability which otherwise explicitly states to make her all-powerful. And yeah, she is weaker than Amaterasu on the Moon Cell, but so is everyone else due to how the Moon Cell works.

I think people will downplay Tsukihime until Nasu lets some shitter write a spinoff where some wack successor destroys a replica universe or something.

Wasn't the luminous body's energy stated to be compressed to 10^-35) meters? That's planck length. For comparison's sake the difference between a human and the universe is orders of magnitude smaller than a human and planck length.

- - - Updated - - -

In F/GO terms that's pretty much your average "event boss", which usually is taken out by a team of 3 to 5 average Servants.

Yeah, but context matters. They don't usually have an authority that literally makes them more powerful than their opponent.

[Blastedspider]

Yeah, but context matters. They don't usually have an authority that literally makes them more powerful than their opponent.

There is no indication that this ability does anything besides giving her a temporary stats boost.

[Dartz]

No indication? You just need to play the game. It increases everything from her magical energy to her overall output.

[Blastedspider]

All Elementals (and spirits in general, I think) have a) "pool" capacity (how much "power" they have in general) and b) output capacity (how much power they can exercise at the time). Arcueid is a high-level Elemental and the Ultimate One ability allows her to tweak the output, so she can potentially become as strong as the World itself (which indeed would put her on the same level as BB). But that ability is limited by opponent's output capacity, so in "vs a Servant" situations she cannot exceed "Servant level x 4".

[Dartz]

Oh yeah, I agree with everything you said. Even in Ciel's route it states the flaw in her ability is that she can't reach the level of a god while fighting humans.