Yeah, the fact that Types come with concepts different from what you find on Earth is the main issue.
ORT is "mercuryforming" Gaia during its sleep, yo. Think about that for a second.
It's not only power and scale, you also need the right affinity or have specific weaponry to deal with (each of) these guys.
That was one of the Six Sisters during the war against the Ether Liners. It took the other 5 to achieve mutual destruction with Type Pluto. They always seemed to be very formidable though, not too far from the level of a Type.Originally Posted by eddyak
The priest was waiting for the arrival of the princess, who was only an enemy of all of them.
For the priest, the golden princess was the one and only main heroine.
Everyone else was unworthy of his respect, no matter how strong they were.
Tsukihime 2 Prelude III
Well since 30% Arc without any backup has B rank parameters all around in F/GO, if we assume linear scaling (questionable, I know), 100% Arc should have approximately A++ parameters all around. While this is probably stronger than any individual servant, I don't think a team of some of the strongest servants would be beaten without a fight. I do believe the trio has a chance at victory, especially since they have infinite mana and Crimson Moon wouldn't have any of Arc's more powerful hax like marble phantasm.
Oh God, we've come full circle with the Arc wank.
Is this the future you expected? Nasu?!
shit BL says
Once and always and nevermore.
TM with no Arc wank isn't TM. I'm now waiting for FGO to give us an overpowered Super Gilgamesh so that everything can be right again.
Don't think this line of reasoning really works, Arc is explicitly nerfed by being stuck in a Servant Saint Graph (also, stats are unreliable). A better way would be to scale her from other Elementals or similar beings who have been shown to be able to take on a group of servants (Woodwose, Mei-Ren).
Stats are also meaningless for Arcueid: she adjusts them according to her opponent's level.
Because of her being in a Saint Graph in FGO, there actually is a limit to this power. Otherwise the planet would just keep pumping steroids into her until she's strong enough for the situation.
As far as I'm aware the only thing that manifesting in a saint graph nerfed is her Earth authority, thereby weakening her backup and ability to manipulate the Earth from "playing pinball with continents" to "causing large storms and earthquakes". It's never been stated to affect her base stats in anyway to my knowledge.
Also even if Arc uses her backup most of the time there are moments where she isn't able to do so (for example, when Shiki cut her connection to the planet in the Ciel route), so I wouldn't say Arc's base stats are entirely meaningless. I also think there's a cap on her backup even when it isn't nerfed because of her Fate/Extra profile stating there are some opponents that her specs are unable to exceed.
That being said, Arc's Earth authority is irrelevant to this discussion since Crimson Moon doesn't have it anyway and therefore wouldn't be getting any backup.
Because of the Moon Cell. Her abilities are gimped.
Anyway, she also notes that her Saint Graph body is frail. And you can't really fault Shiki killing the world against her. Not many are going to be able to kill nature(Let alone that completely) in an area to where she can't draw anything at all and weaken her*.
Guess you weren't aware enough.
This discussion is being derailed a bit lol
IIRC the materials only state the length of time she can use her backup for is nerfed due to the moon cell, not that the amount of backup she can receive is nerfed.
I can't read Japanese but if my mtl is correct this just states her backup is weakened to only being able to improve her parameters once or twice due to not having a world egg. It doesn't seem to say anything about her base parameters.
That's the point, Arc at 100% power isn't just her Base Parameters times 3 likes you so naively tried to calculate. Even in a nerfed Saint Graph state she can still take those parameters 1-2 times higher. Does that equal 30% Arc? Probably not, since 30% Arc is still using the much more powerful World Egg frame. The point is, those parameters do you little good on trying to calculate her actual capabilities. You were super far off.
Was it ever clarified whether 30%/100% Arc includes her backup from the Earth and not just her innate capabilities without backup? Asking because I haven't read Tsukihime Remake and I don't recall it being talked about in OG Tsuki.
Arc is 30% because of her bloodlust and having to use 70% of her power to restrain it. Technically she should be less than 30% total because of stolen power. Why would she be receiving backup to put her above an enemy when she's normally already above everyone and that's her walking around state?
It says it raises her power to be above her enemy and that on the earth there is no penalty but in the moon cell there exists duration limitations and some enemies can't be exceeded. It's the same skill that's being nerfed by her saint graph except even more useless.IIRC the materials only state the length of time she can use her backup for is nerfed due to the moon cell, not that the amount of backup she can receive is nerfed.
I feel like I'm the only one really reading the story because in the Extra CCC Matrix, we already have Dragons being able to throw around Dragon Breath equal to destroying a Country on their own(Which is collaborated on with Fafnir very easily trying to do that in the Mortallis Stella telling of Orleans and Siegfried completely believed he can stop that) and regardless of the damage afterwards, Lostbelt Artemis very clearly can blow right through Planets with her Laser and the only thing capable of stopping her is a Divine Construct of any kind according to Hephaestus.
Grands should very easily be stronger than that, last I checked. Of course, I'm not discounting TYPEs but let's not pretend we should ignore what the Story itself has shown and given us nor should we believe that at this point, TYPEs aren't going to get a levelup as the Servants did since F/SN and beyond.
Hell, my argument isn't even that TYPEs aren't as strong as Servants, it's just we have nothing to prove that alone outside of Arcueid and ORT(And even if we go with Crimson Moon vs. Prime Zelretch, do we have any idea of Zelretch completely outstrips a Grand by that logic? Or are we going by the context of the feat itself but ignore the other evidence in Servants' favor that Nasu has ultimately allowed to go through and even acknowledges in his own storylines?)
It's because Ultimate One is limited on the Moon Cell rather than there being a cap to it. Since the restriction you mention directly follows from "due to being on the Moon Cell".
The priest was waiting for the arrival of the princess, who was only an enemy of all of them.
For the priest, the golden princess was the one and only main heroine.
Everyone else was unworthy of his respect, no matter how strong they were.
Tsukihime 2 Prelude III
iirc it was stated post Tsukihime Arc is at 50% of her full power so the power Roa took from her seems to be taken into account when it's said Arc is at 30%.
At any rate, if her backup outside the moon cell truly doesn't have a cap on how strong she can get then it follows that her backup isn't taken into account when determining whether she is "30%" or "100%" since if Arc can just grow stronger limitlessly she wouldn't have a 100% in the first place. Consequently, I think it's likely for 100% Arc to really just be her F/GO stats multiplied by about 3, even if it seems kind of dumb.
I actually wonder if they'll address her % post Tsuki in MBTL since they're basically doing the same setting as old MB and her recent profile just said she's always using 70%.
Grands aren't going to be straight up more powerful than gods. They're the ideal version of a hero, not somebody who blasts Namek into a million pieces.
FGO Supports
About Arc in FGO, or as a servant in general, it doesn't really need to be stated in her profile that she's nerfed tbh. It happens to every particularly strong hero. Just look at Heian compared to Shimousa, since it's probably the most direct comparison we have. Arc even more so due to her role and status, since even less special Elementals are still OP. Also it's been like 6 years since I played Extra so I might be saying something dumb, but wasn't there something about Gatou nerfing her by believing she was a divine spirit since she was actually better than that?
I don't really see the point in bringing up Zelretch. He's a walking cheat code, there's no reason why he would be stronger or weaker than anyone. He's the one who scales from Crimson Moon, not the opposite.
And honestly yeah, characters in Notes killing continents is more than proof enough. Even wanking dragons by assuming they can break the whole landmass the country is on that's still far from being continental scale, and only an handful of servants would comfortably surpass Fafnir. Also there are like two different occasions where a random meteor being a danger to strong servants was a plot point, lots of people are impressed or scared by Ivan being mountain sized, Tiamat's 1st form releasing as much energy as a nuclear bomb was a big thing, and probably lots of other stuff I don't remember rn. Even if you go up to true gods and stuff, a lot of Skadi's hype was due to being able to cover Scandinavia in magical energy, and Surtr's hype was being able to burn it.
I'm not even saying TYPES should all be 100% stronger than any Beasts or Grands or whatever. Just that they're clearly in that big ballpark of higher tiers, as they are the peak lifeforms of entire planets, while Earth is full of Elementals, Gods and weapons that outscale servants with ease.
im not interested in debating the strenght of types because everyone has their opinion about that, but why do people think they can destroy the planet when their enemies where comparable to nuclear bombs and they were not inmediatly killed during battle against them, the special thing is their durability except against slash emperor and the special ability each has and the only feat they have is the core of jupiter going berserk after beign sliced in half and only burning the surface of a single continent
Last edited by Light; August 11th, 2022 at 11:29 AM.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
NA
JP