reading notes for the powerlevels in a soundbiteType-Venus: shot down by Gun God then corrupted by humanity.
reading notes for the powerlevels in a soundbiteType-Venus: shot down by Gun God then corrupted by humanity.
Considering servant pretty consistently cause massive damage to their surroundings just from the air pressure of their attacks while having their physical interaction with the world reduced that's not out of line. Also, Alcides hurling multiple >human sized boulders high in the air by basically flexing with unamped A-rank strength is a thing. Also, even by FGO standards, demonic beasts in general are immune to most modern weapons, and servants directly scale to them physically unless they're at the very high end of the demonic beasts.Originally Posted by eddyak
edit: also on Artoria, her saying that she could an attack so long as it could only destroy a 50 story building is also a thing back in stay night. Concrete would be an understatement for her.
Last edited by I Can't Believe It's Not A NoblePhantasm; April 5th, 2020 at 10:43 PM.
Rider Odysseus vs Saber Sigurd.
A battle that I would really like to see.
Wait for Ody mats I guess?
Otherwise I'm not seeing how Ody gets past Gram, Runes and Sigurd's beefy stats and skill.
I have no idea what you're trying to say with your first paragraph, but yes, Servants are stronk. And when did the second thing happen?
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Luck EX vs Luck E.
A battle to behold.
Couldn't the conceptual defenses from Aigis handle the runes?
He also has A+ in Endurance.
Hahaha.
Sure, but it's still pretty vague for Ody, and Sigurd always has Gram to punch/beam. He's pretty strong in his own right too, as a top tier Saber.
You seemed to be indicating that their durability doesn't scale to their attack potency. The point is clearly they also have to be insanely durable. They're not ripping their muscles to shreds every time they attack, and the after effects of their attacks are equivalent to powerful explosion, but it does nothing to them. We could reasonably expect something like a rocket launcher to do absolutely nothing to servants(not counting their invincibility to everything that's not magic) considering they're exposed to at least that level of impact each time they clash. The scaling to demonic beasts also conclusively indicates, that, yes, they're virtually untouchable by anything that's from the modern era in attack potency.
The second thing was the final fight between Saber VS Rider in the fate route. She had an internal monologue that stated that, so long as Medusa had an attack that could only destroy the building, she could endure it and retaliate. The choice where Shirou doesn't go up the stairs initially has him noting that said building was 50 stories.
Last edited by I Can't Believe It's Not A NoblePhantasm; April 6th, 2020 at 10:57 AM.
I mean Servants aren't really said to be invincible vs anything non magic. Their invincibility is more phasing/Mystics dependent.
They're ghosts. It makes sense that regular matter isn't gonna touch them, unless they let it.
Also remember that Saber isn't a ghost.
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I'm talking about the force itself if there were a scenario where normal weapons could interact with servants while not getting amped.We could reasonably expect something like a rocket launcher to do absolutely nothing to servants(not counting their invincibility to everything that's not magic)
There is literally no evidence that they're more durable than humans, magic armour or magic invincibility or general ghostiness aside.
Medea, with her can't-carry-shopping-bags strength, manages to stab at least two Servants. Shirou, with his human strength, stabs or otherwise wounds... three? Yeah, three.
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Aside from instances where they no-sell hits that would instantly kill ordinary humans whether by statements or feats such as the Artoria Example, Alcides being punched hard enough to have a hill collapse on him ect?
I'm assuming that's from Hollow Ataraxia. This sounds like a gag, especially when even other servants with the same strength ranking are clearly superhuman (Giles de Reis). Unless Shirou did so prior to obtaining his "switch" for his magic circuit, he was not fighting as a "normal human." Just by having a magic circuit active, magi become superhuman, Shirou included.
Alcides is a demigod who's one of the strongest in Fate. Gilles also has circuits.
And no, magi are not superhuman until they specifically reinforce themselves or cast spells specifically to that effect. Magic ain't that much of a free ride.
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I'd say it seems Servants have a much larger amount of... Let's call it "life force", though "Hit Points" may be more accurate... than regular humans, not that they're physically hardier (obvious exceptions like God Hand or Karna's armoured skin aside), at least not to the extent that, say, they'd have bullet-proof skins or similar.
Also, I think that trying to apply real-world physics to the Nasuverse is like doing the same to a comic-book universe: it may be fun, but I doubt you're going to get any satisfactory answers.
Said demigod has B-rank endurance, which measures a servant's toughness meaning we can use him as one of our baselines since the series scales their performance by values, so a C-rank endurance servant could take 75% of the punishment Alcides could. Don't get your retort to Giles.
And no, magi are not superhuman until they specifically reinforce themselves or cast spells specifically to that effect. Magic ain't that much of a free ride.
Yes they are. Rin only activates gravity-based magic for her jump, yet was moving fast enough "to appear as a blur to normal people." In the Fate Route, Shirou specifically notes the physical amps he gets just from accessing his circuit before beginning his charge against Shinji, and as he beats the crap out of him. Magic circuits are passive amps. You also didn't list the moments Shirou stabs servants. Now, I know of Salter, and that varies entirely depending on whether or not she's neutralized or not. Shirou's dagger goes straight through her armor in the correct choice, but there's also a choice that results in Shirou trying to hit her arm (some of which is not armored at all if you look at her sprite), charges with superhuman ability, and without even having anything to pay attention, the dagger shatters.
Now we're getting into weird territory. How are you defining "hit points?" Are you talking about instant regen(which isn't the case for every servant)? I'd say we have a lot of circumstances that point to servants having the body toughness to tank attacks. Otherwise, they'd effectively blow up whenever a physical blow lands. Unless "hit points" also translates into keeping themselves intact, that can't be correct, not to mention that, if so, we're splitting hairs, as pretty much anything short of large-scale artillery IRL would be insignificant, if artillery would do anything itself.
Gilles has magic circuits, he can reinforce to do the skull crushing.
Rin doesn't need to specifically cast a spell to reinforce, she's good enough to do it without that. The Shirou thing is reinforcement, and in Fate he chops off Gil's arm, stabs Archer (when he's stone cold out of mana, so no reinforcement going on there) and stabs Salter, through her armour.
And yeah, the hit points thing is actually how it was described ingame, IIRC the description went something like "Servants are made out of mana, which is like having a set amount of hit points- a battle between Servants is trying to shave off that mana, to bring those hit points down to zero, or else to hit the cores that maintain them".
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Within the grand scheme of things, all Servants roughly occupy the same patch of Mystery. This is why they aren't barred (by Mystery at least) from hurting each other.
That said, Heroic Spirits who were just regular humans in their lives, have themselves amped by virtue of being in a Servant container. Summoned Prelati has superhuman eyesight compared to Francesca. This should likewise extend to strength/endurance/agility, and we should expect a higher rank to mean a bigger amp.
How much rock can Artoria withstand, equalized for Mystery? That'd be tough to answer, but it's probably a lot. B/C endurance + Prana Burst should be quite superhuman by any standard.
When Rin hurt Caster, she was reinforcing herself with magic and taking Caster off-guard. She needed a few good hits to really do her good, and that's a Servant with D rank endurance.
When Shirou went of against Gilgamesh, Mystery was no problem as all he had at disposal was Noble Phantasms. If I'm reading the VN correctly, he cut off Gil's arms by reeling in Kanshou and Bakuya, Mjolnir style. This is enough to deal with C rank endurance, but that's cutting with flying enchanted swords.
Those are the two cases that I know of, and we can't infer a lot from them. I'd guess that Servants with lower endurance are light-superhuman (i.e. on the level of some modern-day reinforcement magic), while at C/B and up you really do get into superhuman territory (you likely wouldn't care much for small caliber mystery-bullets or a large mystery-wall falling on you or something).
Am I crazy, or was there an entry somewhere where Gilles's E-rank strength was specifically referenced for the skull crushing as a "even E-rankers can do this"? I seem to remember that there was something like that a while back. Either way, technically all servants have magic circuits in one way or another.
Ok, exactly. Rin's normally just physically fit, but normal, the only remaining option is performance thanks to magic circuits. No, there's no mention of Shirou reinforcing himself. The mere presence of the circuits being turned on does this. Projection actually changes Shirou's performance considerably. Letting the sword guide his strikes lets him do things he himself can't, such as stand up to Kuzuki as long as his swords are maintained, produce an A-rank attack(cut off Herc's arm), easily handle Herc's attacks as long as he was focused on projecting rather than being in the fight. Shirou's performance in CQB was outright better than Gilgamesh's, so it's kind of a given that was a superhuman action.Rin doesn't need to specifically cast a spell to reinforce, she's good enough to do it without that. The Shirou thing is reinforcement, and in Fate he chops off Gil's arm, stabs Archer (when he's stone cold out of mana, so no reinforcement going on there) and stabs Salter, through her armour.
As for Archer, you're literally arguing that a character < 1/10 of his usual ability thanks to mana starving, and getting stabbed by a legendary weapon is indicative of servants as a whole. If all his abilities were degraded equally, his endurance would have a numerical value of less than 3. Not to mention that magic circuits are always producing magical energy unless the user turns them off. This means that the circuit was still active, but he had not reserves, not that it wasn't amping him.
As for Salter, already addressed that, but to elaborate, she was barely conscious, with a deeply wounded body, magical energy can't exist within a body that's too wounded to use it (Caster), and absolutely is not an indicate of her normal durability, and was probably in the state where she's inferior to Shirou and Rin in physicality. Again, outside of that circumstance, the dagger shatters. Also, Shirou's superhuman, especially with Archer's arm.
Oh, so this is what's being referred to. This is not mutually exclusive to having superhuman durability. This just means servants can reform their body with mana, which damages the core, and head and heart damage deal direct damage to the core. This is not an automatic process, as we see Saber actively do it after Gae Bolg. If this were the only thing keeping them alive in attacks, and they have normal durability otherwise, then a servant could literally just rip off the arm of another servant no problem, and every punch or kick would just go straight through them, and they'd be a bloody mess until they reformed. That's not what happens. There still has to be an attack powerful enough to damage the body in the first place before damage to the core can be done.And yeah, the hit points thing is actually how it was described ingame, IIRC the description went something like "Servants are made out of mana, which is like having a set amount of hit points- a battle between Servants is trying to shave off that mana, to bring those hit points down to zero, or else to hit the cores that maintain them".
Effectively this + the mana consumption to recover from attacks. Also, Shirou was amped to the extent that he was the superior CQB fighter, so bear that in mind as well. "He can't handle my strikes, so he must destroy my sword by destroying his own" was a thing. So Shriou had enchanted swords+substantial striking power in the servant range.
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