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Thread: Fate/Grand Order: Babylonia

  1. #3441
    死徒 Dead Apostle AAM1232's Avatar
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    Right now, Tiamat in the anime has nothing more than super strong destructive monster that wants to destroy humanity. I do think the things about how she's handicapping herself and so on would add more to her and make her a better character. You don't really ger much beyond Gil's Beast expo, when people are probably wondering why Tiamat is a Beast in the first place.

    If this is added later then fine, but rn I can see why people don't feel like Tiamat has more than just being a final boss cause plot, per anime only.

  2. #3442
    Harbringer of Beguiling Light bassgs435's Avatar
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    It IS needed even if she's a monster that is about to end humanity (and already has a lot of death on her hands). Look at my avatar: Reinhard Heydrich from Dies irae. Why do DI fans like him and the other villains, despite how despicable they are (and Reinhard has the bonus of being based on a real life monster)?
    Because Masada gave them characterization. Beyond the threat they present he gave them clear personalities, goals, struggles, origins.
    If Tiamat is given characterization, the experience would improve a lot. Right now, you could give all her powers and threat to a random Precure MOTW and there'd be no difference. She's just a very OP MOTW right now. And if the game did more to make her a character and not a MOTW, that should be reflected in the anime
    Spoiler:

    Spoiler:


    DINO GETTER,FUCK YESS
    Spoiler:

  3. #3443
    死徒 Dead Apostle
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballinamon View Post
    Are actually the parts about Tiamat character so important in the great scheme of the things? Yes, it adds characterization but for what purpose?
    To establish your antagonist is literally not just a zero dimensional entity that's bad for the sake of being bad? How the audience receives that information is a separate and subjective matter. Stripping Tiamat of her characterization is objectively terrible, when she had so little already. It's bad even on a conflict perspective. In the game, you can see Ishtar, the person with the closest connection is legitimately saddened to fight her on at least two separate occasions, adding veracity to Tiamat being her 'mother' instead of just a figure being called that and expecting the audience to run with it. Show and not telling goes a long way and a war where both sides have reasons to fight (reluctantly) is much more interesting than beating down a wall.
    Fill me, why the fang wall is strong enough to hold the Chaos Tide?
    I don't believe it's spelled out. We're just supposed to figure their design structure could temporarily insulate the chaos tide.

  4. #3444
    napishtim = utnapishtim = blah blah conceptual defense against floods

  5. #3445
    Deadpan Dead People LegalLoliLover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bassgs435 View Post
    It IS needed even if she's a monster that is about to end humanity (and already has a lot of death on her hands). Look at my avatar: Reinhard Heydrich from Dies irae. Why do DI fans like him and the other villains, despite how despicable they are (and Reinhard has the bonus of being based on a real life monster)?
    Because Masada gave them characterization. Beyond the threat they present he gave them clear personalities, goals, struggles, origins.
    Well, the reason that I like the LDO is because they are the closest thing in Japanese works to Elder Scrolls' Dark Brotherhood that I can think of at the moment.
    May the Light of Zvezda Shine Throughout This World!
    Spoiler:

  6. #3446
    全力後輩 - Zenryoku Kohai Altima of the Gates's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CO9p5JMGv!p9 View Post
    doesn't tiamat only leak mud from her legs? at least I don't recall it coming from anywhere else
    Spoiler:
    but if fate hadn't backed away from the sex stuff since the F/SN we all know that tiamat would be leaking the mud from her vagina because lol birth metaphors
    It's not really like Type-Moon is holding back that much. I mean Zouken now has giant spiders along with rotting corpses and all types of familiars in the basement. Also, he can make himself into a damn Gundam. That shit now makes a childhood in that creepy mausoleum even more eye gougingly terrifying.
    But on Tiamat, it's already pretty gross that you get overwritten down to the genetic and spiritual level, like, isn't that worse than the Curse of Annihilation? Like you can't Rain of Isis that away. She is the salt water, so it's so obvious you can infer all the mollusk innuendo without it needing to be blatantly.

  7. #3447
    吸血鬼 Vampire
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    wanna hear an horrifying thought ? CGI idiotetia if (they fucking will lmao) they animate solomorons's temple
    fate grand order ID:400977753

  8. #3448
    リビングデッド Living Dead Stevethepi's Avatar
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    I honestly don't think Tiamat not having much characterization matters much she never has any scenes she has to carry with her dialogue or anything she always just a vague background threat. I also really don't like the whole "She was holding back" stuff anyway as it makes her motivations seem way to human which undermines the whole dread aspect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    I mean, plenty judge without being able to actually read the story, so why not judge when nobody can actually read the story?

  9. #3449
    死徒 Dead Apostle Comun's Avatar
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    I also think a character who can't communicate is an objectively terrible idea, but since there are people who like Tiamat, the anime most definitely should be giving them the things they liked about Tiamat.

  10. #3450
    死徒 Dead Apostle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevethepi View Post
    I honestly don't think Tiamat not having much characterization matters much she never has any scenes she has to carry with her dialogue or anything she always just a vague background threat. I also really don't like the whole "She was holding back" stuff anyway as it makes her motivations seem way to human which undermines the whole dread aspect.
    I can see this perspective, though I've never thought that way myself. Tiamat is a case where the enemy holding back makes sense with the concept the writers were going for without demeaning her antagonism. She's your mom, which is one of the strongest bonds and forms of love out there. She still feels some affection the children that betrayed her, but has to kill them to survive. But she's also not blameless either. One of the consistent themes about gods across pantheons is that even if they might appear human, they're systems with machine-like mentalities, fulfilling a purpose. For Tiamat, that was to keep giving birth and being a mother, and she can't/doesn't want to stop that. That's her inhumanity and our justification for rejecting her.

    Tiamat doesn't have much in the way of personality (well duh, she's braindead), but I liked her circumstances.

  11. #3451
    魔力供給 Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevethepi View Post
    I honestly don't think Tiamat not having much characterization matters much she never has any scenes she has to carry with her dialogue or anything she always just a vague background threat. I also really don't like the whole "She was holding back" stuff anyway as it makes her motivations seem way to human which undermines the whole dread aspect.
    Her holding back is pure mother instinct that is not exclusive to humans. In Asian countries there's a saying "even a fierce tigress wouldn't eat their own cub".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    I also think a character who can't communicate is an objectively terrible idea, but since there are people who like Tiamat, the anime most definitely should be giving them the things they liked about Tiamat.
    Ironically her being unable to communicate (outside of the dream) is what ppl like about her, while some characters who talks a lot fall flat and failed to stand out. This combines with her design that is appealing to some (I also like the symbolism behind the design) is what makes her more memorable.


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  12. #3452
    鬼 Ogre-like You's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballinamon View Post
    Are actually the parts about Tiamat character so important in the great scheme of the things? Yes, it adds characterization but for what purpose? make me feel bad about her?
    Yes. The entire point of these Beasts are they are both human evil and human love.
    Inhuman things true, but they reflect the human that the protagonists are fighting so hard for as well.
    This conflict has meaning because it's about moving from the past, the mother. Unless you show how Tiamat embodies the inhuman human extremes of motherhood, there's little point printing
    C H I L D H O O D ' S E N D

    Not to say the game did a perfect job of this either. A lot of the characterization for Tiamat is left to her profile and mats.
    However, that dream scene would have been really great.
    Though abandoned, forgotten, and scorned as out-of-date dolls, they continue to carry out their mission, unchanged from the time they were designed.
    Machines do not lose their worth when a newer model appears.
    Their worth (life) ends when humans can no longer bear that purity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ticeexcenny
    In my opinion you are not right. I am assured. Let's discuss it. Write to me in PM, we will talk.

  13. #3453
    魔力供給 Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballinamon View Post
    Are actually the parts about Tiamat character so important in the great scheme of the things? Yes, it adds characterization but for what purpose? make me feel bad about her?
    1) It is to justify how one "originally takes 7 Grands to beat" can be taken down: she did 99,99999% of the job for the cast.

    2) It is to set the ground standard of the whole "evil of man is also love of man" that all later Beasts follow, as the first one to debut.

    3) Yes some ppl feel bad for her. And if you want to go deep in the hellhole of tumblr, you'll find ppl even gone crazy how Nasu let his misogynistic idealogy manifested through the horrible treatment of Tiamat as as a breeding device who was abandoned once she's done her purpose. But let's not go there cuz I had to wash my eyes after all that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    Yes. The entire point of these Beasts are they are both human evil and human love.
    Inhuman things true, but they reflect the human that the protagonists are fighting so hard for as well.
    This conflict has meaning because it's about moving from the past, the mother. Unless you show how Tiamat embodies the inhuman human extremes of motherhood, there's little point printing
    C H I L D H O O D ' S E N D

    Not to say the game did a perfect job of this either. A lot of the characterization for Tiamat is left to her profile and mats.
    However, that dream scene would have been really great.
    Speaking of Childhood's End, the whole Lahmus - new humanity and the situation we had to deal with mirrors the events of the Childhood's End book by Arthur C Clarke, which is cool.


    まかせておきなさい、魔王様!

  14. #3454
    Horseman War of Apocalypse Wandering Swordwoman's Avatar
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    I don't think they'll even bother to show the "evil of man is also love of man" if they don't adapt Solomon
    Spoiler:

    Wandering on internet

  15. #3455
    The Greatest Cool Reign's Avatar
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    I'm assuming the next episode or one after will delve into Tiamat a bit in a pre-opening scene. Seems like the kind of thing they'd start an episode with. If they don't though that'll be a problem, yeah.

  16. #3456
    魔力供給 Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wandering Swordwoman View Post
    I don't think they'll even bother to show the "evil of man is also love of man" if they don't adapt Solomon
    Then it would make them even more stupid when they went out of their way to show Solomon scenes in this anime that got ppl wondering why. Heck the dream scene with Tiamat is basically narrated by Solomon.


    まかせておきなさい、魔王様!

  17. #3457
    Quote Originally Posted by LJ3 View Post
    Has bad CGI ever been edited out for anime BDs?
    Mekakucity Actors but then it was Shaft being Shaft...

  18. #3458
    Harbringer of Beguiling Light bassgs435's Avatar
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    To get the CG to change, the creators would need to see it as a problem or something they didn't intend. So, if I'm right and it was on purpose, your only hope is that japanese fanbase are complaining loud enough for them to realize their idea didn't work like intended. So I ask: Anyone has any data on how the japanese fans reacted to CG Tiamat?
    Spoiler:

    Spoiler:


    DINO GETTER,FUCK YESS
    Spoiler:

  19. #3459
    分かろうとするな、感じれ Mcjon01's Avatar
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    Some people like it, some people hate it, some people think that using CG to make her seem alien was a nice idea in theory but that in practice it still broke their suspension of disbelief and pulled them out of the show when they saw it. Also lots of vocaloid jokes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Probably in general more negative than positive, just going by twitter? But not like show-ruining disaster or anything.

  20. #3460
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six pinetree's Avatar
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    So pretty much the same as over here

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