[Spoilers] What happens to Sakura in the Fate/UBW routes?

[warellis]

As for the whole analogy as to why Tokiomi actually trusted Zouken, I would agree with the whole magic Trump as opposed to magic Musk analogy. On the outside, things look better than they are since Zouken is such a powerful mage and commands far more respect than his family currently should. If he had done a little digging, Tokiomi would probably have found out that the Matous haven't passed on a magic crest in generations and that every few generations, a new Zouken pops up that looks exactly like the first one like clockwork. If that isn't suspicious, I don't know what is.

How exactly can Tokiomi do any digging when magus culture's reaction to said digging is to just put a bullet into you?

Tokiomi isn't stupid enough to do that.

Frankly, to use the "magical Trump" analogy, this is like if Trump and Musk were both people who'd kill you the moment you tried to dig into them and they fully expected you'd put a bullet in them if theybdecided to do the same to you.

[FourthWall]

You're arguing Tokiomi is a gigantic moron, but in the right framework, what Tokiomi did was the work of a master chess player. With that one move, his own asset is stronger, he's advanced his family's goals, he's made a longtime rival into an ally, and he's dropped a massive insult on Kariya, to boot. Then Zouken's next move is to squat on the table and take a shit on the board. He's handed a massive jewel, and all he has to do was cut it, and he'd have ended up rich beyond his widlest dreams. Instead the crazy bastard breaks it.

But we know, as the audience, that the Matou didn't have shit and weren't shit at this point. They were a dead line with squib kids and the only reason they persisted is because Zouken was a tenacious old bastard.

Tokiomi traded Manhattan for a pile of beads, but the beads were worms.

E: And before you say "hindsight", Tokiomi's main expression of the Tohsaka Fuckup Gland is his inability to read or understand people. He does it with Gil, with Kirei, with Zouken, with Kariya. He has the Emotional IQ of a particularly dull rock. Considering Zouken to be magic Trump or Elon Musk is only true so far as Tokiomi being a dumb motherfucker who got taken in by a charlatan.

[Walnut Sparks]

I don't even think you need to investigate the family tree really. It seems obvious the family is really shady.
Byakuya and Kariya's parents? Gone before they even reached their 30s. Shinji's mother, gone. And I'd bet past generations just up and disappeared in the same way.

As I understand it, Zouken is purported to be Byakuya and Kariya's dad, and I can't see why Tokiomi would have reason to suspect otherwise other than that he looks kinda old for that. The missing moms from the last two generations would be worrisome, but even then I'm not completely sure. And do we have any information on what's gone on in previous generations other than that Zouken keeps recurring?

[warellis]

But we know, as the audience, that the Matou didn't have shit and weren't shit at this point. They were a dead line with squib kids and the only reason they persisted is because Zouken was a tenacious old bastard.

Tokiomi traded Manhattan for a pile of beads, but the beads were worms.

And is Tokiomi the "audience?" Does he have knowledge of stuff that he wouldn't normally have access to?

As I understand it, Zouken is purported to be Byakuya and Kariya's dad, and I can't see why Tokiomi would have reason to suspect otherwise other than that he looks kinda old for that. The missing moms from the last two generations would be worrisome, but even then I'm not completely sure. And do we have any information on what's gone on in previous generations other than that Zouken keeps recurring?

Do magi even really investigate other magus family lineages and such though?

I mean considering how insular magi are, wouldn't inquiring into that possibly have caused trouble for Tokiomi?

She doesn't actually show up. Like all the interesting stuff related to Apoc, it's just something that's mentioned in Nasu's Notes.

In Apoc Zouken gave up on life after the Grail was stolen in wwii, so Tokiomi sent Sakura away to the Edelfelt Clan. Rin meanwhile invented a new form of Magecraft using Martial Arts.

So yeah, Apocverse Fuyuki is full of Romcom Shenanigans between Shinobi!Rin and Ojou!Sakura as they fight over an older version of Capsaba!Shirou.

But none of that stuff actually happens in apoc?

And like that, my first desire to read it was smothered in its cradle.

If you want to know specifically:
http://tmdict.com/en/ko.the-three-families

The Tohsaka gave up on the Greater Grail, and now seek a new path in becoming one with the universe with Chinese Kenpou while learning magecraft. The twin-tail daughter of the family might also end up becoming the founder of a “completely new martial arts that combines magecraft and Chinse Kenpou” by the time she becomes a high school student. However, she never imagined that her younger sister who was adopted by distant relatives would come visit her in Japan after becoming a pro-wrestler with unimaginably nice proportions and forming a tag team with a drill-roll-haired girl…!

http://tmdict.com/en/fu.fuyuki

A certain provincial city. In these novels, the Holy Grail War doesn't occur there, of course, and as a result, the mayor of Fuyuki, Himuro-san, doesn't get a pained stomach from that Great Fire Disaster.
And of course, that red-haired boy is living there with his original surname unchanged, but still having a honest and upright personality (as shown in his appearance in Capsule Servant), and likely going through days with a love comedy-like tone, along with a twin-tail magic-fist user and her cheerful little sister who laughs like a high-class young lady.

[Tobias]

But we know, as the audience, that the Matou didn't have shit and weren't shit at this point. They were a dead line with squib kids and the only reason they persisted is because Zouken was a tenacious old bastard.

Tokiomi traded Manhattan for a pile of beads, but the beads were worms.

E: And before you say "hindsight", Tokiomi's main expression of the Tohsaka Fuckup Gland is his inability to read or understand people. He does it with Gil, with Kirei, with Zouken, with Kariya. He has the Emotional IQ of a particularly dull rock. Considering Zouken to be magic Trump or Elon Musk is only true so far as Tokiomi being a dumb motherfucker who got taken in by a charlatan.

It kind of amuses me that someone named “fourth wall” is talking about what we, the audience, know.

oddly appropriate

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

How exactly can Tokiomi do any digging when magus culture's reaction to said digging is to just put a bullet into you?

Tokiomi isn't stupid enough to do that.

Frankly, to use the "magical Trump" analogy, this is like if Trump and Musk were both people who'd kill you the moment you tried to dig into them and they fully expected you'd put a bullet in them if theybdecided to do the same to you.

True, but as others stated, not much would actually be required, and as Second Owner of Fuyuki, he probably was the best placed guy to do any, since he could access city birth records, marriage registries, death certificates, and the like. Also, Zouken would probably be more wary of fighting the guy since he is a decently accomplished fire mage in a friendly magical land.

[Walnut Sparks]

For most mages, mere birth and death records shouldn't be something they have to keep secret, since they have kids, get old and die like everyone else.

In Zouken's case I would just assume that whatever is known to the public is full of lies.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

For most mages, mere birth and death records shouldn't be something they have to keep secret, since they have kids, get old and die like everyone else.

In Zouken's case I would just assume that whatever is known to the public is full of lies.

Even then, there's probably a suspicious pattern if one looked even semi-closely.

[SpoonyViking]

For most mages, mere birth and death records shouldn't be something they have to keep secret, since they have kids, get old and die like everyone else.

Give or take some decades, maybe a century or two.

[eddyak]

@eddyak What do you mean there's no proof Aoi is more likely to pop out supermagi?! It's literally stated in Zero as a trait of the Zenjou, and Tokiomi clearly knew about it, he's the one who told us about it!

Huh. I do not remember this.

Also, where was it stated that Rin wasn't deathly ill and Sakura was simply an accident.

Where was it said that she was?

There were plenty of better, if geographically farther, families Sakura could have been given too. There are PLENTY of old dying families who would LOVE an heir with Sakura's potential and would treat her better. In Tokiomi's defense, I think deep down he may have wanted to see his daughter grow up and check on her much like Rin kind of did before FSN.

I was with you right up until that bit. Again: Zouken. To all outsiders: Basically a model citizen, modal magus, model everything. Nobody outside the Matou knew anything besides "this dude is kinda suspicious." You think Tokiomi, of all people, would've stood around while knowing that the secondary owner of his city was basically a Dead Apostle? Even without throwing Sakura into that mix he'd have marched right up to Zouken's door, blown it off its hinges and probably gotten himself killed because Zouken was apparently some serious magical muscle in his prime, and even now is still a sneaky dangerous bastard.

But yeah, as much as he was a magus, he was a father as well, the reason he gave Sakura away was so that she'd grow up strong.

But we know, as the audience, that the Matou didn't have shit and weren't shit at this point. They were a dead line with squib kids and the only reason they persisted is because Zouken was a tenacious old bastard.

Tokiomi traded Manhattan for a pile of beads, but the beads were worms.

Hindsi- audience knowledge!

E: And before you say "hindsight", Tokiomi's main expression of the Tohsaka Fuckup Gland is his inability to read or understand people. He does it with Gil, with Kirei, with Zouken, with Kariya. He has the Emotional IQ of a particularly dull rock. Considering Zouken to be magic Trump or Elon Musk is only true so far as Tokiomi being a dumb motherfucker who got taken in by a charlatan.

He did get Kariya completely right, and trying to keep up with Gil's whimsy is impossible. If you talk well, he'll backstab his own master, he says one minute he'll punish the mongrels for daring to take the King's treasure, then drops four weapons in the lake and says he won't take them back. He drops a half-arsed Ea on Shirou, then says "well actually you aren't good enough to use Ea on, so ignore what just happened and I'll kill you normally". He's well aware Gil's a dangerous bastard, which is why he goes the boring route and just lets him do whatever he wants.

Do magi even really investigate other magus family lineages and such though?

I mean considering how insular magi are, wouldn't inquiring into that possibly have caused trouble for Tokiomi?

They do, they just have spies and familiars to do that for them, and Zouken doesn't even seem to have any magecraft secrets to spy on. It's not as though he has a desk with documents stamped TOP SECRET. All his secrets are up his sleeve, literally, his magic is all dedicated to keeping himself alive.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

Actually no, he understood Kariya's actions from a magus' perspective, but not from a human one, so he tragically missed the point of Kariya's abandonment of the Matou family and simply could not bring himself to talk to Kariya, thus preventing him from learning of Sakura's fate. That, and he wrongly assumed Kariya did it out of cowardice and because he was just a pathetic magus.

On another note, yes, if he were aware of what Zouken was doing, he would definitely have barged into Matou manner intending to burn it and its master to a crisp because deep down the guy isn't a bad man, but actually somewhat kind and compassionate.

[Altima of the Gates]

How exactly can Tokiomi do any digging when magus culture's reaction to said digging is to just put a bullet into you?

Tokiomi isn't stupid enough to do that.

Frankly, to use the "magical Trump" analogy, this is like if Trump and Musk were both people who'd kill you the moment you tried to dig into them and they fully expected you'd put a bullet in them if theybdecided to do the same to you.

It's more like it's would be more etiquette not to pry in this situation. Tokiomi is the Second Owner, and Zouken is precisely murdering people on his land to keep himself alive under the guy's nose. The issue is that Tokiomi was being fair and even, and expected fair and even from someone who is a heretic.
Meaning he assumed a heck of a lot, didn't really use as many cards as he had on the table. He made a gentleman's deal with a person he thought was despicable at one point from a personal viewpoint. A deal that he isn't the one that has to pay.
Hell, Rin basically saying to Shirou it's the job of the magus to introduce themselves to the Second Owner means that Tokiomi is the one in a position of power over Zouken here. Since partially the reason she was given away is exactly because there are people who don't see potential when they see a gifted person like her, they see research material, means that it's not inconceivable to lie about needing an heir.
And there are plenty of magi who have wasted resources more valuable than her from a magus standpoint before to get to a goal, in this instance, he said himself that Zouken is using the Grail for a goal other than what he sees as the proper path. And somehow thought that being raised by and instructed by heretics would still lead her to where she needed to go, which is just....wut.
Literally pearls before swine, I can't really use a better saying than that.

[warellis]

Actually no, he understood Kariya's actions from a magus' perspective, but not from a human one, so he tragically missed the point of Kariya's abandonment of the Matou family and simply could not bring himself to talk to Kariya, thus preventing him from learning of Sakura's fate. That, and he wrongly assumed Kariya did it out of cowardice and because he was just a pathetic magus.

On another note, yes, if he were aware of what Zouken was doing, he would definitely have barged into Matou manner intending to burn it and its master to a crisp because deep down the guy isn't a bad man, but actually somewhat kind and compassionate.

Kariya had no intention of telling Tokiomi about Sakura's fate. Kariya had ample opportunity and chose not to because deep down, he only considered Sakura a tool to get into Aoi's pants.

Kariya literally cared more about fighting Tokiomi than he ever cared about Sakura.

[Deathhappens]

@eddy: It really isn't hindsight unless you totally swallow the fact that he had kids with someone and somehow doesn't know anything about her traits, but a guy down the street does, which is ludicrous.
Normal people take precautions for things like looking up medical history for hereditary diseases before a child is born. Moreover, he had a genius child from a woman that is from a defunct line, maybe there is something special here. Nope, I'm just blessed, pop out the next kid, don't worry about it. You'd at least have the grace to say, "maybe I ought to think about this a little harder than my wife's baby box is good if lightning struck twice" but he clearly didn't, so I don't have much faith in him in the realm of family planning.
Besides, even if she had been lesser, what examples do you have of lesser children being better off and not just married off against their will or raised in ignorance which doesn't sound good at all? Especially because of all the issues just being associated with that family has for you? Means you are ripe for people who have malacious intent toward the family. It's like a clearly dysfunctional more modern version of aristocracy, yet people try to rationalize it. It's perfectly okay to criticize how a culture works.

Your point about being able to cash in if she sat in on the board doesn't hold water because he knows that the stocks have tanked thanks to that supervillain sabotaging his own prospects. The PTA thing doesn't even matter because that is just tricking some normies while you abuse a child at home. We got several politicans being outed as the days go by for pedophilia or sexual scandals, so that's just being good at fooling people.
Zouken literally refused apprentices that could have saved him, nobody but the incredibly gullible Tohsaka came to him now it's so bad. It's not a guy who currently has prestige, it's a rotted old mummy who happens to still have some land thanks to old technicalities, and people use the command seal system because it works. This is the same guy who saw the grail was tainted and still says, yup, let's still use it. This is also a society that tried a teenager for allowing the gate to be closed even when knowing it had All the World's Evil on the other side. Trying to make the analogy of Zouken being a mogul that's just down and out but still has credit seems faulty, he has the land, but other than that, the clout doesn't seem to be there. Especially because of those decades of telling people to kick rocks when they did come to his doorstep, as he himself ruined his own family behind closed doors..

@Gau - IIRC, a craft essence in GO hinted at her having a sibling. Don't know it's backed up in Case Files or elsewhere.
Even Rin herself basically said the agreement between their families was pretty much paper thin archaic schlock that doesn't mean much other than following tradition for traditions sake.

I believe the point here is that you should blame Tokiomi for the failings that are Tokiomi's, not those of the entire magus culture.

[warellis]

I believe the point here is that you should blame Tokiomi for the failings that are Tokiomi's, not those of the entire magus culture.

And what are Tokiomi's real failings beyond being stupid in ways that literally only an omniscient audience would be able to point out, having information he would never expect in-universe?

Truth be told, I don't see how Tokiomi could've avoided being bamboozled by Zouken really. Especially with the lump of magi culture hanging on him and informing his viewpoints. I mean wasn't Tokiomi the ultratraditional magus type?

I mean Zouken was fooling the Tohsakas all the way back to Nagato from what it looks like.

[Deathhappens]

*shrug*

That depends entirely on how much you're willing to blame him for, really.

[Altima of the Gates]

Kariya had no intention of telling Tokiomi about Sakura's fate. Kariya had ample opportunity and chose not to because deep down, he only considered Sakura a tool to get into Aoi's pants.

Kariya literally cared more about fighting Tokiomi than he ever cared about Sakura.

True to a point, but he also blamed himself wrongly for letting Sakura get into Zouken's clutches even when moving out was the justifiable thing any young person would want to do in his situation when he was younger. Though Tokiomi (and Aoi's) assumption he was just a loser was them dancing to Zouken's tune. Why exactly logically would this guy leave home and then come back all pissed you adopted your little girl to a supposedly swanky rich family? Why would he himself leave such a swanky, cushy family with nothing but the shirt off his back and live the life of a poor mediocre writer? A friend would ask questions about that.

That is the problem, nobody expects them to be all knowing, but since they care for this child, they should ask questions that are reasonable to ask. Kariya did in fact fail due to being just jealous of Tokiomi and letting that overwhelm him, but Tokiomi never bothered to actually ask questions. Neither did Aoi ask why Kariya just stomped off immediately after a yelling match with her about Sakura or the second time where they met in the park and he pretty much revealed his plan. Sure, you should be disturbed your childhood friend and husband are in a deathmatch, but he just blustered about saving your daughter from what was supposed to be a swell setup in your mind, coming back looking like a rotted zombie.

It was said both Tokiomi and Aoi have a distortion inside them that made it so this whole situation was difficult to avoid, but it's equivalent to people raised to believe minorities are stupid, lazy people, you can understand why they don't give them the same respect, but you don't give them a pass on it.
And the story is literally telling you all three adults had their failings and failed Sakura due to them, not just one person.

[forumghost]

It's true, the lot of them are fuckups really.

Aoi is just "I'm a Woman I should stay in the Kitchen and not have opinions" even after Kariya is like "shit lady look how fucked up Matou Magecraft made me."

Kariya is all "GRRRRAAARRRDLEBARRGLE RAAGEEE!!!!!" Whenever Tokiomi shows up and never bothers to explain "FFS Man he's not even teaching her Magic, he's just throwing her in a rapeworm pit all day, he's an evil Vampire"

And Tokiomi is too blinded by his gigantic Hard-On for Magic to pay attention to why Kariya wanted out and instead assumes that he's just a bitch that betrayed his family.

[Altima of the Gates]

I believe the point here is that you should blame Tokiomi for the failings that are Tokiomi's, not those of the entire magus culture.

Here is the thing though. Like I said in the last post, you can understand, but not give someone a pass.
Sure a racist can be insulated from the truth being raised to see things a certain way, but he's still being ignorant.
And we have examples in RL of guys being radically racist to the point of bloody violence, who at the end of the day, end up not only respecting the people he wanted to hurt sometimes minutes before, shaking hands.
In this case, Kariya was as bad if not worse set in his ways, so it's a situation that feeds off ignorance, but it's still ignorance.

@forumghost: Pretty much. Aoi in particular (Iri and Maiya, Sola to a point too) makes me wonder why some say Zero is feminist, because that viewpoint is hilarious.
Aoi is basically a housewife from the 50's, their drama CD sounding like some 50's sitcom.
Which kinda makes that one quote where Takeuchi and Urobuchi says that Sakura is more like Aoi. Sure, she is soft spoken, but she would argue with her man if need be, stubbornly so.

[Toa of Gallifrey]

Speaking solely for the anime, while I don't really agree that Zero is feminist, none of that is portrayed as a good thing. Among Aoi, Iri, Maiya and Sola, only Iri isn't necessarily put on a negative light. I'd argue she has a lot of agency, even if what she can do is limited due to the nature of her role. Aoi's choices are shown as destructive (though not as destructive as Kariya's obsession, which leads him straight to hell), Sola Ui remains unfulfilled and Maiya remains the drone she always was. Admittedly, Maiya is my least favorite character in Zero and I think she could've been much more interesting. I'm sure the LN contradicts some or all of what I've written, but just about every review or analysis of Zero that I've seen praising it as a feminist piece has been for the anime.