Unpopular TM opinions you have

[eddyak]

Literally what? Everything, from the actual culprit to the motivation as well as hinting how the locked rooms were set up, was thoroughly explained with episode 7 already. Episode 8 really concludes the whole saga regarding a certain character and gives said character full closure. It didn't cop out any of the mystery parts at all.
That said there were a few translation problems that made solving the mysteries as an English speaker harder.

Ah. I guess it was exaggerated then.

The thing about the Feast of Kings though is that (intentionally or not) the narrative frames Gil and Alex as being in the right, by having Saber's only counterargument to them being *impotent mewing noises*

When the story has one character act like a six year old that was told she can't have ice-cream until she's had her beans, that character is usually taken as being the one 'in the wrong'.

Iskander drops his own diss track, then drops mic and walks out before Eminem Saber can de-sweat her palm spaghetti.

Again, there was some weird wobbling of character, in that Saber didn't brick-wall her way through their arguments- "You're tyrants!" "Of course we're tyrants, that's how we became heroes!" "Then why am I still sitting here listening to you idiots? Get out, and don't let the invisible sword hit you in the arse on the way out!", but it works because Iskander's perceptive & cunning enough to find a flaw, worry it until she has something to think about and then leave before she can pull herself together enough for a response.

He admits to being selfish, not to being "a bad guy". And the context within which he says this is in direct contrast to Saber's utterly selfless act- the same "King above his people vs the People over their King" dichotomy discussed above.

Tyrant, remember.

As for the latter , to him, world conquest IS an adventure, because all the morals and ethics of his time told him that that's just what kings do. In that light, he's no more or less of a monster than any other Servant that waged wars in their lifetime, Arturia included.

Completely untrue, because every other ruler will have actually had reasons for those wars. Saber waged wars because Britain had been invaded twelve times, they were all sick of being on the receiving end, and made sure it would stop. Vlad warred because his territories were being invaded. So on and so forth. I'm not trying to kill the product-of-their-time argument, I'm saying that even for his time, he was a particularly shitty king to have exist if you weren't already one of his citizens.

[Deathhappens]

Ah. I guess it was exaggerated then.


Iskander drops his own diss track, then drops mic and walks out before Eminem Saber can de-sweat her palm spaghetti.

Again, there was some weird wobbling of character, in that Saber didn't brick-wall her way through their arguments- "You're tyrants!" "Of course we're tyrants, that's how we became heroes!" "Then why am I still sitting here listening to you idiots? Get out, and don't let the invisible sword hit you in the arse on the way out!", but it works because Iskander's perceptive & cunning enough to find a flaw, worry it until she has something to think about and then leave before she can pull herself together enough for a response.


Tyrant, remember.


Completely untrue, because every other ruler will have actually had reasons for those wars. Saber waged wars because Britain had been invaded twelve times, they were all sick of being on the receiving end, and made sure it would stop. Vlad warred because his territories were being invaded. So on and so forth. I'm not trying to kill the product-of-their-time argument, I'm saying that even for his time, he was a particularly shitty king to have exist if you weren't already one of his citizens.

Considering the vast majority of the people he invaded were less than a generation ago part of an army sent to conquer his homeland, not at all, and (with some exceptions) most of the people he ruled actively supported his campaign. More impressively, at least some of the people he invaded actually welcomed his arrival, with the Egyptians first and foremost. There's no doubt atrocities were commited over the course of his campaigns, but we have cause to believe that he was actually well above the other kings of his era in terms of how he treated his people. And there's a LOT of other rulers in Fate that waged purely offensive wars for one reason or another- Nero, Caesar, Ivan the Terrible, Napoleon, Nobu... Artoria herself, if the myths are to be believed, waged several offensive wars against the barbarian tribes surrounding her kingdom- sure, it was in the interest of defending it to the end, but so was Alexander's conquest, at least at the outset.

[Walnut Sparks]

but so was Alexander's conquest, at least at the outset.

Was that part of his actual motivation, or even an excuse? I don't remember it from the telecast and I never got around to the LN.

[asterism42]

FWIW Richard in SF, another king who waged war for war's sake, straight up admits that he's a bad king and a bad person and Ayaka's an idiot for thinking otherwise.

[eddyak]

Was that part of his actual motivation, or even an excuse? I don't remember it from the telecast and I never got around to the LN.

Noooope.

He finds Waver picking up a book about him, Waver asks why he did it all, Isk literally goes "lol man the hell do i know, motives are for historians to make up after the fact".

[Dullahan]

based and hegelpilled

[Walnut Sparks]

Noooope.

He finds Waver picking up a book about him, Waver asks why he did it all, Isk literally goes "lol man the hell do i know, motives are for historians to make up after the fact".

I suspected that was it.

See, we can't cite the real Alexander and his motivations (or historical speculation thereon) when discussing the character of Zero Rider. Safest position is that everything in TM works relating to history or mythology is an unknown unless/until an official work covers it.

[LJ3]

The one complaint about how part of Zero is celebrating selfishness has me befuddled.

Like, no??

[RacingeR]

I think both Umineko and Higurashi would have benefited from being more self aware of its own silliness rather than being completely serious all the time. I mean it's hard to take a show seriously when you have characters making faces

like this:

Spoiler:

or this:

Spoiler:

in essentially every episode (which seems to be a thing in the VNs as well).


I'm also surprised how many folks consider the latter as one of the best horror anime out there as it's mostly just shock value mixed with characters making over-the-top goofy expressions that's not unlike what's present in stuff like Mirai Nikki. But then again, good horror anime are as rare as a good Michael Bay film. Don't think anything will ever top Perfect Blue in that regard.

The Higurashi anime is extremely bad and trashy despite how much people talk it up, it cut out a lot (as in, a lot) of content, introduced a lot of shock value for shock value's sake iirc (though the original VNs did have a bunch of that too), and never managed to get anything near to what it was adapting.

The original VNs had a lot more light-hearted and breathing sections, especially in the beginning of each episode, were actually much better paced, etc. They are probably the best psychological horror pieces I've ever read (though admittedly I don't read much horror), and I highly recommend them if you're able to stomach the ugly-ass sprites. Regarding Umineko, I won't comment anymore (if you were able to somehow read through EP 6 then you have an higher tolerance for boredom and a dude talking to himself in circles for all of eternity than I do tbh), but I'll point out the anime adaptation is also notoriously bad and inaccurate.



More on-topic, regarding the Banquet of the Kings, I also thought (and iirc have said repeatedly) it was an awful scene, and it was badly mishandled by uro on all sides. Saber is uncharacteristically meek, doesn't argument back at all which is incomprehensible, had no real reason to listen to them, the scene framing was also very bad since it obviously was in favor of Iskander's side, and didn't make any effort to hide it or introduce any sort of ambiguity. I am nowhere near being a big fan of Saber but even then I still thought it was very disrespectful on her character, and quite indicative of Uro himself having an issue with her.

Personally I always thought it was an artifact of Uro still getting his bearings on writing characters in general, as well as a strong tendency to edge for edge's sake, something that Zero has in spades. The scene basically represents all the issues it has, and I find it hard to understand why people (other than the archetypical zero-anime-only fan who likes things just because they're edgy) like it, but well, that's how opinions are.

Another thing that I want to add about the scene is that... well, it's also a prime representative of the big issue I have with non-nasu writers, in that when they try to write nasuverse works none of them seems to be able to quite get "it", they always seem to have issues melding with the nasuverse, going from actual good writers like Uro to absolute hacks like Higashide. I guess my unpopular opinion for this post is that no matter how hard they try, the secondary writers always produce much inferior nasuverse works compared to the big mushroom himself.

Damn. Gilgamesh was right.

[warellis]

What I find weird about the Banquet of Kings is that people think Gil & Alexander won when Gil outright tells Saber that her method of kingship was just as valid:

https://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/i...ull_Text#Act_6

Yet, Saber could not simply treat Alexander’s words as a joke, either. There would come a time, where she would force him to take these words back – such words bothered Saber like a thorn in her side.

“Ignore him, Saber. All you have to do is follow in your own beliefs.”

This time, the person who interjected was Archer, who had been mocking him for all this time. Hearing such strange words of encouragement, Saber answered icily.

“You were mocking me moments ago, yet you want to flatter me now, Archer?”

“Of course! Your way of kingship is the only way, without a fraction of an error. Of course, to your frail body, it must be such a great burden.

Such bitterness… such tangled webs… I couldn’t help but to sincerely wish to comfort you.”

Proper outer appearance, a serious voice, yet there was still an unlimited amount of lust and maliciousness hidden within his expression and tone.


As long as this golden Servant existed before her eyes, Saber would never have a single moment of confusion. Unlike Rider, who was someone she could communicate in words with, Archer was only an unforgivable enemy to her.


“Continue on your path of righteousness, Saber, and clown along the way. I like it. Saber, make me happy, and maybe I’ll reward you with the Holy Grail?”


The white jade goblet shattered in Archer’s hands.


“Rider has already left, the banquet is long over – Archer, leave now, or draw your sword.”


Though it was invisible, Saber’s waving sword nonetheless unleashed a powerful pressure. Archer, with broken goblet in hand, had no discernible change in expression. Either he was exceptionally brave or exceptionally stupid. Only one of the aforementioned possibilities.


“Oy, oy. Did you know, countless nations have been destroyed because of this cup? Ah, whatever, punishing you is pointless either way – punishing a clown like you is not fitting behavior for a king.”


“Quiet. I’ll warn you only once. Next time, I’ll cut through you mercilessly!”


Ignoring Saber’s warning, Archer smiled as he stood up.


“Try harder, O King of Knights. Sometimes, I think you’re still pretty cute.”


As his last words faded, Archer vanished as he turned to spirit form. As if awaking from a dream, the courtyard, without the golden light shining upon it, contained only emptiness.

[Inuhanyou]

Having gil, who is attempting to make her suffer say those words isnt exactly telling readers/viewers that her way is "valid", especially when the end result does not once make that clear.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

I'd say the only reason Saber lost is that she couldn't muster up the presence of mind to actually defend her ideal of kingship, mostly because Iskandar hit at her own insecurities, and Gil's approval means next to nothing, at least for Saber.

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Dammit, got beat to it.

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I think a post-Fate/UBW Saber could have held her own and possibly struck back.

[Inuhanyou]

I'd say the only reason Saber lost is that she couldn't muster up the presence of mind to actually defend her ideal of kingship, mostly because Iskandar hit at her own insecurities, and Gil's approval means next to nothing, at least for Saber.

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Dammit, got beat to it.

The first part of your statement actually is the entire problem. That says to the one consuming said information that she lost. "The only reason she lost is because the events portrayed her as the person who lost the argument". Yes, that's the problem.

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I think a post-Fate/UBW Saber could have held her own and possibly struck back.

That isnt the issue, specifically because this is not Arturia who has had her character arc resolved in Fate route, this is before that.

The issue is that this is Zero Arturia. The one who would fall prey to these kinds of mental attacks, this is why it is even more important for the 'narrative' itself to portray things as ambiguous as opposed to implying she was actually wrong. because only one part of her value system was wrong, and that was the part that was dooming her. But she would have been one who was selfless regardless of the core problem she has, which is what the narrative of Zero is trying to tell her is wrong.

IE her path of kingship was not wrong, nor was her ideal of wanting to be a king who cared about her people. But wanting to erase her accomplishments because she regretted things was the issue. The problem is Urobuchi is trying to say implicitly to the viewer that she is wrong in general, about everything, instead of simply letting the viewer make their own decision with the characters saying their own pieces about it.

[Dullahan]

if saber was such a good king then why is she dead?

checkmate atheists

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

Can definitely agree that Uro was trying too hard to portray Artoria's whole thing as wrong, which definitely rubbed me the wrong way upon first watch, and honestly, I chose to ignore Uro's message of the idea of the selfless, perfect king being wrong all the time.

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if saber was such a good king then why is she dead?

checkmate atheists

Anarcho-syndicalist communes.

[Menwearpink]

For a non-popular opinion I think Higashide is better at Fate stuff than Uro.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

You have said this before, so no real surprise.

One thing I will admit about Higashide is that perhaps left to more of his own devices and not pigeonholed into certain things (like Jeanne and Sieg) by Nasu, perhaps Apo could have been better.

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Then again, I haven't really looked at his GO stuff, so I could be wrong.

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Also, Uro did Spartacus way better than Higashide.

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Considering the vast majority of the people he invaded were less than a generation ago part of an army sent to conquer his homeland, not at all, and (with some exceptions) most of the people he ruled actively supported his campaign. More impressively, at least some of the people he invaded actually welcomed his arrival, with the Egyptians first and foremost. There's no doubt atrocities were commited over the course of his campaigns, but we have cause to believe that he was actually well above the other kings of his era in terms of how he treated his people. And there's a LOT of other rulers in Fate that waged purely offensive wars for one reason or another- Nero, Caesar, Ivan the Terrible, Napoleon, Nobu... Artoria herself, if the myths are to be believed, waged several offensive wars against the barbarian tribes surrounding her kingdom- sure, it was in the interest of defending it to the end, but so was Alexander's conquest, at least at the outset.

I always viewed TM Iskandar as an embodiment of the ideals the real Alexander espoused later in his reign, especially once he conquered Persia. Moreover, he did ultimately leave behind a rich cultural legacy that rippled out to influence the course of Eurasian history for centuries to come.

[asterism42]

if saber was such a good king then why is she dead?

checkmate atheists

I mean

Gil died because he was too good at being a king

[Menwearpink]

I mean Urobuchi made Spartacus.

one of the few good things he’s done in Fate. I’ll give him credit for that. P-cus is a good boy.

[Menwearpink]

I mean Urobuchi made Spartacus.

one of the few good things he’s done in Fate. I’ll give him credit for that. P-cus is a good boy.