Unpopular TM opinions you have

[Byegod]

For the longest time we basically only ever get information that's absolutely necessary to understand the story at hand. The problem with Character Material is that it only talks about individual people and things we've already seen, and doesn't expand anything or give any wider exposition other than re-examination. It doesn't help that no TM work has been truly episodic, even KnK, and that entire laws of metaphysics change between the different sort of settings, leaving us as an example unsure whether some rules of Fate still apply in Extra or not. We'll never know because it's not important, but if somebody wanted to write a story where it is important, then that's damning because their fic will devolve into people arguing about it.

It's interesting to me that the variable metaphysics thing is a backdoor of the author's, and the scarcity of information would be considered a narrative virtue elsewhere, but both winds up actively damaging the work's cultural value in this way, making sure no one other than Nasu can actually write the Nasuverse. It's interesting that Rinspeak is a local phenomenon of the work that is designed for obsoletion outside of it.

Yeah I get what you mean, like I'm reminded how we know bout foundations but not really that much, or how we are often given numbers for circuits or mana yet no context for those numbers.

[fumei]

how we are often given numbers for circuits or mana yet no context for those numbers.

This isn't really a thing that you should look at and be like "what does that MEAN?" though. Pretty much every time Nasu throws out a number for stuff like circuits or energy levels or numerical values for stats and such, it's pretty much never "this is the exact number for this thing", but rather just a means of comparison. For stats, A is 40 above E "in value" to show that it's magnitudes higher, not that it's literally 5 times the value of E.

[Ratman]

How many circuits does Ciel have?

How does Roa cast Magecraft?

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How do Nrvnqsr and Wallachia use Magecraft entirely lacking anything resembling a human body?

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If Magecraft is a power granted to mankind, shouldn't it interact with the enemy of mankind nature of Dead Apostles?

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How exactly does the entire teaching Etherlite to Akiha work? Isn't Etherlite Magecraft, while Akiha's plundering is completely different? Isn't Etherlite a highly specialized tool while Akiha has no formal training in Magecraft? Shouldn't Sion get onto that before she teaches Akiha anything? Can -anybody- use Etherlite? Can Shiki use Etherlite to activate MEoDP?

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If Apostle immunity to NPs springs from their nature of denial of human history, shouldn't they be immune to Seventh Holy Scripture, which is made of biblical apocrypha, which is exactly as much history as Amakusa's tattoos?

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Lest I forget, is Zelretch as a Dead Apostle affected by strong human order?

[Ratman]

Why does Zealot's NP work on the Apostle who summoned her?

[Leftovers]

Because the NP rejection clause pertains to humans using them.

[SpoonyViking]

Well, but they technically were made by presumed FGO fans and incorporate FGO-original content.

Duh

In that case, this very forum has a variety of good FGO fics.

[Bookworm Luke]

For the longest time we basically only ever get information that's absolutely necessary to understand the story at hand. The problem with Character Material is that it only talks about individual people and things we've already seen, and doesn't expand anything or give any wider exposition other than re-examination. It doesn't help that no TM work has been truly episodic, even KnK, and that entire laws of metaphysics change between the different sort of settings, leaving us as an example unsure whether some rules of Fate still apply in Extra or not. We'll never know because it's not important, but if somebody wanted to write a story where it is important, then that's damning because their fic will devolve into people arguing about it.

It's interesting to me that the variable metaphysics thing is a backdoor of the author's, and the scarcity of information would be considered a narrative virtue elsewhere, but both winds up actively damaging the work's cultural value in this way, making sure no one other than Nasu can actually write the Nasuverse. It's interesting that Rinspeak is a local phenomenon of the work that is designed for obsoletion outside of it.

The early solo works by Nasu have internal consistency, because it was all by one person with the intention of universe building.

The derivative works afterward that Nasu did not helm really made the universe more entangled and sometimes contradictory.

For example, the Servant Voyager. FSN explicitly said machines cannot be a Heroic Spirit, yet here we are.

[LeadDemon]

For example, the Servant Voyager. FSN explicitly said machines cannot be a Heroic Spirit, yet here we are.

I think you're misremembering.

"Haven't you been taught that any humans, animals, or machines that leave any great achievements behind get removed from the ring of reincarnation and sublimate into beings of higher rank?
Heroes are that sort of beings.
To put it simply, they have been worshipped and made into artificial gods."

The actual Heroic Spirits being worshipped will be the "greatest weapon of that era". However, for the weapon to become a Heroic Spirit in this case, it must harbour a soul.

Machines have always been fine if they have souls.

[Comun]

Also, all properties are supervised by Nasu, as bad of a supervisor as he is.

[Bookworm Luke]

I think you're misremembering.

Machines have always been fine if they have souls.

I am aware of those.

Those just highlight the improbability. Machines can become gods if worshiped. For them to become Heroic Spirits, they must have a soul to start with.

I don't know how NASA installed a soul into a 1970's computer.

We can retroactively round this up all we can, but I doubt this was Nasu's original intention. A lot of EXTRA and GO stuff are going beyond the premise of FSN to be frank.

[Leftovers]

It carries ~humanity's soul~ in the golden record, quote this post.

[pinetree]

I'm fairly sure that "artificial gods" there refers to the nature of Heroic Spirits, not to actual gods and Divine Spirits.

Besides, Tsukumogamis are a thing so inanimate objects gaining souls is not even a new concept, mythologically.

[Bookworm Luke]

I'm fairly sure that "artificial gods" there refers to the nature of Heroic Spirits, not to actual gods and Divine Spirits.

Besides, Tsukumogamis are a thing so inanimate objects gaining souls is not even a new concept, mythologically.

I am talking about the ascending and taking out of the cycle of reincarnation part.

The original quote is referring to machines and animals can become gods in folklore due to worship, and Heroic Spirits are something similar.

For a machine to become a Heroic Spirit, it has to embody a concept and has a soul. Basically impossible.

The intent of the original Q & A was basically Nasu telling you "it's nearly impossible for modern day people and technology to become Heroic Spirits".

[pinetree]

For a machine to become a Heroic Spirit, it has to embody a concept and has a soul. Basically impossible.

I don't really disagree with that, just that the machine would need those to begin with, rather than them being something that is acquired. See Danzou, who started as just a puppet, and yet she developed free will and/or a soul in life.
I honestly think this is very in line with how FSN initially defined Heroic Spirits and that Voyager fits it even better. They have left a mark in human history and became something more than just famous machines.

[Bookworm Luke]

I don't really disagree with that, just that the machine would need those to begin with, rather than them being something that is acquired. See Danzou, who started as just a puppet, and yet she developed free will and/or a soul in life.
I honestly think this is very in line with how FSN initially defined Heroic Spirits and that Voyager fits it even better. They have left a mark in human history and became something more than just famous machines.

I am just ranting according to the thread title.

I don't doubt there's 999,999,999,999 ways we can say this stuff is all kosher to Fate lore.

I just feel it's against the spirit of the original story and all the Q&A stuff Nasu generated.

[AsGryffynn]

I think you're misremembering.





Machines have always been fine if they have souls.

That's some Pietro Polendina level of engineering right there... or he's just an allegory for the Little Prince.

[You]

How many circuits does Ciel have?

How does Roa cast Magecraft?

- - - Updated - - -

How do Nrvnqsr and Wallachia use Magecraft entirely lacking anything resembling a human body?

- - - Updated - - -

If Magecraft is a power granted to mankind, shouldn't it interact with the enemy of mankind nature of Dead Apostles?

- - - Updated - - -

How exactly does the entire teaching Etherlite to Akiha work? Isn't Etherlite Magecraft, while Akiha's plundering is completely different? Isn't Etherlite a highly specialized tool while Akiha has no formal training in Magecraft? Shouldn't Sion get onto that before she teaches Akiha anything? Can -anybody- use Etherlite? Can Shiki use Etherlite to activate MEoDP?

- - - Updated - - -

If Apostle immunity to NPs springs from their nature of denial of human history, shouldn't they be immune to Seventh Holy Scripture, which is made of biblical apocrypha, which is exactly as much history as Amakusa's tattoos?

- - - Updated - - -

Lest I forget, is Zelretch as a Dead Apostle affected by strong human order?

1. Doesn't matter everything is in circuit ranks now.
2. Like anyone else?
3. As long as you can generate magical energy and have circuits that can attach to a foundation you can use magecraft. TATARI as a system is produced with an RM. I don't think we've actually seen the TATARI system use magecraft, but Wallachia is just a DA.
4.

Revelation : B
A Skill that hears of "the voice from the Heavens" and performs the most suitable of actions.
While "Instinct" is a sixth sense for combat purpose, Revelation conforms to all matters in regards of achieving a goal (such as selecting the most suitable road for travel route).
Solomon had only ever received one Revelation, but based on that he had established the phenomena operation technique--that is, magic--that even an ordinary person could perform. (Until then, magic had been a work only for those related to the gods.)

Changed from those related to gods to anyone. Don't see how this is just a gift to humankind.
5. In Red Demon God they say the source of a Ma's power and the hunters who fight them with yin yang techniques (magecraft) come from the same source and therefore they have a fair fight with the same rules. Also Akiha is able to make Shikigami, a magecraft technique. We see a magic circuitless Azaka being able to use magecraft through her ESP. Therefore it's likely that you can use weird circuits to perform magecraft, but it'll be limited.
6. Like left said, it's only NPs used by living humans that they deny. The Seventh isn't a NP. Amakusa using his hands would wipe a DA easy.

[Byegod]

I am talking about the ascending and taking out of the cycle of reincarnation part.

The original quote is referring to machines and animals can become gods in folklore due to worship, and Heroic Spirits are something similar.

For a machine to become a Heroic Spirit, it has to embody a concept and has a soul. Basically impossible.

The intent of the original Q & A was basically Nasu telling you "it's nearly impossible for modern day people and technology to become Heroic Spirits".

Im not as offended at the idea mainly cause i find the idea of modern day people being unable stupid but I can understand why you personally dislike it.

[Ratman]

.

This was of course just throwing out dumb questions off the top of my head about things people might not know/ask between franchises because they are not actually stated, and might assume before writing original content, but thanks for replying to all of them. Didn't know some of those. Dust of Osiris at least has Etherlite as a move, and a lot of Wallachia's moves are also Etherlite-looking, which always stood out to me as a bit weird.

I look forward to you answering 6) again when Ciel is in FGO and uses Seventh as her NP.

[the god of world-0]

This was of course just throwing out dumb questions off the top of my head about things people might not know/ask between franchises because they are not actually stated, and might assume before writing original content, but thanks for replying to all of them. Didn't know some of those. Dust of Osiris at least has Etherlite as a move, and a lot of Wallachia's moves are also Etherlite-looking, which always stood out to me as a bit weird.

I look forward to you answering 6) again when Ciel is in FGO and uses Seventh as her NP.

Well, he has like, 500.000.000 years to think about it.