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Thread: Unpopular TM opinions you have

  1. #7901
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Comun's Avatar
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    Why are we calling him Food?

  2. #7902
    I told 'em, I told 'em. Bugrit! eddyak's Avatar
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    Because he delicious.
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  3. #7903
    Quote Originally Posted by AAM1232 View Post
    The whole context is this, a TL I asked for from Fallacies:

    Sure it's difficult to parse through her TL, but nothing there suggests that the time period Rin gives is anything like a hard limit on from when you can summon HSs. And I'm not sure why my lack of knowledge of JP is suddenly more important than her TL and thoughts as to why she TLed it that way. But sure, Food/Bookworm Luke's interpretation is totally logical and doesn't fall apart even if you assume that Rin is right here. It's not like he provided anything other than "Nuh uh, your TL is terrible".
    Calling falla's translation better than mirror moon's requires comparing the translation with the original text. If you can't make that call and don't argue for it, don't make it a point in your argument. Using either translation, arguing that "regardless of era" means "heroes can be summoned from anywhere in time" requires this reading of the sentence:
    fact
    そうして年代を問わず
    observation
    近くは百年前、遠くは神代の頃から
    fact
    英霊は召喚された
    . Chopping it up and joining the ends doesn't make for evidence. As Comun noted, there are other avenues to argue that what Rin recounts is her observation (from records of grail wars before the 4th? Also the past tense in 不可能を可能にした;使い魔に固定した;英霊は召喚された arises by referring to what the Grail's creation made possible); the context of the lines in the prologue is why it is assumed this information in a character's internal narration is meant to be taken as genuine setting information being conveyed to the reader instead of their own educated guess or opinion - even more so when everything in the context apart from that one excerpt is taken as fact.

  4. #7904
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors AAM1232's Avatar
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    Which then clashes with the later statement in the next 2 lines that Heroic Spirits of every era and nation get revived for the HGW. So "every era" clearly doesn't mean what it is supposed to mean. So every era = every era, except for that line where it means 1900 AD to AoG time. This isn't logical or even reasonable, especially if you take Rin at face value and decide that stuff like self contradiction in the middle of an explanation is OK.

  5. #7905
    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    Why are we calling him Food?
    He basically confessed to sockpuppeting a few pages back so

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Comun View Post
    Can we drop this discussion? If we want to be really nitpicky about one sentence, Rin's line is not relevant to what you're talking about and here's why:

    そうして年代を問わず、近くは百年前、遠くは神代の頃から英霊は召喚された
    Past tense. It was never stating a rule, it was stating precedent. Rin was never claiming to know the full limits of the system, so she makes clear her thoughts are pieced together by observing the Heroic Spirits summoned before.
    Also I love you, thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mcjon01 View Post
    Ugh cokesakto no no no
    Quote Originally Posted by Neir View Post
    your ability to be wrong about literally everything you post is truly astounding. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, but you haven't been right once.
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    The gay pics were the most entertaining thing going on in this discussion.

  6. #7906
    Quote Originally Posted by AAM1232 View Post
    Which then clashes with the later statement in the next 2 lines that Heroic Spirits of every era and nation get revived for the HGW. So "every era" clearly doesn't mean what it is supposed to mean. So every era = every era, except for that line where it means 1900 AD to AoG time. This isn't logical or even reasonable, especially if you take Rin at face value and decide that stuff like self contradiction in the middle of an explanation is OK.
    It's not logical for "every" to refer to the conditions set up two sentences ago?

    "And regardless of era, heroic spirits were summoned - the nearest/latest from a hundred years ago, the farthest/oldest from the age of the gods.
    Seven heroic spirits respectively obey seven Masters, protecting their own Master and eliminating the enemies.
    ...heroes from every era and region are revived in the present day to kill each other and vie for supremacy.
    That is why this ritual is called the Holy Grail War."

    This is the same issue of reading a line outside of context. "Regardless of era" and "every era" don't stand on their own, they are qualified by the temporal parameters set in their immediate context. Consider: "No matter their age, people as young as 10 and as old as 110 years old enjoy our product. People of all ages are entertained by...." for an example of how all-inclusive words are context-sensitive.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The most remarkable thing in that passage isn't that people from every era=the future can be summoned, it's that even people from deep antiquity can be brought into the present day. That's the thrust of "every era".

  7. #7907
    The Plesioth Hip Check of life Deathhappens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AAM1232 View Post
    Anything can go for Servants has been a selling point of the franchise, so why on Earth are you all complaining about GO Servants or Voyager having random shit despite being based on HF? Maybe you could try to elaborate better rather than twist away from what I was discussing?
    Except "anything goes for Servants" has literally never been the case, as every single Holy Grail War we've read about had at least one example of "someone who shouldn't have been able to be summoned/become a Servant".
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafflesiac View Post
    ladies, he's single
    Quote Originally Posted by OverMaster View Post
    Yeah, but that's because he's got more issues than National Geographic.
    Quote Originally Posted by I3uster View Post
    It's like with centaur girls, you're fucking a horse. Sure the human part is the one that moans but your dick is in the horse, no way around it.
    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    boytoy angst > fulfilling life of misanthropic extremist environmentalism
    Once and always and nevermore.

  8. #7908
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors AAM1232's Avatar
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    Not really? Apart from this then running into the existence of Archer, as deduced by Rin and Shirou, with the latter even calling him a HS along with Saber, something I completely forgot about, it also ignores that Nasu himself was considering modern weapons as possible HS in the Comptiq Q&A when people asked him if those who used modern weapons could become HS.

    It also ignores Rin's line from Day 3 about what can qualify as HS, where she states machines can be HS if they meet certain requirments.

    Spoiler:

    「違うわ。人間であれ動物であれ機械であれ、偉大な功績を残すと輪廻の輪から外されて、一段階上に昇華する って話、聞いたことない?


    "No. Haven't you been taught that any humans, animals, or machines that leave any great achievements behind get removed from the ring of reincarnation and sublimate into beings of higher rank?
    Heroes are that sort of beings.
    To put it simply, they have been worshipped and made into artificial gods."


    All to say FGO has retconned stuff from FSN, by deciding that only this version of the line is acceptable. Especially when latest and oldest aren't even explicit readings of that line, as explained in the TL I quoted.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Except "anything goes for Servants" has literally never been the case, as every single Holy Grail War we've read about had at least one example of "someone who shouldn't have been able to be summoned/become a Servant".
    Considering the amount of liberties taken with Servant depictions since FSN, anything can go is a fine description as to what can be and what makes a Servant.

  9. #7909
    The Plesioth Hip Check of life Deathhappens's Avatar
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    That's a metanarrative perspective, and it's exactly what people are complaining about. "Officially" all these Servants were exceptions, rule-breakers, cosmic coincidence one-off's. But when their numbers keep increasing and eventually threaten to outnumber "orthodox" Servants, it becomes a farce with the audience as its victim.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafflesiac View Post
    ladies, he's single
    Quote Originally Posted by OverMaster View Post
    Yeah, but that's because he's got more issues than National Geographic.
    Quote Originally Posted by I3uster View Post
    It's like with centaur girls, you're fucking a horse. Sure the human part is the one that moans but your dick is in the horse, no way around it.
    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    boytoy angst > fulfilling life of misanthropic extremist environmentalism
    Once and always and nevermore.

  10. #7910
    The argument for why there "can't" be heroic spirits in the modern era is based on those Nasu statements: no one's deeds are special/inimitable enough, and even the things that make them special (weapons, machines, etc) need to have a soul to become heroic spirits. These statements constitute the logic of what can by its nature or deeds ascend to the status of a heroic spirit in this setting. Archer is an exception in terms of qualification, because his status as a counter guardian who made a pact to enter Alaya's service bypasses the requirements for a soul to be enshrined on its own merit as a heroic spirit - all counter guardians are heroic spirits, but heroic spirits "proper" have become so on the basis of their own legends; this is what "becoming a heroic spirit refers to". If a machine -or even a person - were to come up in TM as a heroic spirit that is famous, unique in nature or deeds, and has a soul, that would be an exception in terms of temporality as a heroic spirit enshrined in the present.

    It's better to acknowledge that Nasu changes his mind sometimes on how things work even if he doesn't explicitly insert clauses, retroactively reframe them, or say that with Chaldea's summoning machine anything goes, than to twist the text to accommodate for what came afterwards.
    Last edited by Leftovers; July 3rd, 2020 at 06:22 AM.

  11. #7911
    HSTP 500 Internal S ervant  Error aldeayeah's Avatar
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    Only a small mind can lock itself into a prison of its own devise.

    That's the true philosophy of the Lying Adult.
    As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero.

  12. #7912
    Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes).
    Because you are too young. Or too stupid. Or both.

  13. #7913
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors AAM1232's Avatar
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    I'm not the one blindly accepting the lines in prologue as true with the hard limit on summons to claim everything else since about that topic is a retcon. And sure, Nasu changes his mind, that's already true since the existence of Prototype amd the mess with Grain/True Ether. Doesn't mean this is a great example since by that line of thought it's very visibly contradicted by Rin and Shirou separately and it isn't really presented as an exception but as something improbable, yet fitting the facts. Unless in story retcons are also a thing Nasu dabbles in for fun.

  14. #7914
    You'd have to be blind to not see the arguments for it. Thanks for the concern though.

  15. #7915
    The Plesioth Hip Check of life Deathhappens's Avatar
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    I don't know why we're even arguing about this when we have Nasu's admission in black on white about changing his mind on Archer being able to project Excalibur when he saw the animation they'd made in Extra for it. He's never exactly hidden that he goes for "whatever's cool" over consistency.

    Which to be honest isn't even a bad thing in moderation and when done with the intent to really tell a good story; sure, some people bitched about Apocrypha and Prillya but they were generally im the minority for that. It was GO's leap into obvious corporate production and rapid-fire Servant development that balooned the problem to what it is now. It's really hard to defend whatever the newest "exception" is, even when it's something genuinely cool, when you know it comes with a hefty pricetag attached.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafflesiac View Post
    ladies, he's single
    Quote Originally Posted by OverMaster View Post
    Yeah, but that's because he's got more issues than National Geographic.
    Quote Originally Posted by I3uster View Post
    It's like with centaur girls, you're fucking a horse. Sure the human part is the one that moans but your dick is in the horse, no way around it.
    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    boytoy angst > fulfilling life of misanthropic extremist environmentalism
    Once and always and nevermore.

  16. #7916
    OK, don't say I don't love you. I dug through the god-awful script dump to get you the full scene to give you the context:

    Rin monologue starts:
    率直に言おう。
     サーヴァントとは、過去の英雄 (Heroes of the Past) そのものである
     神話、伝説、寓話、歴史。(Myths, legends, fables, history)
     真偽問わず、伝承の中 (within tradition/lore) で活躍し確固たる存在となった
    “超人”たちを英雄という。
    Basically, Rin is anchoring you that Servants are characters of the past in myth and lore.

     
    人々の間で永久不変となった英雄は、死後、人間とい
    うカテゴリーから除外されて別の存在に昇格する。

     ……奇跡を行い、人々を救い、偉業を成し遂げた人間
    は、生前、ないし死後に英雄として祭り上げられる。
     そうして祭り上げられた彼らは、死後に英霊と呼ばれ
    る精霊に昇格し、人間サイドの守護者になる。
    A hero needs to die to become a Heroic Spirit.

     
    これは実在の人物であろうが神話上の人物であろうが
    構わない。
     英雄を作り出すのは人々の想念だ。

     こうであってほしい、と想う心が彼らを形取り、彼ら
    を実在のモノとして祭り上げる。
     そこに真偽は関係ない。
     ただ伝説として確かな知名度と信仰心さえあれば彼ら
    は具現化する。
    A Heroic Spirit doesn't need to be real.

     
    人間が生み出した究極の理想、人間の中でもっとも優
    れた人間。

     それが英雄であり、英霊である。

     そして当然、人間以上である彼らは、決して人間では
    操れない。
     魔術師は彼らの力の一端を借り受け、その真似事をこ
    なす程度に留まるのが常だ。
     英霊そのものを呼び出して使役する、なんて事は決し
    て出来はしない。
    Heroic Spirits are usually borrowed/channeled but not summoned.

     
    が、聖杯はその不可能を可能にした。
     本来人間の手におえぬ英霊をまるごと召喚し、あまつ
    さえマスターに仕える使い魔に固定した。
     そのデタラメさは、まさに聖杯が万能である事の証で
    もある。
    Binding Heroic Spirits as Servants is a testament of the Holy Grail being omnipotent.

     
    そうして年代を問わず、近くは百年前、遠くは神代の
    頃から英霊は召喚された。
     七人の英霊はそれぞれ七人のマスターに従い、おのが
    マスターを守護し、敵であるマスターを駆逐する。

     ……あらゆる年代、あらゆる国の英雄が現代に蘇り、
    覇を競い合う殺し合い。
     それが、この儀式が聖杯戦争と呼ばれる由縁だろう。
    Our portion of interest.
    Disregarding/regardless of era, Heroic Spirits have been summoned from as recent as a hundred years ago, to as distant as the Age of Gods.
    The seven Heroic Spirits obey their Masters, protecting them and eliminating the opposing Masters.
    ...heroes from every age and every nation are resurrected to the present day, and to slaughter each other for supremacy.



    If you really want context, the monologue sets the Heroic Spirits as the stuff of the past.

    The translation you hang your hat on is basically skewing the words.

    The "every age" in context here is basically "every age in the past".

  17. #7917
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors AAM1232's Avatar
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    He made up an explanation for Extra. Not remotely close to retconning UBW with HF. So yeah he goes for what's cool, considering his interactions with other authors on their Fate works and suggests how they might try to fit stuff in overall.

    For me personally I don't mind a lot of GO Servants when they have interesting backgrounds and gimmicks even if they really play with "Anything Goes" like Quirinus, KH, Calamity Jane, Space Ishtar and so on. But that's me, so I'll just agree to disagree regarding the topics, and take any punishments regarding the last few pages of my fight with Food. Sorry to those who were annoyed a lot by that.

  18. #7918
    nicht mitmachen Dullahan's Avatar
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    fallacies translations should not be relied upon for anything beyond pigeon-feeding (fgo redditors) until she demonstrates the ability to use the english language
    ちょう
    てい
    きょく



  19. #7919
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Comun's Avatar
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    All this talk of retcon reminds me, has anyone translated the El-Melloi's Case Files volume 6 afterword yet?

  20. #7920
    Quote Originally Posted by AAM1232 View Post
    But that's me, so I'll just agree to disagree regarding the topics, and take any punishments regarding the last few pages of my fight with Food. Sorry to those who were annoyed a lot by that.
    I mean, besides the name calling, I don't really care.

    But I really don't like the fact that you are claiming context with Fallacy's translation, while his translation obviously has ulterior motives.

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