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Thread: Unpopular TM opinions you have

  1. #6921
    月日は百代の過客にして、行かふ年も又旅 人也。 Benderesco's Avatar
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    I believe Sakura's portrayal in the original Heaven's Feel was rather shallow; any depth comes from interpreting the text generously. Sure, it gives us enough elements to enrich the text on our own, but I feel that, in trying to be subtle, Nasu ended up simply not developing things as well as he should have.

    Plus, Heaven's Feel made her rather unsympathetic - which Nasu did not intend, I'd wager, given how hard Hollow Ataraxia tries to play up her good qualities. These qualities already existed in Heaven's Feel, but were buried a bit too deep.

    The movies are better about this, thankfully.

  2. #6922
    I've never been a fan of how nasu did the 'secret society of magic users', I never liked how edgy they were and outside of case files it feels more like a relic of when nasu was in his extremely edgy phase than now, especially when like there all supposed to hate tech yet at least two clocktower lords love technology.

    I also never liked how edgy the magic itself was, well I mean when it isnt FGO or extra where we mostly ignore all the bad parts of magic, which I don't mind cause its stupid.

    Like "magic inherently feels like being hurt casue you have to walk with life and death" ---> "is barely brought up at all ever outside of FSN"

  3. #6923
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six SpoonyViking's Avatar
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    Didn't KnK also feature some of that?
    My fanfics:
    The Gift (F/SN): The last duel between Cú Chulainn and Scáthach.
    Passion Acknowledged (F/SN): Shinji X Shirou lemon
    He Was a Good King (F/SN): Was Beowulf a good king?
    A Fairy Tale of Love and Death (F/SN): A meeting between Scáthach and King Hassan.
    Palingenetic Descension (Tsukihime): The origin of the Tohno family's hybrid nature.

  4. #6924
    Quote Originally Posted by SpoonyViking View Post
    Didn't KnK also feature some of that?
    I thought KnK was implied by his edgy phase, but yes bit but not a lot outside of 'MEODP isnt the most pleasant thing', which just falls into 'dark magic thing isnt pleasant' isnt the most uncommon trope either, hell dark magic being dangerous is actually super common, so is 'overusing magic can be dangerous' it's just nasu put all magic in the dangerous pile yet doesnt really show it that much at all, most of the danger is invented by the characters and not the magic hurting them.

    Like has magic inhernetly hurting ever been brought up much at all after FSN? like i know guda collapsed in a interlude from hercules mana cost but that still just goes to the 'overusing magic' trope, I just don't like how edgy it is and how its never brought up,

    There was a similar convo to this here already but I wanted to add my two cents.

  5. #6925
    muh vampires Ratman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    Like "magic inherently feels like being hurt casue you have to walk with life and death" ---> "is barely brought up at all ever outside of FSN"
    The superpowers making you a pariah thing was started in Mahoyo, and it was kept as theme in Tsukihime, where it kind of comes back around, since Shiki wants to participate in society despite inherently being an outsider. In Fate it's kind of there as an echo, if it was stronger it'd clash with Shirou wanting to use his superpowers to help society.

    It's pretty much the strongest in Mahoyo, though, which is really more about outsiders than about any particular kind of wizards. Consider that Alice isn't a real wizard and Aoko is an outsider for a wizard.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Superpowers being irreconcilable with living or thinking as a normal person at some turned into desperately trying to present a superpower as a character flaw a-la mary sue definition, I don't know where it is that the writer lost his thread.

  6. #6926
    Quote Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
    The superpowers making you a pariah thing was started in Mahoyo, and it was kept as theme in Tsukihime, where it kind of comes back around, since Shiki wants to participate in society despite inherently being an outsider. In Fate it's kind of there as an echo, if it was stronger it'd clash with Shirou wanting to use his superpowers to help society.

    It's pretty much the strongest in Mahoyo, though, which is really more about outsiders than about any particular kind of wizards. Consider that Alice isn't a real wizard and Aoko is an outsider for a wizard.
    I'm pretty sure mahoyo was the last time it was ever really mentioned was it? as even reading case files it seemed to go with more 'overuse of magic sucks' than anything else.

    This also ties into my issue with magi society and how nasu locks himself into issues by his inherent worldbuilding/style, Like I'm fine with 'evil group of wizards' since again everyone uses it, but when you go 'all magi society is corrupted except conveniently all my protagonists dont fit the mold in some way' is when I get annoyed, hence why I refer to it as a relic.

    When even a clocktower lord (waver) acts like a semi-decent person with issues instead of "ILL SACRIFICE MY STUDENTS FOR MY ROOT" is when I get annoyed.

    EDIT : to clarify what I mean, I like protagonists beings good people as im a softy like that, what I mean is the dissonance between what is said and what is shown.
    Last edited by Byegod; May 8th, 2020 at 09:24 AM.

  7. #6927
    I told 'em, I told 'em. Bugrit! eddyak's Avatar
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    I actually love that aspect of magi a whole lot more than almost any other magic system. Being constantly one step from death actually gives some weight to being a magus that almost no other magic system has- think about the barely-magic of so many other series- point wand, say words.
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  8. #6928
    Quote Originally Posted by eddyak View Post
    I actually love that aspect of magi a whole lot more than almost any other magic system. Being constantly one step from death actually gives some weight to being a magus that almost no other magic system has- think about the barely-magic of so many other series- point wand, say words.
    Excpet my issue is that neither is represented well, he just uses it to be edgy or make magi such retards that clocktower should have entered the root by peak level retardation by now.

    and also, what you dislike about most magic is in nasu a lot, that's most magecraft outside of case files, most of the explanations dont really tell much in the first place, Nasu does not go into where most magecraft is from outside of vague things, like is puppet magecraft some golem descendent? where did gem magecraft come from? europe but what myth? most of the magic is just flavoring with no substance.

  9. #6929
    Drunk Anime Is The True Path. Mattias's Avatar
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    But going into the history of each magecraft would really bog down any narrative. I always worked for me, because of the "magic is finite" thing, so of course each mage would have different way to do things, and I don't need to know that Rin's gems explode because her grandfather cucked a Finn in the middle of her trying to take down Herc.

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  10. #6930
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    Many of the sympathetic characters in Case Files who are actual magi and not Waver's misfits do act like typical magi, such as Luvia. Magi compartmentalize their different hats pretty well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
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    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
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    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  11. #6931
    Quote Originally Posted by Mattias View Post
    But going into the history of each magecraft would really bog down any narrative. I always worked for me, because of the "magic is finite" thing, so of course each mage would have different way to do things, and I don't need to know that Rin's gems explode because her grandfather cucked a Finn in the middle of her trying to take down Herc.
    As I asked in the questions thread, how does 'magic is finite' work with 'holy grail go copiii' on servants.

    But to go back to the matter at hand, I really dont like how nasu did magi, nor do i like the concept of mystery in general (one cause of personal reasons, two also I don't think nasu has the balls to kill off magic as this is a urban fantasy, and no spiritrons are magic regardless of what nasu thinks) Plus two of the biggest sci fi things fate are still full of mystery/magic like fucking mecha gods and the mooncell AIs seeming to have mystery as well
    Last edited by Byegod; May 8th, 2020 at 11:49 AM.

  12. #6932
    The horror GarlandGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    I've never been a fan of how nasu did the 'secret society of magic users', I never liked how edgy they were and outside of case files it feels more like a relic of when nasu was in his extremely edgy phase than now, especially when like there all supposed to hate tech yet at least two clocktower lords love technology.

    I also never liked how edgy the magic itself was, well I mean when it isnt FGO or extra where we mostly ignore all the bad parts of magic, which I don't mind cause its stupid.

    Like "magic inherently feels like being hurt casue you have to walk with life and death" ---> "is barely brought up at all ever outside of FSN"
    I disagree. What made the magic and worldbuilding intriguing in TM's original works (Kara no Kyoukai, Tsukihime, F/SN) was how it was effectively used by the narrative to create a conflict between the "mundane" and the "abnormal", and being a defense of the former over the latter. Sure there were plenty of edgy aspects when it comes to the Magus but that's kind of the point. The sheer factor of being a Mage itself is inherently "inhuman", with characters like Araya being a perfect example of it. That's what made urban fantasy Nasu stand out, as much as he likes creating made up magic terminologies, he used to never forget that there's still a day to day world to which his characters must (and often long to) return to, making the story feel down to earth and relatable in spite of its supernatural aspects.


    Sadly, most of TM's recent works like Case Files and FGO pretty much omits all of that while interpreting the world as some watered down version of Harry Potter and convoluted modern Square Enix storytelling (where everything goes), respectively.
    Last edited by GarlandGreene; May 8th, 2020 at 12:13 PM.

  13. #6933
    Quote Originally Posted by GarlandGreene View Post
    I disagree. What made the magic and worldbuilding in TM's original works (Kara no Kyoukai, Tsukihime, F/SN) was how it was effectively used by the narrative to create a conflict between the "mundane" and the "abnormal", and being a defense of the former over the latter. Sure there were plenty of edgy aspects when it comes to the Magus but that's kind of the point. The sheer factor of being a Mage itself is inherently "inhuman", with characters like Araya being a perfect example of it. That's what made urban fantasy Nasu stand out, as much as he likes creating made up magic terminologies, he used to never forget that there's still a day to day world to which his characters must (and often long to) return to, making the story feel down to earth and relatable in spite of its supernatural aspects.


    Sadly, most of TM's recent works like Case Files and FGO pretty much omits all of that while interpreting the world as some watered down version of Harry Potter and convoluted modern Square Enix storytelling (where everything goes), respectively.
    I feel like I would be fine if we at least saw a rival magi organisation that wasnt fucking monsters.

    I'm not like a lot of you, my gripes with nasu are actually from both new and old nasu stuff as this conversation proves, maybe it's because i came into the fandom in like 2014?, I find the idea of mystery pretentious at best and illogical, I despise magi as it just makes me not want to read works involving heavy magi due to apathy.

    And here is my real controversial opinion, nasu has always had heavy issues as seen in kara no kyoukai and there actually very similar to the current issues, the thing is there was less of a world and no gacha game so the issues were far less apparent than now where the issues are like a jenga tower of ideas thats about to collapse

    TLDR : show your ideas more often nasu instead of talking bout them a few times then dropping them for a decade
    Last edited by Byegod; May 8th, 2020 at 12:25 PM.

  14. #6934
    The horror GarlandGreene's Avatar
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    Seems like it's more of case of "this simply just isn't my cup of tea" and you wanting the story to be something that it's not rather than the story itself being problematic...

    The whole mystery aspect that's based on made up magic never felt like an issue to me since those stories made it clear that they were never intended to be the "sherlock holmes, investigative" types of mysteries where the reader has a chance to figure out the culprit alongside the protagonists (which is ironic because that's also where the Case Files anime fails at). They were more something akin to Poe's works where the mystery itself is not that important but rather serves as an enigma to demonstrate a certain point, both theoretical and emotional. In the case of Kara no Kyoukai, that would be the psychological development of Shiki and the themes of emptiness and "becoming human" which are easily the meat and potatoes of the story.

  15. #6935
    Quote Originally Posted by GarlandGreene View Post
    Seems like it's more of case of "this simply just isn't my cup of tea" and you wanting the story to be something that it's not rather than the story itself being problematic...

    The whole mystery aspect that's based on made up magic never felt like an issue to me since those stories made it clear that they were never intended to be the "sherlock holmes, investigative" types of mysteries where the reader has a chance to figure out the culprit alongside the protagonists (which is ironic because that's also where the Case Files anime fails at). They were more something akin to Poe's works where the mystery itself is not that important but rather serves as an enigma to demonstrate a certain point, both theoretical and emotional. In the case of Kara no Kyoukai, that would be the psychological development of Shiki and the themes of emptiness and "becoming human" which are easily the meat and potatoes of the story.
    Oh yeah totally it's at least partially grounded in that, but what increases it is at times it feels like 'its told but never shown' if that makes sense, and like.... I dont care for kara no kyoukai, I found it boring outside of ufotable and the few fight scenes, though 5 and 7 were great its not worth sitting through two bad movies (1 and 6) and 3 mediocre ones.

    I do have trouble articulating my issues with a lot of nasu stuff so please forgive me if I give trouble with what I write as a lot of it is gutfeelings.
    Last edited by Byegod; May 8th, 2020 at 12:58 PM.

  16. #6936
    The horror GarlandGreene's Avatar
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    Ufotable certainly did improve some aspects of the original story. That rings even more true for Fate/Zero where they omitted some scenes by the Butcher that came off as so laughably try hard edgy that would have killed the mood of the show. Wish I could say the same for the manga...

  17. #6937
    Quote Originally Posted by GarlandGreene View Post
    Ufotable certainly did improve some aspects of the original story. That rings even more true for Fate/Zero where they omitted some scenes by the Butcher that came off as so laughably try hard edgy that would have killed the mood of the show. Wish I could say the same for the manga...
    I liked kamen rider gaim that uro did, watched it a few weeks ago, not my favorite toku but it's in the top 3 KR i have seen, though i've only seen 5 of them..., the one scene made me deduct it below build and ex aid.

    Unironically as I said the other day I think nasu is unironically a utilitarian while uro hates that concept and shits on it even in kids shows.

    Pretty sure I would hate reading kara no kyoukai if a decent translation existed, Like I roll my eyes at when nasu goes.. full nasu so I think it would throw the book in the bin if i had to put up with the text version of 'am i flying or am i falling'
    Last edited by Byegod; May 8th, 2020 at 01:10 PM.

  18. #6938
    Describing the magus archetype through protagonistic characters who for whatever reason don't meet its qualifications (Touko, whose mindset has "degenerated", and Rin, whose has inherited the principles but doesn't fully practice them) and superimposing it on antagonists who display some of those traits in a one-dimensionally depicted role (Araya, Zouken, the nebulous sketch of the Clock Tower in F/SN), and incarnating that archetype in a character on whose thoughts we are fully informed ie. casting a "proper magus" in a role in which their sociopathic and monomaniacal traits aren't just manifestations of villainy but facets of a complex character and ideology, are two very different things.

    Not least because the effort a writer needs to go through to explore the magus' personhood and how what seems to go against conventional notions of "humanness" is a product of culture and nurture and no less "human" than an immediately understandable/relatable/likable character who is identified as a magus by their knowledge and abilities and whose otherness is usually communicated either through comic behavioural quirks or morally reprehensible antagonism, goes against the discourse of the setting and the expectations of the audience.

    It can be said the the former is the "unlikable edgy meanie" and the other is an anime character, but the truth is that the dictionary definition of a magus does not easily translate to a fully-realised character, and it is easier and more convenient for the narrative that magi are likable people with interesting powers and relatable motivations. In the first place, the early works featured active, sociable, mentally adjacent magi because focusing on the exceptions to the perceived norm allowed Nasu to demonstrate the archetype without going through the pain in the ass that is writing it.
    Last edited by Leftovers; May 8th, 2020 at 01:21 PM.

  19. #6939
    Quote Originally Posted by Leftovers View Post
    Describing the magus archetype through protagonistic characters who for whatever reason don't meet its qualifications (Touko, whose mindset has "degenerated", and Rin, whose has inherited the principles but doesn't fully practice them) and superimposing it on antagonists who display some of those traits in a one-dimensionally depicted role (Araya, Zouken, the nebulous sketch of the Clock Tower in F/SN), and incarnating that archetype in a character on whose thoughts we are fully informed ie. casting a "proper magus" in a role in which their sociopathic and monomaniacal traits aren't just manifestations of villainy but facets of a complex character and ideology, are two very different things.

    Not least because the effort a writer needs to go through to explore the magus' personhood and how what seems to go against conventional notions of "humanness" is a product of culture and nurture and no less "human" than an immediately understandable/relatable/likable character who is identified as a magus by their knowledge and abilities and whose otherness is usually communicated either through comic behavioural quirks or morally reprehensible antagonism, goes against the discourse of the setting and the expectations of the audience.

    It can be said the the former is the "unlikable edgy meanie" and the other is an anime character, but the truth is that the dictionary definition of a magus does not easily translate to a fully-realised character, and it is easier and more convenient for the narrative that magi are likable people with interesting powers and relatable motivations. In the first place, the early works featured active, sociable, mentally adjacent magi because focusing on the exceptions to the perceived norm allowed Nasu to demonstrate the archetype without going the pain in the ass that is writing it.
    Your right, that's actually what I mean in my first post about nasu writing himself into a corner with a lot of this, a actual 'true magi' is incredibly nigh impossible to write so you mostly just get 'le arrogant asshole who still dressed in modern clothing' or just 'literal room temperature IQ magi', you layed it out better than me, Like its a issue where we mostly get 'quirky jerk magi' or 'quirky nice magi' with a few 2d caricatures thrown in that totally have more depth its all just in one scene and in the mats so thats good writing right?

    It's narrative dissonance to me, so that fuels my already distaste of how nasu does magi and hence why I call it a relic since I doubt nasu would do clocktower nearly the same
    Last edited by Byegod; May 8th, 2020 at 01:25 PM.

  20. #6940
    The horror GarlandGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    I liked kamen rider gaim that uro did, watched it a few weeks ago, not my favorite toku but it's in the top 3 KR i have seen, though i've only seen 5 of them..., the one scene made me deduct it below build and ex aid.
    Too bad his 3D animated Godzilla films are straight up garbage. I'd much rather listen to Touko talk all day about Nasu-babble in her seductive honey smooth voice than endure a single minute of the dialogue and exposition in that crap.

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