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Thread: Unpopular TM opinions you have

  1. #7581
    Quote Originally Posted by LJ3 View Post
    Spoiler:
    I don't know how much of an unpopular opinion this is, considering the subject matter is more or less out of sight, out of mind. Which I guess could be rather telling on how superfluous it seems considering current direction.

    I think I'm at the point where if the Tsukihime remake falls through, I won't be in arms about that. I guess because I have a deteriorating level of faith that Nasu can recapture the magic of when he did create Tsukihime. I think he can't do it.

    Tsukihime remake has always been a promise since forever, and it was important to think about what that exactly meant. A Tsukihime just updated with new visuals, character design, and CGs would honestly have been very accepted by the majority of the fanbase; or even yet, an adaptation through a more popular, accessible medium i.e. anime, would probably have been a more profitable choice in terms of exposure.

    But even then, Nasu struck me as the type that wouldn't have been satisfied with just a remaster. He's articulate and aware enough on the challenges of writing overall, and recognizes on how initial writing Tsukihime was an endeavor for a rookie writer and the state of mind and feeling then was especially important for establishing what Tsukihime was all about and what Type Moon meant to him then.

    So we can say safely that the remake was probably going to be a new version of Tsukihime, that reflects Nasu the writer now. The little tidbits we have and miscellaneous details in the past show that Nasu has brainstormed and speculated potential follow through and original concepts, even if they would ultimately not come to pass.

    With current TM direction and how this is no longer the solo Nasu show, the world he imagined tonally and thematically has drifted away from what was established in the original core works. I must temper my dissatisfaction with the acknowledgement that writers will inevitably change and that will be portrayed in their writing. The man himself has admitted this, talking on how the angst he carried then was something he wanted to throw out there, that this was something he wanted to say. The man now is currently in one of the most safest creative spaces imaginable; a billion dollar franchise, the reputation built up over the years. The man has made it.

    Much has already been talked before by other people on how this affects the creative output of TM overall. With those earlier works, they were ultimately deeply personal stories, and not the grandiose stage that's established now. Nasu has mentioned at certain points over the years a rather vague assessment on where he is with writing the new remake and juggling that with the current output now. You can sorta see some discontent hidden in the statements made, particular around GO; the potential abdication at the supposed conclusion of the Lostbelt saga, his assurance that the TM today is still fundamentally the TM you fell in love with back then. It makes me wonder if Nasu feels trapped by the leviathan he has created, whether it be the story or the business model promoted by GO. There is no hard proof of this, though Nasu still strikes me as a savvy enough writer to understand what potential downsides and implications going through with this current direction does.

    Nasu has always been a emotional writer, someone who stereo typically writes like a madman once inspired. It's partly why we have been getting more and more Fate content, for better and for worse. He famously mentioned on how typically the average writer only has a few stories to tell and then that's it. I think we can all agree that there are core cliches and tropes Nasu continually employs for the world of TM so far. It's a charge that I suspect is a source of anxiety for Nasu the writer.

    Does he still have that edge, that driving impulse that compelled him to be an artist? Can he make this Tsukihime the same proverbial lightning in a bottle, or will this new story be reflective of current TM direction now, the man as he is now? The second answer is what makes me nervous.

    This honestly comes across as he sold out, that the TM corporation is like Disney creatively concerning franchises, slick marketing and promotion of products meant to capitalize on manipulating fans to shell out to maximize profits, and mining your previous artistic creations to a husk of what it once was. It's why I'm skeptical that the remake will be this revival, that it won't reflect the current direction I find so much to be dissatisfied with, and that it will be still the Tsukihime that Nasu lovingly came up with.

    I didn't want to post out a shitpost like lol GO bad. I still think it's important to sincerely explain what it is you think is wrong, what concerns, what you perceived the message to be. And honestly.

    It would be great to be proven wrong.
    Great post. You strike at the core of the matter without having to spend a million words tearing at 10+ years of TM output to get to it. What is fundamentally necessary isn't revisiting the old stories but recapturing the creative ambition and the need which they were written to satisfy. To this end I think not even a Remake is enough, caught in the trappings of this setting as it is, but expecting an original work seems even more delusional than expecting the Remake to right all wrongs, as if the brand name of Fate is solely at fault. If he has greater ambitions as a writer than turning his teenage scribblings into full-fledged works ("a writer can only write 5 good works in his life") and making video games then it'll show in his work, just as it had set the bar so high in the first place. Until then, the pill that cures the blind belief in Nasu's inherent quality remains the hardest to swallow.

    Thanks for posting this, really.

  2. #7582
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six SpoonyViking's Avatar
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    I've said this before, but Apocrypha actually has a pretty good premise. Not the Grand Grail War, that's just the window dressing, but the actual plotline of what is effectively a newborn who has every reason to hate humanity actually embracing it and putting his life on the line for it against a saint who hates humanity yet still wants to save it should have made for a powerful story. The actual execution left a lot to be desired, not least of which because the writing is blander than oatmeal without any sugar or spices or pieces of fruit, but it's a story which did have more potential than most.
    My fanfics:
    The Gift (F/SN): The last duel between Cú Chulainn and Scáthach.
    Passion Acknowledged (F/SN): Shinji X Shirou lemon
    He Was a Good King (F/SN): Was Beowulf a good king?
    A Fairy Tale of Love and Death (F/SN): A meeting between Scáthach and King Hassan.
    Palingenetic Descension (Tsukihime): The origin of the Tohno family's hybrid nature.

  3. #7583
    The horror GarlandGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LJ3 View Post
    It's why I'm skeptical that the remake will be this revival, that it won't reflect the current direction I find so much to be dissatisfied with, and that it will be still the Tsukihime that Nasu lovingly came up with.
    Wouldn't be surprised if it ends up as another FF7 Remake scenario where in an attempt to make the plot feel fresh again, they blow the story out of proportions with a bunch of unnecessary meta elements that did nothing but over-complicate what some consider to be an already convoluted story. To quote a certain content creator:

    If you combine a socially awkward amnesiac protagonist who's unreliable perspective gives you free rein to mislead your audience with alien DNA powered mind control and characters that can seemingly teleport or pass through objects with contagious premonitions of the future and suddenly introduced resurrection elements that can really only exist to demonstrate the power of your time-traveling ghosts that can easily be taken as a meta allegory for player expectations...You've got a shitty fucking story mate.

    Granted, Nasu does has a better record than the Nojima/Nomura duo but let's just say that Last Encore didn't exactly do him any favors in that regard.

  4. #7584
    Quote Originally Posted by Leftovers View Post
    Great post. You strike at the core of the matter without having to spend a million words tearing at 10+ years of TM output to get to it. What is fundamentally necessary isn't revisiting the old stories but recapturing the creative ambition and the need which they were written to satisfy. To this end I think not even a Remake is enough, caught in the trappings of this setting as it is, but expecting an original work seems even more delusional than expecting the Remake to right all wrongs, as if the brand name of Fate is solely at fault. If he has greater ambitions as a writer than turning his teenage scribblings into full-fledged works ("a writer can only write 5 good works in his life") and making video games then it'll show in his work, just as it had set the bar so high in the first place. Until then, the pill that cures the blind belief in Nasu's inherent quality remains the hardest to swallow.

    Thanks for posting this, really.
    If only we had high production value TM games like what Nier Automata did.

  5. #7585
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six
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    Quote Originally Posted by mami-kouga View Post
    I guess I'm should be grateful I got into this franchise when it was already neck deep in fate
    I've always been interested in seeing how people get into TM through Nasu or the other affiliated writers. I firmly believe how you get exposed to a work and which specific work, particularly with these connected stories, really determines your initial impression on what the Nasuverse means, what its content is trying to convey, the whole nine yards of message.

    Derogatory jokes like "zero secondaries" and "GO zoomers" and putting aside the jab, the kernel of truth is that those specific works and the medium it's done are very influential in how you conceive the overall framework of this established universe as it's promoted. I think it is the truth that what is set by Nasu and TM, whether it be pre-Fate, the VN, post VN, GO and onwards, is not the same overall when you view them chronologically and how it is developed.


    Quote Originally Posted by AsGryffynn View Post
    I feel the issue is that Nasu essentially became a Disney surrogate: he went from creator to overseer, but his works have now outgrown him. Any attempt to change it will alienate old fans and new supporters.

    Like even if the people liked it, there's no guarantee it's going to be the same people. Even if it ends up staying as a similar work to the original, we're still going to get rage from the new fans and the old fans might not be there anymore (development hell dashes all hopes). In other words, the reboot will certainly represent a major risk either way. The problem seems to be Nasu knows and doesn't know if he should just let the franchise die and focus on essentially turning Fate into a Shared Universe, retcon the thing away or even decide to go ahead at the risk of something going bad.
    I think the hype surrounding Tsukihime remake is something that's gonna be hard to divorce from anyone's evaluation. I see you put it that his works have outgrown him. This I think points to what you've said before on what you believe is how inconsistent you find this franchise and what you wanted to see from it. I think a more appropriate statement was Urobuchi's Marvel comparison, in that he thought that it would be plausible for the Fate side of what Nasu created to be like a superhero comic book universe, where different writers can plug in their take on a common framework and history i.e. shared universe. It's already been done.


    Quote Originally Posted by Leftovers View Post
    Strange fake analysis
    Excuse me for condensing it all down to that. I'm glad I read through it and it gives me new thought on Strange Fake.

    I have never done a Narita work before or Strange Fake so I am ignorant on that author's style. That would be an impediment on some understanding on what he's doing with this. So I hadn't put much thought on what Strange Fake was doing and it's interesting to see you put out how Narita is essentially using Strange Fake to make a more clever comment on what's been done with TM than what his detractors give him credit for.


    Quote Originally Posted by Leftovers View Post
    Great post. You strike at the core of the matter without having to spend a million words tearing at 10+ years of TM output to get to it. What is fundamentally necessary isn't revisiting the old stories but recapturing the creative ambition and the need which they were written to satisfy. To this end I think not even a Remake is enough, caught in the trappings of this setting as it is, but expecting an original work seems even more delusional than expecting the Remake to right all wrongs, as if the brand name of Fate is solely at fault. If he has greater ambitions as a writer than turning his teenage scribblings into full-fledged works ("a writer can only write 5 good works in his life") and making video games then it'll show in his work, just as it had set the bar so high in the first place. Until then, the pill that cures the blind belief in Nasu's inherent quality remains the hardest to swallow.

    Thanks for posting this, really.
    Thanks! Yeah, we did talk before on what is fundamentally necessary if you were going to make your own contribution to TM and my approval on what you said hasn't changed.

    I liked what you just said on the problem with expecting more as I've done. You are correct that I have always over evaluated Nasu's caliber; by that I think I should say original sin was always there. The core problems that I, you, or anyone else have with what's expressed now has always been present from the beginning of his career. What we're seeing now is a logical procession from that.

    I guess what it is is that I'm not really in blind love with Nasu anymore as I was when I first found out about these stories. The honeymoon is over. And it's cliche but true, that things have changed and will.

    The experiences I had then and what others have now is not the same and I really should keep that in mind when criticizing.

  6. #7586
    Inactive Imperial's Avatar
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    That's a pretty fantastic breakdown, Leftovers.

    I'll be the first to admit I've passed from Type-Moon fan to cynical observer of the franchise at this point, and after reading that, I have to conclude that I probably have judged it too harshly and linked it to Apocrypha too soon.

    The point that most struck me, though, was the interiority of Shirou. Yeah, it is unfair of me to hold the other Fate/whatever titles to that standard because they are fundamentally different in presentation. We will probably never have another Shirou because I don't see Fate going back to that kind of protagonist. It's easier to make a blank canvas onto which the player/reader can project themselves or a third person perspective.
    Spoiler:
    Originally Posted by You
    when all the evils have given up their waifus, all the greats have left for med school, and there are no more at least 3 day battles to be fought what is left is

    not Tsukihime 2
    not DDD3
    not even Girl's Work

    but f/go

    and now f/go english

    that is what is waiting for you at the end of schadenfreude


  7. #7587
    Quote Originally Posted by LJ3 View Post





    Thanks! Yeah, we did talk before on what is fundamentally necessary if you were going to make your own contribution to TM and my approval on what you said hasn't changed.

    I liked what you just said on the problem with expecting more as I've done. You are correct that I have always over evaluated Nasu's caliber; by that I think I should say original sin was always there. The core problems that I, you, or anyone else have with what's expressed now has always been present from the beginning of his career. What we're seeing now is a logical procession from that.

    I guess what it is is that I'm not really in blind love with Nasu anymore as I was when I first found out about these stories. The honeymoon is over. And it's cliche but true, that things have changed and will.

    The experiences I had then and what others have now is not the same and I really should keep that in mind when criticizing.
    I fundamentally agree with this, a lot 'current nasu' issues have always existed (though what you define as issue may differ from person to person) and that current writing or 'worldbuilding' is the result of those issues never being fixed or restrained.

    also funny how i moved from honeymoon to cynicalness within.. 5-6 years? I fucking speedrun that, though as a 'Nu-TM' fan i will never understand the issues some of you older fans have against nasu.
    Last edited by Byegod; June 21st, 2020 at 12:28 AM.

  8. #7588
    ちちうえ~❤ AmADo VII's Avatar
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    should we really go back to old TM where Kinoko was completely isolated from opinions by Takeuchi?

  9. #7589
    I dont feel like takeuchi can do that now lol

  10. #7590
    The horror GarlandGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    a lot 'current nasu' issues have always existed and that current writing or 'worldbuilding' is the result of those issuse never being existed
    ???

    You might want to rephrase that

  11. #7591
    Quote Originally Posted by GarlandGreene View Post
    ???

    You might want to rephrase that
    "a lot 'current nasu' issues have always existed and that current writing or 'worldbuilding' is the result of those issuse never being restrained or fixed"

    Sorry.

  12. #7592
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors weeblord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LJ3 View Post
    Spoiler:
    I don't know how much of an unpopular opinion this is, considering the subject matter is more or less out of sight, out of mind. Which I guess could be rather telling on how superfluous it seems considering current direction.

    I think I'm at the point where if the Tsukihime remake falls through, I won't be in arms about that. I guess because I have a deteriorating level of faith that Nasu can recapture the magic of when he did create Tsukihime. I think he can't do it.

    Tsukihime remake has always been a promise since forever, and it was important to think about what that exactly meant. A Tsukihime just updated with new visuals, character design, and CGs would honestly have been very accepted by the majority of the fanbase; or even yet, an adaptation through a more popular, accessible medium i.e. anime, would probably have been a more profitable choice in terms of exposure.

    But even then, Nasu struck me as the type that wouldn't have been satisfied with just a remaster. He's articulate and aware enough on the challenges of writing overall, and recognizes on how initial writing Tsukihime was an endeavor for a rookie writer and the state of mind and feeling then was especially important for establishing what Tsukihime was all about and what Type Moon meant to him then.

    So we can say safely that the remake was probably going to be a new version of Tsukihime, that reflects Nasu the writer now. The little tidbits we have and miscellaneous details in the past show that Nasu has brainstormed and speculated potential follow through and original concepts, even if they would ultimately not come to pass.

    With current TM direction and how this is no longer the solo Nasu show, the world he imagined tonally and thematically has drifted away from what was established in the original core works. I must temper my dissatisfaction with the acknowledgement that writers will inevitably change and that will be portrayed in their writing. The man himself has admitted this, talking on how the angst he carried then was something he wanted to throw out there, that this was something he wanted to say. The man now is currently in one of the most safest creative spaces imaginable; a billion dollar franchise, the reputation built up over the years. The man has made it.

    Much has already been talked before by other people on how this affects the creative output of TM overall. With those earlier works, they were ultimately deeply personal stories, and not the grandiose stage that's established now. Nasu has mentioned at certain points over the years a rather vague assessment on where he is with writing the new remake and juggling that with the current output now. You can sorta see some discontent hidden in the statements made, particular around GO; the potential abdication at the supposed conclusion of the Lostbelt saga, his assurance that the TM today is still fundamentally the TM you fell in love with back then. It makes me wonder if Nasu feels trapped by the leviathan he has created, whether it be the story or the business model promoted by GO. There is no hard proof of this, though Nasu still strikes me as a savvy enough writer to understand what potential downsides and implications going through with this current direction does.

    Nasu has always been a emotional writer, someone who stereo typically writes like a madman once inspired. It's partly why we have been getting more and more Fate content, for better and for worse. He famously mentioned on how typically the average writer only has a few stories to tell and then that's it. I think we can all agree that there are core cliches and tropes Nasu continually employs for the world of TM so far. It's a charge that I suspect is a source of anxiety for Nasu the writer.

    Does he still have that edge, that driving impulse that compelled him to be an artist? Can he make this Tsukihime the same proverbial lightning in a bottle, or will this new story be reflective of current TM direction now, the man as he is now? The second answer is what makes me nervous.

    This honestly comes across as he sold out, that the TM corporation is like Disney creatively concerning franchises, slick marketing and promotion of products meant to capitalize on manipulating fans to shell out to maximize profits, and mining your previous artistic creations to a husk of what it once was. It's why I'm skeptical that the remake will be this revival, that it won't reflect the current direction I find so much to be dissatisfied with, and that it will be still the Tsukihime that Nasu lovingly came up with.

    I didn't want to post out a shitpost like lol GO bad. I still think it's important to sincerely explain what it is you think is wrong, what concerns, what you perceived the message to be. And honestly.

    It would be great to be proven wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leftovers View Post
    Great post. You strike at the core of the matter without having to spend a million words tearing at 10+ years of TM output to get to it. What is fundamentally necessary isn't revisiting the old stories but recapturing the creative ambition and the need which they were written to satisfy. To this end I think not even a Remake is enough, caught in the trappings of this setting as it is, but expecting an original work seems even more delusional than expecting the Remake to right all wrongs, as if the brand name of Fate is solely at fault. If he has greater ambitions as a writer than turning his teenage scribblings into full-fledged works ("a writer can only write 5 good works in his life") and making video games then it'll show in his work, just as it had set the bar so high in the first place. Until then, the pill that cures the blind belief in Nasu's inherent quality remains the hardest to swallow.

    Thanks for posting this, really.
    DAMN hitting me right where it hurts, like a verbal kick in the dick. Its definitely true that in my mind TsukiRime has over the years mutated from a work i simply look forward to into this magical, mythical cure to cancer, and once its out everything will go back to "normal". A miracle drug that wakes me up from this long, long nightmare of derivative mediocrity. As if it would somehow open the floodgates for the old, atmospheric, down to earth urban fantasy works and nasuverse concepts long forgotten by everyone except maybe Narita in his reference storms.

  13. #7593
    ちちうえ~❤ AmADo VII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by weeblord View Post
    DAMN hitting me right where it hurts, like a verbal kick in the dick. Its definitely true that in my mind TsukiRime has over the years mutated from a work i simply look forward to into this magical, mythical cure to cancer, and once its out everything will go back to "normal". A miracle drug that wakes me up from this long, long nightmare of derivative mediocrity. As if it would somehow open the floodgates for the old, atmospheric, down to earth urban fantasy works and nasuverse concepts long forgotten by everyone except maybe Narita in his reference storms.
    Takeuchi did good job keeping Kinoko away from reading something like this.

  14. #7594
    muh vampires Ratman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LJ3 View Post
    -
    Likely. Tsukihime today feels inadequate in two ways - it is missing at least 20 more tracks of music, and a bunch of CGs, and this would be easy enough to fix. Secondly though, some of its writing feels amateurish, and kind of empty. Some of this is part of what the game is, but there are a lot of parts where an interesting idea could be explored and it's not because the writer didn't think of it. I know exactly what happens when Old Nasu comes to a paragraph he doesn't like because it's boring, and tries to fix it. By the end of it it's three times as long, and makes a completely different statement. Worse, 10 years is enough time that the corrections you made at the start will feel inadequate today. If TsukiRe never happens that's fine, but let it be heard that if nothing else but Fate ever happens anymore, that is not fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leftovers View Post
    bottom text
    Good defense of SF. I hate Narita marginally less now.
    Last edited by Ratman; June 21st, 2020 at 04:23 AM.

  15. #7595
    Cats are awesome RCM9698's Avatar
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    i don't know who is this character who is "only happy when helping others...", but it's definitely not Saber
    I vaguely remember a quote from the VN saying from something like that. Since I can’t find it and have no intention of combing through the VN, I will put it like the wiki phrases it:

    “As she was born and raised to be a king in service of her country, she has no sense of self-worth past that, and can only feel fulfilled by serving other people.”

    Saber is not supposed to be realistic character, shes a walking, breathing ideal
    Exactly, one I wholeheartedly dissaprove of and don’t see any beauty in, unlike the narrative.

    Idk I respectfully disagree because like, just taking a birds eye view of it, it might seem that way, but there's been a lot of heartwarming stuff too (Flat's discussion with Jack on the church balcony, Sigma's discussions with Zealot etc.) Maybe it's just me but I just kinda brush off the cool things and just go for the emotional scenes.
    I always find it interesting to read your perspective on SF. We both like the series, but mostly for completely different reasons.

    People shit on FSN for its multitudinous cooking scenes (and rightfully so), but you have to lean into characters and let them breathe a bit to get me truly invested.
    I agree, but and some scenes are useful to establish the characters relationships and interactions. The VN Really overdoes it however.

  16. #7596
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six
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    Why would you quote the wiki of all things? The English TM wiki is terrible for its often made up BS.

  17. #7597
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCM9698 View Post
    I vaguely remember a quote from the VN saying from something like that. Since I can’t find it and have no intention of combing through the VN, I will put it like the wiki phrases it:

    “As she was born and raised to be a king in service of her country, she has no sense of self-worth past that, and can only feel fulfilled by serving other people.”
    While I don't think there's anything fundamentally incorrect with that quote, I think it would be a mistake to chock that up to "altruism" on Saber's part.

    One of the major themes of Saber's character development throughout the VN is learning to be her own person, and not just a tool of the state. This reaches two different logical end points depending on which route you play (Fate and UBW Good). It sounds to me like you just don't like the starting point for her character arc.

    Your description sounds much, much, much more accurate for Shirou. Do you feel the same way about him?
    The Fourth Order - Long form, Church-centric story. Follows the life of a young knight within the Church, and her personal battle against the heretical.
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  18. #7598
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmADo VII View Post
    Takeuchi did good job keeping Kinoko away from reading something like this.


    Where did you learn on how initially Takeuchi was that strict of a sorta editor?

  19. #7599
    nicht mitmachen Dullahan's Avatar
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    Shoulda kept nasu away from reading his own bank statements
    うん
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  20. #7600
    HSTP 500 Internal S ervant  Error aldeayeah's Avatar
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    I don't want a Tsukihime remake anymore. I think the original is fine. (<- this is the unpopular opinion)

    * * *

    What I want is Nasu to shut himself in for a few months and make a new work, free of the yoke of monetization.
    Bonus points if that new work is itself a thinly veiled exploration/sublimation of TM's current corporate existence.
    Would the Takeuchi and Nasu stand-ins be heroes, villains or something else entirely?

    * * *

    And then I want him to burn the unreleased manuscript, never ever write again, and live a happy life.
    And never again give an interview, or even answer a single question about his works.
    Go full Bill Watterson.
    Last edited by aldeayeah; June 21st, 2020 at 07:40 PM.
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