Unpopular TM opinions you have

[Byegod]

How much should be changed then

And as i said things can be changed and should just be obvious and clear. but how much then?

[eddyak]

Maybe it would be more minimalist with influence from Miyazaki which isn't really bad.

Yes, it would. Let's not pretend the Souls formula would work well at all with Fate, where dialogue, mechanics and internal conflict are two thirds of the battle, and then gigantic spectacle is the other third. Meanwhile, in Miyazaki land: "I've got BOSS WEAPONS! Right down the road!" *never sees that NPC again*

[Byegod]

I feel like anime look would feel with souls mechanics/gameplay ngl. Too clean? Like with souls I expect some grossness, not gore but... iunno THE LOATHSOMME DUNGEATER to use a meme

[fumei]

I like how you think I meant drafts, of course you change things, im learning to be a fucking artist and know a few small writers, they change or retcon things. In fact I think writers should retcon things more as when it comes to big settings often writers prefer to ignore stupid idea other writers put and they fester like a fucking cancer. But I also like when writers are more explicit on retcons

No what I mean is changing things to the point that previous published writing or materials are contradicted, especially if its a lorebook, my general opinion is this :

"If you gonna release materials, lorebooks or hints, be damn sure your not gonna change them, otherwise your insulting people who buy them for the lore."

Ive bought lorebooks that are noncanon or make no sense in the past, and it fucking pisses me off when they said they finally nailed down all the lore and then changed the backstories yet fucking again.

Well, which is it? You keep saying this thing about retconning old side mats being this great sin, but you think he should still retcon more stuff to cut off all the other stuff you frequently bring up as "unnecessary" or "decrepit" to the setting. Not to mention the constant talk of "LB6 changing" as if that's not okay either. Just make up your mind already.

Also, the one big side material that got explicitly thrown out the window did so after something like 15 years. At that point, surely, you don't hold such zealous faith in side materials that you're insulted by it being retconned, especially considering the above statements.

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More generally (in response to the discussion yesterday about things being "hidden" too much etc that I can't be arsed to go back and quote now), I really do think that this frantic obsession with the lore, and only the lore, is a cancer of the community. Lore and worldbuilding should serve a very clear purpose in supporting the given story, whether it be thematically, directly having an impact on the plot, setting up future stories, or giving broader context to current plot points. Filling your stories with explicit and detailed explanations of every single thing, down to the smallest of details, is arguably such an amateurish writing quirk which reads so poorly, that it really makes me wonder how much people even read outside of TM stuff if that's the standard they're looking for.

It's one thing to release side materials explaining certain things that were left unclear in the story, but that knowledge of still remains relevant for the given story (see basically any Q&A or a lot of the character materials released), although arguably this shouldn't even need to exist because all things of relevance should preferably actually be explained in the story itself (of course, no one ever really complains about this). And that's not even to say I don't enjoy these things. I do like getting more info on random lore bits, but at the end of the day you have to internalize that if you got a lore bible detailing all the lords of the Clock Tower, that doesn't add anything at all. Fiction is at its most "real" when it comes together in a story which you can immerse yourself into, and a lorebook is not that. The idea that this should further only be done because you want an easier time writing fanfic is honestly insane to me. I wholeheartedly agree with Dullahan on this point: just write your fanfic. It's not canon in the first place, so what does it matter? Just make it as faithful as you can if that's important to you and that's it. If there exists no canon explanation for the things you're using then your fanfic won't be any more "wrong" for making stuff up either. And if you at that point believe that you might as well just write your own novel, that's honestly great. Do that. You could effectively be the next E. L. James (with less smut, hopefully).

Considering the general level, I guess Sanderson's Mistborn series might be a good comparison here, to be honest (in the sense that Mistborn feels like today's "baby's first fantasy" and it's what gets generally praised in the mainstream as go-to contemporary fantasy writing). So many things about his world just get hinted at, mentioned in a line or two, and then never expanded upon again, and nobody even bats an eye. And that's because it doesn't matter to the story. If he wants to then explore these concepts further, he makes another series (since he also uses a shared universe) that does this within the context of another story. That's honestly what you should ask for, not some raw lorebook.

So yeah TLDR I guess my unpopular opinion (as it were in the last couple of pages at most) is that people in general in this community are too obsessively focused on the lore itself rather than the stories in which the lore is contextualized. Perhaps this is the result of wanting to cling to a community wherein most people can't actually read the given material, and so they just grasp at any straws they can reach, and that happens to be bits of lore rather than story excerpts, because it's easier to cut out and share to masses.

[AAM1232]

Considering the general level, I guess Sanderson's Mistborn series might be a good comparison here, to be honest (in the sense that Mistborn feels like today's "baby's first fantasy" and it's what gets generally praised in the mainstream as go-to contemporary fantasy writing). So many things about his world just get hinted at, mentioned in a line or two, and then never expanded upon again, and nobody even bats an eye. And that's because it doesn't matter to the story. If he wants to then explore these concepts further, he makes another series (since he also uses a shared universe) that does this within the context of another story. That's honestly what you should ask for, not some raw lorebook.

I mean Sanderson actually talks about this during his worldbuilding video lecture, where he points out that most of the time authors are essentially making it look like there's more depth to the background than there really is (should be timestamped at 1:07:44, from that point on). So if things one finds interesting aren't really developed it really shouldn't be this big deal.

[Byegod]

I dont think its wrong to say nasu leans into the minutae/long explanations/big worldbuilding ect no?

[Kamera]

I think one of the major difference with Fate compared to regular fantasy world-building is the fact that the "Nasuverse" is built atop IRL myth and histories, so in a sense the iceberg already has solid foundation that need only to be carved.

[Byegod]

I suppose it depends on which part of the setting you are interested in? I said this before but there is a few groups in the fandom, some have more interest in the OC stuff and some have the myth/historical parts.

I would also argue there isn't teasing of things as much in some works of normal fantasy? Like Fumei is it wrong to say nasu still teases and builds up to things like the 1st magic even now, no?

[Herod]

I would also argue there isn't teasing of things as much in some works of normal fantasy? Like Fumei is it wrong to say nasu still teases and builds up to things like the 1st magic even now, no?

You have this strange idea that Nasu has "hyped" and "teased" this shit for years while until what, one year ago? the first was almost never mentioned by itself and only things we knew about it was a nebulous "無の否定" mentioned almost at side note level.

[Byegod]

You have this strange idea that Nasu has hyped and but teased this shit for years while until what, one year ago? the first was almost never mentioned by itself and only things we knew about it was a nebulous "無の否定" mentioned almost at side note level.

[Kamera]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Nasu does keep "teasing" about the First Magic

[Comun]

First Magic is a bad example because it's explicitly attached to a Mahoyo protagonist. We know when we'll see it. The Mahoyo sequels. It's the Fourth that exists just for the sake of existing.

[Herod]

I'm quite sure you can count the times the First Magic was mentioned before Mahoyo on the fingers of one hand. And yes, there has been an increase of information about it since then, in particular in the last 1-2 years.

First Magic is a bad example because it's explicitly attached to a Mahoyo protagonist. We know when we'll see it. The Mahoyo sequels. It's the Fourth that exists just for the sake of existing.

Well, sure, but before Mahoyo VN it was just a fun autoreferential joke.
It's also very probable that the Third was a placeholder just like the Fourth before the writing of FSN.

[Byegod]

By that logic nasu could reveal one of his ancient works like Flowers of Ice and reveal the 4th magic in that suddenly. Dont go 'it's not relevant until its relevant'

[Kamera]

That's more likely than you think

[Herod]

By that logic nasu could reveal one of his ancient works like Flowers of Ice and reveal the 4th magic in that suddenly

Sure, why not? the point is not that he couldn't, the point is that it doesn't matter.

[Kamera]

Going back, I guess my main grievance with "hidden lore" really is limited specifically to Case Files. Maybe partly since I had such high hopes and expectation for it in the beginning, only for it to turn out as nothing more than a shitty attempt at a mystery LN.

[Petrikow]

We actually know far more about the First Magic than I think people give it credit for.

That said, it's as Comun said, the First Magic is clearly a Mahoyo plot point and the full details of it won't be unveiled until we get the continuation of that story.

[Byegod]

That's more likely than you think

Has it been mentioned since 2001?

Going back, I guess my main grievance with "hidden lore" really is limited specifically to Case Files. Maybe partly since I had such high hopes and expectation for it in the beginning, only for it to turn out as nothing more than a shitty attempt at a mystery LN.

I mean isnt a lot of the hidden lore more 'nasu's thing' then sanda, or are you saying You expected sanda to reveal more on that stuff but he didnt?

Looking at old interviews is funny for these type of conversations...

[Ideofago]

I'm gonna sit on this thread for like an afternoon and then come up with a defense for all the loreposting.