Unpopular TM opinions you have

[Mattias]

Eh, I don't like Sakura either but never to the point of doubling down on her suffering. I just don't really like mothering character archtypes.

[mami-kouga]

That pic of morning after Rin x Shirou on the script for the epilogue of UBW's anime was basically the staff giving you the thumbs up that they're banging.
Its kind of why I didn't really understand why people were mad about the lack of a kiss. Shirou's giving her lap pillow, they're living the college life together, art of them getting groceries, and the aforementioned butt naked just out of bed embracing pic on that script.
If they needed more confirmation they were a couple, then I dunno lol.

Wow, something that never made it to the episode itself, I'm beside myself in joy/s

[eddyak]

Eh, I don't like Sakura either but never to the point of doubling down on her suffering. I just don't really like mothering character archtypes.

Yeah, she's just the only person in the series who doesn't fit.

I think I've said it before, the entire series is about people of agency- everyone in FSN wants something, wants to achieve something, wants to fight, wants to become somebody, wants to just continue their lives- Sakura's lacking almost all of that, she wants nothing, she's been allowed no agency, she wants nothing to do with FSN in the first place, her biggest ambition is for the guy she loves to love her back.

[Altima of the Gates]

Yeah let me just go search for the cover of the script of one of the episodes if I want to see the protagonist couple being intimate before a multiple-years timeskip.

Wow, something that never made it to the episode itself, I'm beside myself in joy/s

The other stuff though, the episode was literally an add on to UBW True with new stuff, with college life sweetness, sleeping side by side on the train, lap pillows and headpats.
I feel for you not getting that kiss, I really do, but come on now, its not like they weren't giving shipservice.

^That's actually incorrect Eddy. You're comparing with some of the other characters without actually giving nuance.
Sakura isn't just a mothering type, I mean, she becomes captain of her club of her own volition, she stays dedicated to the archery club even if Shirou never comes back. Is interested in bettering her cooking for herself rather than being wifey for Shirou because she likes to eat (one of the prime reasons I like her).
She finds her own mentor, she didn't have a training program like Rin did. So she's doing things she wants to do, not just for fitting a role.
Even in HF Normal, trauma she might have had, she retrained in magecraft and took an apprentice.

[Delastogos]

Yeah, she's just the only person in the series who doesn't fit.

I think I've said it before, the entire series is about people of agency- everyone in FSN wants something, wants to achieve something, wants to fight, wants to become somebody, wants to just continue their lives- Sakura's lacking almost all of that, she wants nothing, she's been allowed no agency, she wants nothing to do with FSN in the first place, her biggest ambition is for the guy she loves to love her back.

Given what she went through, i can see why she doesn't really want anything to do with the world of mages after HF. There's also the whole point of all the heroines having goals that are somewhat simple or even childish and play off Shirou's whole Hero of Justice thing.

[OnesFleetingGlory]

To be fair, compared to Shirou with Post-HGW Kiritsugu and Rin who's left with Tokiomi's teaching and some guidance by Kirei, Sakura had it the worst. Stuck with strangers for a family whose patriarch saw her as nothing more than an abusable tool, and a jealous and also abusive adoptive brother, she grew up not knowing what she really wants, other than a simple, genuine affection.

[Altima of the Gates]

That's the thing though. Its not really that she doesn't know what she wants, its that her thought process is pretty obvious: "why waste time thinking about that when I could die at any moment?"
Shirou and her discussed on whether she hated what happened to her, and she realistically said that it didn't matter, if she couldn't live through it, she would have died.
So once she is out of that, she basically was able to do a bunch of things, became captain of the club she was in and reformed it, she was already making spice arrangements and notes for cooking, because she takes getting better seriously.
She made friends with a priest of the church and has her own contacts with the Clock Tower. Frankly, it wouldn't be unheard of to never want to be involved with magecraft again. But she doesn't really give up on magecraft.
Nasu says that things don't end up well post the first two routes, so her getting her life together in the one route she is free is logical.

Honestly, her refusing Rin's invitation to the Clock Tower is likely the smartest move while she and Shirou are in transition toward the next part of their lives. Besides the funny idea of a family magic tourney and winning prize money, its odd Rin didn't think of any dangers with bringing two novice freaks tied to a powerful familiar to London.
She just got out of being a lab rat for 11 years, why risk going back. Especially after Zelretch told her "yeah, this place is a shithole, get what you need and leave".


I get all wordy on this not just because she is my favorite character, but its incredibly easy to see her dismissed as just a poor soul with no drive, and if one is brutally honest, all that gains the character is empty sympathy, but no understanding.
She isn't Rin, who pretty much has the world laid out for her, she'll have a hard road as a magus, and as a person, finding her own way in many ways. She doesn't have a crest, she is head of a house she had to murder herself out of, that is basically dead besides her, without anything to really guide her way. So she finds another avenue, and she has to get her mind wrapped around all the things that happened afterwards.
Its not something to pity, but I've always thought its just nice she isn't trying to become Hokage or anything, but now that she has a life to live, wants to live it on her terms. She's just cool to me, can't help it.

[TheSeaDragon]

Anyone is entitled to lik or not a caracter, but most anti sakura argumnts are ...rally not accurate at all if someone truly pay attention

[chevkraken]

they are acurate, it's just different vision of the character... Sakura is a really bad writen character for me(and as it's focus on her, the Heaven Feel route too), and most of the argument you gave (except the fact she could kill Zouken before the war) just feel to me like false excuse make by people who love the character and want to ignore the flaw in her writing.

It's like Ufotable direction, pacing, writing, for me many people love it, for most most of their work (not just typemoon) are really bad and are just made to please what public of the ten like years like (I don't really like modern anime and Ufotable and Shaft series are the worst for me).


What is good, what is bad depend of the peoples

[Delastogos]

The same could be said of you in just making excuses to justify your distaste of the writting because of personal biases and experiences.

You can only use the "Art is subjective" line for so long before it sounds like a deflection.

[chevkraken]

The same could be said of you in just making excuses to justify your distaste of the writting because of personal biases and experiences.

Yep, you are true.

[Gehennahem]

They weren't destroyed, but she won't be the same as she would have been normally post experimentation as she would have been raised as a Tohsaka (or with a certain other family that shares blood with her)..
And to be fair, her own father thought that a girl with no training would kill Zouken if he happened to be using her for the wrong ends, so people are wrong in both RL and in story lol.
It pisses people off because its a fairly realistic account of what would happen if you raised a child into abuse and experimentation since the age of 4, but often people expect a main character to just power through trauma like that not taking into account the obvious limitations of trying to fight someone who has his familiars attached to your vital organs, draining your power constantly.
But I've already scratched my head at how Tokiomi thought that a child who wasn't trained, would just shonen hotblood destroy a magus who helped create the grail system after they've had a chance to alter their body. Did he not think Zolgen would have safeguards against a powerful child like that who was served to him on a silver plate with no supervisor from the birth family?
We know he expected Zouken wouldn't waste her talent, but in his mind, he probably thought that even if his plans were nefarious, he would give her the crest, all his assets, pretty much all the tools to fuck him over, even if he considered her a lab rat. Which boggles my mind, but whatever.

To be fair, I don't think Tokiomi even knew that Zouken Matou was Zolgen Makiri which is his actual name vs. his alias who doesn't have anything close to what he had 500 years ago or even when we see him in say London in FGO's Timeline(I think Tokiomi even knows that Zouken is in charge of a dying family entirely)
But as someone said, no Mage would do what Zouken did under any circumstances and would treat Sakura as the second coming of Christ for them... except Zouken's insane ass.

EDIT: And to just go on the Anti-Sakura brigade a user is doing...
Sakura was sexually violated by Zouken for YEARS, ever since she was 4-6 years old and on top of that, he put Shinji against Sakura from Day 1 to break her completely to become his Grail.
Hell, it's a miracle Sakura wasn't already mind broken when Shirou even meets her in the backstory(or when she saw him) but basically being told that there is no hope and no salvation from the shit you are going through against a Mage that can absolutely kill you for free if you tried to rebel... is something I can't believe I have to say wouldn't work.

Sakura has zero connection to her Origin because Zouken wasn't training her for that at all and Zouken would never give her the ability to fight back. Even as Dark Sakura, the only reason she can even USE Magecraft is due to Angra Mainyu's assistance I think and she STILL sucks at it, only knowing the barest of basics(Which was why Rin basically owned her in their battle).

I never can get the sheer hatred for Sakura because no shit she couldn't do anything in the situation she was in, she was there for YEARS and real life victims would break for less(Hell RIN TOHSAKA broke in a simulation of what she went through in a DAY in the Femme Fatale ending) and when she finally gets free, she wants to damn the world because of her absolutely fucked situation hit it's breaking point and she just wants to take it out on everyone...
I mean, you can say it's weird she barely appears in the previous 2 routes or we even get hints of the shit she went through in those same arcs but that's what makes Heaven's Feel so effective.
I guess I'm too much of a Sakura fan to understand people's issues with her.

[TheSeaDragon]

Tats a doubt of mine . Did tokiomi knew Zouken was zolgen, or he just tought he was just current matou head, very old but not 500 years old and same person as founder? I guess he didnt knew all, oterwise he sould have guessed someting was odd about that guy, and he bcomes really less inoccent about all

[chevkraken]

Sakura was sexually violated by Zouken for YEARS, ever since she was 4-6 years old and on top of that, he put Shinji against Sakura from Day 1 to break her completely to become his Grail.
Hell, it's a miracle Sakura wasn't already mind broken when Shirou even meets her in the backstory(or when she saw him) but basically being told that there is no hope and no salvation from the shit you are going through against a Mage that can absolutely kill you for free if you tried to rebel... is something I can't believe I have to say wouldn't work.

Sakura has zero connection to her Origin because Zouken wasn't training her for that at all and Zouken would never give her the ability to fight back. Even as Dark Sakura, the only reason she can even USE Magecraft is due to Angra Mainyu's assistance I think and she STILL sucks at it, only knowing the barest of basics(Which was why Rin basically owned her in their battle).

I never can get the sheer hatred for Sakura because no shit she couldn't do anything in the situation she was in, she was there for YEARS and real life victims would break for less(Hell RIN TOHSAKA broke in a simulation of what she went through in a DAY in the Femme Fatale ending) and when she finally gets free, she wants to damn the world because of her absolutely fucked situation hit it's breaking point and she just wants to take it out on everyone...
I mean, you can say it's weird she barely appears in the previous 2 routes or we even get hints of the shit she went through in those same arcs but that's what makes Heaven's Feel so effective.

actually for me on all that you said confort me the writing of the character is bad.

We should love Sakura because she couldn't do anything. It's not love, It's pity forced by the writing.

And the whole mind break rape feel really like a bad hentai doujin story for me. (and it's that because it's among the thing added to FSN to do it into a eroge, the proto Sakura was really different)

Kohaku is lovable because she is active, because she fight against the situation. Even in other route that her, she is still the one who made SHIKI kill his father and free herself alone. She is not a damsel in distress and she don't need to be saved.

And Fujino is not lovable but nothing in the writing make us feel empathy for her, it's an antagonist, a cold blooded killer. The whole rape thing is clearly just an excuse for her to justify her killing instinct.

If Nasu Kikoko wanted Sakura to be more lovable, he should have make her more active and made his background more subtile and not just ton of drama.

[TomPen94]

Tats a doubt of mine . Did tokiomi knew Zouken was zolgen, or he just tought he was just current matou head, very old but not 500 years old and same person as founder? I guess he didnt knew all, oterwise he sould have guessed someting was odd about that guy, and he bcomes really less inoccent about all

Doesn't really matter. Tokiomi is just a dick, knowledge of it wouldn't change anything for him. At least regarding his decision to give Sakura away.

[Hermitfold]

NGL I used to bait Mike too.

I'll never forget that one time I saw someone derail a 4chan thread just using Mike as a boogeyman.

Nasu says that things don't end up well post the first two routes, so her getting her life together in the one route she is free is logical.

Did he say that? See, I like Sakura just fine but stuff like this is why HF rubs me the wrong way sometimes. It makes it tougher to enjoy to enjoy the other routes.

[Takashi]

Technically, she was adopted to be an instrument in obtaining the holy grail and was basically a "gift" of sorts to his collaborator, he said it himself in Zero that his family would have the glory whether it was Rin who obtained the grail or if Sakura would, even if they killed each other for it.
If we think about it objectively, by the end, Rin will have the Second eventually, and Sakura obtained a permanent link to the other side, so she "has" the grail, pretty sure it was written somewhere that regardless of the details, for the Tohsaka Family, he'd consider it a win post HF.

It was on the context of them fighting for the holy grail and obtaining it. Literally becoming holy grail was fsn night original.

[TheSeaDragon]

I'll never forget that one time I saw someone derail a 4chan thread just using Mike as a boogeyman.



Did he say that? See, I like Sakura just fine but stuff like this is why HF rubs me the wrong way sometimes. It makes it tougher to enjoy to enjoy the other routes.

I get you, but then you could not enjoy hf bcause Saber. "You cant save everyone" tats it. Anyay, despite ambigous comments, Nasu will never write a true sequl to a specific rute so headcanon aboit Sakura fate post Fate and UBW is still fair game

PD : If tey dont like Sakua is fine, but peopl sould stop use Mik as boogeyman, most Sakura fans now are absolute chill

[Delastogos]

I'm fairly sure her life after those routes isn't particularly good.

[TheSeaDragon]

I know,, and as sad as it sounds, it makes sense. If she will be saved anyways, just wit some years of difference, and witout so big sacrifices , hF would be really less significant. Is also wy im not big fan of anime only UBW scene."she takin care of shinji wile smiling" , tougt i recall reading it was nasu stuff

Wat i said if we will likely never know any details