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Thread: Unpopular TM opinions you have

  1. #6981
    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    I get pissed on the whole 'servants are pages of a book' since it just feels like nasu desperately trying to get people to accept his philosophy and ideas, hell it sounds like a magi rationalization which fucking makes me laugh.
    How is this, of all things, something which feels like "nasu desperately trying to get people to accept his philosophy"?
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  2. #6982
    Quote Originally Posted by savepoints View Post
    How is this, of all things, something which feels like "nasu desperately trying to get people to accept his philosophy"?
    It personally feels like it ties into the 'ghosts cannot change the past' that we talked about, 'servants are bound to there story'.

    As you know several works have said its bad for them to influence or choose the present so it fels like that ties into this if that makes anyway.

    And what I mean by people who dont accept it, people are here for the servants, thats a fact, we want to see servants do great things, which the aforementioned philosophy goes against no?

  3. #6983
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors AAM1232's Avatar
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    I mean he didn't use it, and his attitude doesn't imply that having it means using it.

    The other parts of his myth (in Fate) regarding having everything is being conveniently ignored huh. So by the current logic, it's not contradictory for him to have gone and found it again later on.

    Saber was in FSN an almost dead person who made a contract, and not a HS yet. Later on per FGO she's a HS so the "rule" would be applied. And even then the "rule" isn't a hard thing that requires every matching detail as was discussed in the Questions thread, so ignoring those points for no reason is baffling.

  4. #6984
    Quote Originally Posted by AAM1232 View Post
    I mean he didn't use it, and his attitude doesn't imply that having it means using it.

    The other parts of his myth (in Fate) regarding having everything is being conveniently ignored huh. So by the current logic, it's not contradictory for him to have gone and found it again later on.

    Saber was in FSN an almost dead person who made a contract, and not a HS yet. Later on per FGO she's a HS so the "rule" would be applied. And even then the "rule" isn't a hard thing that requires every matching detail as was discussed in the Questions thread, so ignoring those points for no reason is baffling.
    Define story for heroic spirit, I want you to define it, is it the history or the myth?
    Last edited by Byegod; May 11th, 2020 at 05:25 AM.

  5. #6985
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors AAM1232's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    Define story for heroic spirit, I want you to define it, is it the history or the myth?
    It's both in Fate. And generally per Fate's versions/interpretations of the stories/histories of the characters. Doesn't change my point that you haven't figured out the right examples and ideas for your point.

  6. #6986
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Blastedspider's Avatar
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    And by the very nature of the myth such concept as "definitive version" isn't applicable in the first place.

  7. #6987
    Quote Originally Posted by AAM1232 View Post
    It's both in Fate. And generally per Fate's versions/interpretations of the stories/histories of the characters. Doesn't change my point that you haven't figured out the right examples and ideas for your point.
    Probably? feels like my thoughts are muddled here, sorry to bother

  8. #6988
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors AAM1232's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    Probably? feels like my thoughts are muddled here, sorry to bother
    It's not that much of a bother if you can figure out what you want to say and can explain why so, while acknowledging how stuff works in practice (like for example Karna getting screwed over at certain moments that leave him unable to win/survive).

  9. #6989
    Quote Originally Posted by AAM1232 View Post
    It's not that much of a bother if you can figure out what you want to say and can explain why so, while acknowledging how stuff works in practice (like for example Karna getting screwed over at certain moments that leave him unable to win/survive).
    It's just hard for my thoughts to come out coherent most of the time, which sucks for a place like this

  10. #6990
    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    It personally feels like it ties into the 'ghosts cannot change the past' that we talked about, 'servants are bound to there story'.
    I mean more like how you can see "servants are like pages from a book" as trying to push the idea of "the dead should not lead the living". Like I actually don't understand the relation here. All the former is saying is that "what you see as a servant is merely a part of the person who once existed, and is not equivalent to their entire being". So I guess you're trying to say that "since they're 'incomplete' that's the same as saying they're wrong so they fundamentally cannot lead the living", which I think is just wrong for a lot of reasons if so, but please do elaborate on what you actually mean here because I'm quite lost.
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  11. #6991
    not really feeling it tbh Ratman's Avatar
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    It's a childishly hyper-idealist way of thinking that splits hairs, like a lot of stuff in there. 'Cause if you're borrowing a dead person's ideas, then that's not progress, you're regressing to something already tried instead of coming up with something on your own. You should make a personal contribution to society instead, like the complete adult you are with satisfied needs and a creative drive... unless!?

    When you try this argument in the real world, then you're of course going to hear that since Huang Shi never actually got to implement his ideas in life, then it's okay to try them out millenia later because after all, we've never had real communism.

  12. #6992
    Quote Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
    It's a childishly hyper-idealist way of thinking that splits hairs, like a lot of stuff in there. 'Cause if you're borrowing a dead person's ideas, then that's not progress, you're regressing to something already tried instead of coming up with something on your own. You should make a personal contribution to society instead, like the complete adult you are with satisfied needs and a creative drive... unless!?

    When you try this argument in the real world, then you're of course going to hear that since Huang Shi never actually got to implement his ideas in life, then it's okay to try them out millenia later because after all, we've never had real communism.
    Pretty good ngl. (Can't tell if thats towards me or nasu)

    But I feel like one issue is that a lot of servants have character development that sticks around, obvious example being Liz, which kinda against the staticness implied by 'pages of a record'
    Last edited by Byegod; May 11th, 2020 at 12:49 PM.

  13. #6993
    not really feeling it tbh Ratman's Avatar
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    well like all of us you're just trying to figure out what did he mean by this, so Nasu, obviously

    It gets funny with things like the Once and Future King, or how exactly star attribute servents are different in this regard. Man had ideas, but star servants had the right ones, even though there are no verifiable right ones because of the alternate timelines and the setting's varied eschatology.

  14. #6994
    Quote Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
    well like all of us you're just trying to figure out what did he mean by this, so Nasu, obviously

    It gets funny with things like the Once and Future King, or how exactly star attribute servents are different in this regard. Man had ideas, but star servants had the right ones, even though there are no verifiable right ones because of the alternate timelines and the setting's varied eschatology.
    Well clearly there are "right" ideas what with time culling/pruning and QTL, regardless of how deterministic that may be

  15. #6995
    Deadpan Dead People LegalLoliLover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by savepoints View Post
    I mean more like how you can see "servants are like pages from a book" as trying to push the idea of "the dead should not lead the living". Like I actually don't understand the relation here. All the former is saying is that "what you see as a servant is merely a part of the person who once existed, and is not equivalent to their entire being". So I guess you're trying to say that "since they're 'incomplete' that's the same as saying they're wrong so they fundamentally cannot lead the living", which I think is just wrong for a lot of reasons if so, but please do elaborate on what you actually mean here because I'm quite lost.
    But is that "can't" or "shouldn't"? Because anyone can lead after offing the competition.
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  16. #6996
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reign View Post
    Marisbury is a bit tricky because we don't have a lot of insight on him and mostly just have what other people have said about him.
    What he did to Mash was pretty magey though.
    I'm also basing this off what we see in Initium Other. He's calm to the point of being emotionless, and he cares about the greater good of humanity, but in a very removed, magus-like way with seemingly none of Kitsch's silliness or humanizing moments.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I always thought of the whole "ghosts have no right to change the world" was more along the lines of that the living are ultimately responsible for choosing what they want, whether it be original or borrowed, but the dead cannot actively choose for the living, and the living should not try to directly emulate the phantoms of bygone eras.
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  17. #6997
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six
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    It was probably most elucidated in the Extra scenario because of Twice ie. Extra Material

  18. #6998
    Quote Originally Posted by LJ3 View Post
    It was probably most elucidated in the Extra scenario because of Twice ie. Extra Material
    I thought that was more his stagnation fetish instead? also isnt that a bit sabotaged or at least iffy what with servants ruling the mooncell WITH hakuno who the ghost argument could also be applied too>

  19. #6999
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    I thought that was more his stagnation fetish instead? also isnt that a bit sabotaged or at least iffy what with servants ruling the mooncell WITH hakuno who the ghost argument could also be applied too>
    Because of the climatic quote Hakuno that rebukes Twice despite acknowledging the reality of stagnation in their world. That they are both ghosts no longer in their time, that they no longer have the right to decide humanity's future. Of course we still take action as the player to fight against Twice, but I can accept that over letting a world punish it self with endless war.

    It's why the final 'fight' is not against Saver, it's always been between Twice H. Pieceman and Hakuno Kishinami.

    Of course Extella shits the bed so I'm not defending it.

  20. #7000
    Deadpan Dead People LegalLoliLover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LJ3 View Post
    Of course Extella shits the bed so I'm not defending it.
    It's almost as if multiple points of view are valid, huh? Like I said, anyone can lead after offing the competition. Their own vitality is... irrelevant.
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