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Thread: Unpopular TM opinions you have

  1. #7321
    Quote Originally Posted by Blastedspider View Post
    Divine Construct =! weapon of gods.
    Technically was it even divine contruct, wasnt it more 'things not made by humans'.

    Hell what is the definition of DC

  2. #7322
    魔力供給 Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    And honestly one issue is that if every time he appears he needs plot induced stupidity for people to win, or for the villians to provide a challenge.

    Thats bad fucking writing.
    Babylonia did not have that tho. He literally saw the future that there is no chance of beating Tiamat whatsoever (since she is immune to everything in Mesopotamia prior to dropping down the underworld), and that is when he completely changed his approach, actually using tactics to buy time for Chaldea - the wild card - to come and change the outcome. Even more, Tiamat wasn't even actually trying, she's trying to kill herself constantly, and he still could not win alone. And that was his most recent appearance. The "arrogant" card has not been used since FSN.


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  3. #7323
    リビングデッド Living Dead Glazy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily Emilio View Post
    The "arrogant" card has not been used since FSN.
    Eh that card has been definitely use in F/sf with the whole "lol who needs the key" that bite his ass in vol 5

  4. #7324
    魔力供給 Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glazy View Post
    Eh that card has been definitely use in F/sf with the whole "lol who needs the key" that bite his ass in vol 5
    That's a different writer tho. The even more recent Gil jobbing is to Karl in Extella Link and was captured to be used as mana battery (Higashide's writing).

    Byegod's complaints are mostly towards Nasu's writing like FSN and CCC so I only mentioned Nasu stuffs.

    Beside, I'm more talking about a case like versus Shirou, underestimating his opponent due to arrogance. SF is more that he did not expect the key could be used by a yandere goddess.


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  5. #7325
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Comun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glazy View Post
    Eh that card has been definitely use in F/sf with the whole "lol who needs the key" that bite his ass in vol 5
    Gil got summoned in a random cave in the middle of nowhere. The key would only be a liability in the very off chance that he faced an enemy that knew about the GoB beforehand, was targetting Gilgamesh specifically enough to go look for the key, and was capable of using it. He was reasonable enough in not being worried about it.

  6. #7326
    SUPER, INAZUMA, KICK!!!!!! GarlandGreene's Avatar
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    To me, Gil jobbing is much less of an issue than him pulling an Ocelot (MGS) and feeling like an entire different character altogether in every other iteration that he's in. Initially in F/SN, he's this simple arrogant asshole who wants to marry Saber and/or watch the world burn. Not exactly the most complex character out there but it works and his actions and outcome remain relatively consistent throughout all 3 routes. Then we have Fate/Zero who portrays him as this wine sipping devilish mastermind who waxes philosophy and is seemingly very calm and calculated underneath his zasshu spewing demeanor (a portrayal which ufotable then tried to mimic for UBW as well...just to end up creating more plot holes and question marks). In FGO, he's now some great benevolent ruler that people look up to and who could do no wrong (but that's ok since he's super popular and all). Oh and he gets to have a newfound ability to immediately revive himself because the plot demands it and because fanservice.

  7. #7327
    『It's not my fault』 Roxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lily Emilio View Post
    Beside, I'm more talking about a case like versus Shirou, underestimating his opponent due to arrogance. .
    he still did that against True Archer where he didn't take him seriously and used merodach instead EA,

  8. #7328
    HSTP 500 Internal S ervant  Error aldeayeah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarlandGreene View Post
    Initially in F/SN, he's this simple arrogant asshole who wants to marry Saber and/or watch the world burn. Not exactly the most complex character out there but it works and his actions and outcome remain relatively consistent throughout all 3 routes.
    Dunno, he's pretty different in each route IMO. Particularly HF.

    Fate is the Saberfan Gil who mostly goes along with Kirei's plan.
    UBW is more "I'm actively out to burn the world" and is at his most villanous.
    HF is more "dude even I have standards" and is at his most heroic (as far as FSN goes)

    Then FHA introduces a more sympathetic side of him, and the rest is history.

    His villain characterization in FSN is kinda shallow and one-note (and gets demoted to comedic relief as soon as FHA), so it's just natural that they explore different avenues for his further roles.

    This is a very natural evolution for popular villains in pop culture (a good example is Magneto from X-Men, who through the years has gone from mustache-twirling villain, to misguided fanatic, to antihero, to dark hero, to an outright messianic role, and back and forth again)
    Last edited by aldeayeah; June 3rd, 2020 at 02:52 AM.
    As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero.

  9. #7329
    魔力供給 Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roxas View Post
    he still did that against True Archer where he didn't take him seriously and used merodach instead EA,
    Not quite.

    Ea is Gil's most valued treasure, one need to understand that. You don't want to whip out your big stick right away against an unknown enemy. That's called having a brain. Evaluate the enemies with your smaller attacks first then go for the big gun. Contrary to a lot of fan debates, "lul Ea" is not an instant win. It's not the end-all-be-all NP that will solve all problems against all of enemies Gil's facing. Alcides literally mocked Gil into pulling out Ea. Using it means the possibility of falling into the trap. Their next fight Gil actually fought seriously, aiming at the openings not fully covered by the pelt. And he was not losing to the point of having to pull out Ea like vs Shirou. Ishtar interfered at that point to give him the L.

    There are only 2 instances that he pulled out Ea right away. One is versus Enkidu because they knew each other for so well that's just how they greet each other. The other time is when he shows up against Tiamat in the underworld, already holding Ea and ready to go. He's more serious than the anime version in that one scene.

    Meanwhile back when fighting Shirou, he saw what Emiya could do, he also willingly let Shirou deploy UBW thinking he can deal with it. And THEN he's still reluctant to pull out Ea, and it cost him. None of the fights with Alcides had him facing similar situation as versus Shirou to the point that he must use Ea.


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  10. #7330
    SUPER, INAZUMA, KICK!!!!!! GarlandGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aldeayeah View Post
    Dunno, he's pretty different in each route IMO. Particularly HF.

    Fate is the Saberfan Gil who mostly goes along with Kirei's plan.
    UBW is more "I'm actively out to burn the world" and is at his most villanous.
    HF is more "dude even I have standards" and is at his most heroic (as far as FSN goes)

    Then FHA introduces a more sympathetic side of him, and the rest is history.

    His villain characterization in FSN is kinda shallow and one-note (and gets demoted to comedic relief as soon as FHA), so it's just natural that they explore different avenues for his further roles.

    This is a very natural evolution for popular villains in pop culture (a good example is Magneto from X-Men, who through the years has gone from mustache-twirling villain, to misguided fanatic, to antihero, to dark hero, to an outright messianic role, and back and forth again)
    That's because the circumstances are different, just like how Shirou develops differently and obtains a distinct/contrasting answer in every subsequent route as well.

    Having a simple and straightforward characterization doesn't necessarily imply that he's a bad villain though. Emperor Palpatine in the original trilogy is essentially that as well. He plays the part of a mustache-twirling bad guy but still manages to be memorable while fitting the role remarkably well.

  11. #7331
    Running away from Falconetti AsGryffynn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aldeayeah View Post
    Dunno, he's pretty different in each route IMO. Particularly HF.

    Fate is the Saberfan Gil who mostly goes along with Kirei's plan.
    UBW is more "I'm actively out to burn the world" and is at his most villanous.
    HF is more "dude even I have standards" and is at his most heroic (as far as FSN goes)

    Then FHA introduces a more sympathetic side of him, and the rest is history.

    His villain characterization in FSN is kinda shallow and one-note (and gets demoted to comedic relief as soon as FHA), so it's just natural that they explore different avenues for his further roles.

    This is a very natural evolution for popular villains in pop culture (a good example is Magneto from X-Men, who through the years has gone from mustache-twirling villain, to misguided fanatic, to antihero, to dark hero, to an outright messianic role, and back and forth again)
    FassGil when?!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSkipRow View Post
    To be fair, a lot of Servants would be stupidly overpowered if they got to use their powers creatively or properly.
    The whole point is that creativity is the actual superweapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by eddyak View Post
    Not really- he can pull one specific thing at a time and use it, or he can just toss a bunch of crap at random. There's some middle ground there, but it's not as if he can pull a Zerkerlot and pull out an axe, fight a top tier hero with it, let them get used to fighting that weapon, and then insta-switch it out with a spear and murderise them. He's also not super good with any weapon we've seen him use so far. Gate of Babylon isn't the end-all be-all of Noble Phantasms- it's incredibly dangerous, but then so is literally any Saber class hero with any sharp metal implement.

    He'll only have curse thingies if they qualify as a treasure, or something something humanity original. He's probably got cursed amulet type dealies, or Jafar's hypnosis snake staff or somesuch, but he isn't gonna open GoB and whoops! You've got Magic HIV! Guess you're dead now!
    Makes me wonder if Sabers can use carbon fiber swords.

    My main problem is the power levels invincibility bullshit. Like, even Marvel has a power bound past which even things like TOAA cannot stand against (Heart of the Universe). Nasu never established a "ultimate entity that can destroy literally everything I created, including Lostbelts, Parallel worlds and everything in Imaginary Space. When you go cosmic, you need a "ultimate reset button" entity that can say "ENOUGH!" and everyone dies.

    Gilgamesh being hopeless against Tiamat only drives that point home. It almost makes me wonder what would happen if a Supermassive Black Hole devoured the SS. Those things bend spacetime itself, so presumably even History hax would vanish.
    Ultima prophetiae, veni finis tempus;
    magnus ab integro saeclorum quod mortum. Finis magnus ordo.
    Iam redit Virgo Phaenomi regibus redeunt,
    nova progenies ad caelo surgit.
    Vestra puerorum, qui movere tempus ipsum, et rotam ferrea primum.
    Ac vestra lucis, omnes surgit futurum aureus, novo mundo nascens.

  12. #7332
    魔力供給 Lily Emilio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AsGryffynn View Post
    My main problem is the power levels invincibility bullshit. Like, even Marvel has a power bound past which even things like TOAA cannot stand against (Heart of the Universe). Nasu never established a "ultimate entity that can destroy literally everything I created, including Lostbelts, Parallel worlds and everything in Imaginary Space. When you go cosmic, you need a "ultimate reset button" entity that can say "ENOUGH!" and everyone dies.
    "The concept of omnipotent/almighty still cannot control everything on Earth" - Tesla, LB5.

    That's Nasu's answer. Even if there is an actual omnipotent, almighty being above all, said being will still lose to some Earth being who is happen to "Not bound by that being's omnipotence", because Earth is beyond all that stuffs...I guess.


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  13. #7333
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six forumghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AsGryffynn View Post
    My main problem is the power levels invincibility bullshit. Like, even Marvel has a power bound past which even things like TOAA cannot stand against (Heart of the Universe). Nasu never established a "ultimate entity that can destroy literally everything I created, including Lostbelts, Parallel worlds and everything in Imaginary Space. When you go cosmic, you need a "ultimate reset button" entity that can say "ENOUGH!" and everyone dies.
    Umm... Why???

    Seriously, one of the worst things about Marvel/DC is the constant resets so that nothing ever changes, if something does change it happens again slightly different in 3 issues, and also how would you like to re-read all the same plotlines again and again every reboot?

    Fuck. The. Cosmic. Reset. Button. It's the laziest literary device ever.

  14. #7334
    HSTP 500 Internal S ervant  Error aldeayeah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarlandGreene View Post
    Having a simple and straightforward characterization doesn't necessarily imply that he's a bad villain though. Emperor Palpatine in the original trilogy is essentially that as well. He plays the part of a mustache-twirling bad guy but still manages to be memorable while fitting the role remarkably well.
    Oh, he's great villain all right. But what I meant is, popular villains often drop part of their villainy when they are featured in new stories in roles closer to the protagonist side.
    As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero.

  15. #7335
    Summer Dioscuri Dream Sandstorm77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    Umm... Why???

    Seriously, one of the worst things about Marvel/DC is the constant resets so that nothing ever changes, if something does change it happens again slightly different in 3 issues, and also how would you like to re-read all the same plotlines again and again every reboot?

    Fuck. The. Cosmic. Reset. Button. It's the laziest literary device ever.
    Ditto. This kind of one thing that invalidates everything gimmick is always the worst thing about DC/marvel books, damn it's so dumb. Not only that, having something or someone that could wipe away everything just shits on nasu's theme of 'Fuck yeah humanity, carving our own path!!' so much and just makes every work meaningless.



    "An ideal is only an ideal after all. As long as you embrace that ideal, the friction with reality will continue to increase. So you will someday face reality and will have to pay for your compromises"



  16. #7336
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six Zork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarlandGreene View Post
    That's because the circumstances are different, just like how Shirou develops differently and obtains a distinct/contrasting answer in every subsequent route as well.

    Having a simple and straightforward characterization doesn't necessarily imply that he's a bad villain though. Emperor Palpatine in the original trilogy is essentially that as well. He plays the part of a mustache-twirling bad guy but still manages to be memorable while fitting the role remarkably well.
    I feel like that is because maniacal cackling evil old wizards are inherently entertaining tho

  17. #7337
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Menwearpink's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eddyak View Post
    Not really- he can pull one specific thing at a time and use it, or he can just toss a bunch of crap at random. There's some middle ground there, but it's not as if he can pull a Zerkerlot and pull out an axe, fight a top tier hero with it, let them get used to fighting that weapon, and then insta-switch it out with a spear and murderise them. He's also not super good with any weapon we've seen him use so far. Gate of Babylon isn't the end-all be-all of Noble Phantasms- it's incredibly dangerous, but then so is literally any Saber class hero with any sharp metal implement.

    He'll only have curse thingies if they qualify as a treasure, or something something humanity original. He's probably got cursed amulet type dealies, or Jafar's hypnosis snake staff or somesuch, but he isn't gonna open GoB and whoops! You've got Magic HIV! Guess you're dead now!
    I canít tell if this is sarcastic or serious given that most of your post did literally happen in the fate route.

    I donít know why you think he canít have deliberate volleys of cherry picked items, block all incoming attacks with super god shields, bring out curses (what are command seals by the way) magic buffs, anti-phenomena things and even magic cast tools when we know from both what heís done in canon, and also what is stated as stuff he could or would do.


    Gate of Babylon is definitely the end all. Itís everything, itís a culmination, and itís what makes him, along with his special seeing, the absolute top of heroic spirits undisputedly.

  18. #7338
    Beats By Matthew ft. Dr. Para Rafflesiac's Avatar
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    Weren't those Hakuno's Command Spells from the start? He just gave back what he took.
    Supports:


    Quote Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart View Post
    canon finish apo vol 3

  19. #7339
    I told 'em, I told 'em. Bugrit! eddyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menwearpink View Post
    I can’t tell if this is sarcastic or serious given that most of your post did literally happen in the fate route.
    No, what he did in Fate was bring out weapons with a bunch of different powers, and if you remember, he didn't manage to kill Saber.

    I don’t know why you think he can’t have deliberate volleys of cherry picked items, block all incoming attacks with super god shields, bring out curses (what are command seals by the way) magic buffs, anti-phenomena things and even magic cast tools when we know from both what he’s done in canon, and also what is stated as stuff he could or would do.
    I did say it has to be a thing. A physical object. It's a vault, it obviously doesn't have God Hand, it doesn't have Humanity's Treasure: A Cloud Of Cast Amplify Damage floating around in room #112.
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  20. #7340
    Bad News LeadDemon's Avatar
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    Just to clarify, the stuff regarding God Hand according to UBW animation materials is:

    "Your life, your legend, has been sublimated into a Noble Phantasm. It is only that kind of Noble Phantasm that I do not have. ---That is, I'm at a disadvantage."
    Rather than because it's not a physical object.

    We do also have cases where Gil has things like "lightning without form" and all that.

    Don't have a horse in this race, but did want to add that to the pot.

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