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Thread: Unpopular TM opinions you have

  1. #9261
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    It's just two different translations of the same word in Japanese (神秘).

  2. #9262
    Okay but how is it related to the argument?

    And ill add this question to you all, if the lostbelts are simulations, or at least partial, would it be wrong to think that would raise questions on the concept of mystery if simulated things have mystery?

  3. #9263
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    Okay but how is it related to the argument?

    And ill add this question to you all, if the lostbelts are simulations, or at least partial, would it be wrong to think that would raise questions on the concept of mystery if simulated things have mystery?
    Honestly, nothing about your argument makes any sense to me, so I cannot be of much help in this case.

  4. #9264
    Damn it, communication issues maybe?

    I guess i could say, how is simulation different from manufacturing or in essence 'duping' mystery?

  5. #9265
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    The specific ways in which Mystery is affected seems to be more nuanced that just "science".

    I'm not sure why you are expecting certain things to happen. What is your justification? I just don't get it.

  6. #9266
    Its a combo of 'notice weirdness or what i think is weirdness' which turns into dislike

    From a meta perspective i dislike mystery, its a combo of both a inherent dislike and I also notice things that seem off to me, plus I think the implication that im stupid for thinking mystery is stupid probably cements it as well

    Which is probably why im so flippant with my opinions nowadays, I expect to be called stupid which just hardens my anger further, I could ramble more on it but agian communication issues, its hard for me to put the vibe or 'notice' into words as to why.


    Like to me, mystery seems to be a resource, since magi flip out at waver just figuring out a simple spell it seems fairly fragile, yet any circumstance you think would affect mystery in some way or anyway never comes up, it feels like a resource that is finite but is actually infinite from implication

  7. #9267
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six madarra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    okay i gotta ask, whast the difference between mystery and mystics
    They both refer to the same term, its just that each word comes with its own set of inherent mental biases.

    Like most of your arguments use a mental bias of
    Replicable equal not mysterious > why doesnt the mystery fade

    Which doesnt work as we with
    Replicable doesnt equal not mystical >why doesnt the mysticism fade

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post

    Like to me, mystery seems to be a resource, since magi flip out at waver just figuring out a simple spell it seems fairly fragile, yet any circumstance you think would affect mystery in some way or anyway never comes up, it feels like a resource that is finite but is actually infinite from implication
    Well since every path to the root is only usable once you can argue that Waver figuring out that small spell makes it ineligible to reach the root.

    Since Rin and Luvia both know Gandr they wont reach the route with it

  8. #9268
    I dont really ever recall mystery ever being equated purely with people seeing something being fantastical, but more it being related to knowledge of how it functions or age

    Hence why touko is such a big deal as she appearenty found something not discovered by science if memory serves in case files? or one of the reasons

    And its a bit of more a combo of "understanding and or replicable = not mystery" is how I see it, but if anyone has a source i would take it.

    Like a week or two ago i asked if knowledge being destroyed would restore mystery, that was in relation to the bleaching as i was thinking 'shouldn't it affect mystery of the survivors spells/magic'

  9. #9269
    世はまさにパンテオン Comun's Avatar
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    Nasu says it's called Occult.

  10. #9270
    translation on how mystery works please /s

    As isnt it from knk, which has a bad translation and no other translation since?

    Or comun, is mystery tied to knowledge or if something is fantastical?

  11. #9271
    世はまさにパンテオン Comun's Avatar
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    This is the word used for it.

    I don't have access to the KnK script containing the original explanation.

  12. #9272
    nicht mitmachen Dullahan's Avatar
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    i can't be bothered to translate the relevant part in paradox spiral (/6 rasen mujun) right now so here is baka-tsuki

    Quote Originally Posted by bakatsuki
    "Indeed, it's bad. Although it wouldn't really matter socially, the power of your sorcery falls. Do you know the origin of the word 'mystery', Kokutou?"

    Touko-san asked that as she brought her body forward on the desk.

    "When you say mystery, do you mean the sort of mystery in mystery novels?"

    "In a way. Not the detective novel sort, but mystery in the mystical sense."

    "Yeah, I do. It's originally Greek, not English."

    "... Well, that's true. In Greek it means to close something. Signifying stagnation, concealment, and self-completion. You see, a mystery has meaning in the fact that it is a mystery. Keeping it hidden is a nature of the technique. A sorcery that has had its nature revealed can't become a mystery, no matter what kind of supernatural methods it uses. It's nothing more than another method. Once that happens, that sorcery instantly becomes weaker.

    Sorcery was originally magic too. In short, there was no question that the strength was pulled out from the origin that was its source. Should we imagine for a moment that there was something along the lines of a 'mystery that makes you rich'? Let's say that this has a strength of 10. If only one person knows it, they can use the entire force of 10 of its power. But if two people know it, that it gets halved into two units of 5 and gets used like that. See, it's gotten weaker, hasn't it? The way of expressing it may be different, but I think that this is a fundamental rule in regards to everything in this universe."

    I can't understand all of what Touko-san is saying, but I think I get the point she is trying to convey.

    If concealment and obscurement is the law of existence that thing called sorcery exists by, I understand why mages would be reluctant to reveal their sorcery in front of others.

    "In that case, you must do as you please where others can't see you, Touko-san."

    "Nope, I don't."

    Zkk, Touko-san started talking as she stubbed out the cigarette in her ashtray.

    "I wouldn't have a choice in a battle between mages, but otherwise I don't use it even if I'm alone. The only time I use sorcerous techniques is when it's required for a ritual, or in a ceremony in order to proceed to the next level.

    Some time around the medieval era or so, an organization called the Association was formed. Because of their excessive regulation of sorcery, the Association foresaw the degeneration of mages. So they took the power of their organization and turned sorcery itself into something that is never revealed. What they did was to take a mystery that was visible and turn it into a mystery that no one knew about. As a result, mystery began to disappear from society.

    In order to strictly enforce this, the Association made some pretty byzantine rules.

    For example, if a mage pulls a civilian into a magical phenomenon, the association will dispatch an assassin to kill that mage. This is done to destroy the entity that is harming the larger community of mages. ... That's probably where the myth that a mage that reveals himself to people loses his power came from.

    The Association tried to stop the degeneration of sorcery by reinforcing the attribute of concealment, and as a result, those mages that belonged to the Association came to not throw their sorcery around with abandon.

    There were mages who resented those restrictions and retreated into the countryside, but the Association holds enormous amounts of academic works and lands. Most of what a mage requires to live as a mage is monopolized by the Association. To not belong to the Association was to be the same as being the outcast in a village. If you wanted to do an experiment, all the territories where the node lines met were owned by the Association, and if you tried to learn sorcery, you couldn't obtain any texts, so you couldn't learn anything. Therefore, a mage who was not a member of the Association could not practice sorcery even if they wanted to. That's the power of a multitude. In that respect, it's very impressive."

    "Uh, Touko-san. In that case, does that mean I would have to join the Association too...?"

    Azaka's hesitantly interrupting voice somehow held a note of unease.

    "You don't have to, but doing so would be more convenient. It's not as if you can't come out once you go in. You are free to leave that place when you wish. Since they regard the fact that they aren't rulers very seriously."

    "But in that case there's no meaning to their extraordinary levels of concealment. Sorcery would spread if those who have learned magic enter the outside world."

    Upon hearing Azaka's reasonable opinion, Touko-san goes, Ahhh, and nods.
    かん
    ぎゅう
    じゅう
    とう

    Expresses the exceeding size of one's library.
    Books are extremely many, loaded on an oxcart the ox will sweat.
    At home piled to the ridgepole of the house, from this meaning.
    Read out as 「Ushi ni ase shi, munagi ni mitsu.」
    Source: 柳宗元「其為書,處則充棟宇,出則汗牛馬。」— Tang Dynasty


  13. #9273
    I actually did want to bring that up at some point, as i knew the etymology or idea came from that and stuff like mystery cults

    But i was gonna use it in contrast to the concept of all magic being heriditary in nasu.

    Though tbh the initial idea of mystery cults or sacred mysteries reminds me more of say... mage the awakening/ascension or say pact/pale by wildbow where you can be normal but become 'initiated' via ritual or have some kind of realization on the universe itself


    On the mecha god thing in the other thread, i do feel for me at least I think its also cause to find mycenean greece far more interesting than mecha stuff and lb5 would have been good for that

  14. #9274
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six madarra's Avatar
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    " They didnt do the thing I want" is a long standing problem in Fate. Usually as a result of some form of Parasocial relationship with the source material

  15. #9275
    祖 Ancestor Ideofago's Avatar
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    Byegod, the way words are used can vary with context. In a setting such as the Nasuverse, it may not be obvious, or you may not have understood it, but the words that are used for certain concepts may not align with your personal understanding of said words in a more neutral or common concept. This is not a problem, and if you keep trying to argue it, you're just going to annoy everyone. I ask you to learn how to deal with it.
    Call me 想φαγω.
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  16. #9276
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six OnesFleetingGlory's Avatar
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    Let's see the reaction to Aztec pantheon is composed of beings infected by extraterrestrial microorganisms comes LB7.



  17. #9277
    Quote Originally Posted by Temflakes403 View Post
    Byegod, the way words are used can vary with context. In a setting such as the Nasuverse, it may not be obvious, or you may not have understood it, but the words that are used for certain concepts may not align with your personal understanding of said words in a more neutral or common concept. This is not a problem, and if you keep trying to argue it, you're just going to annoy everyone. I ask you to learn how to deal with it.
    But hasn't mystery alwaqysw been tied to knowledge, im legit confused...


    Quote Originally Posted by madarra View Post
    " They didnt do the thing I want" is a long standing problem in Fate. Usually as a result of some form of Parasocial relationship with the source material
    >glances at thie size of this thread and the revenge fantasy of 'if you took over typemoon'

    Im pretty sure thats a huge part of the fanbase lets be real here,

  18. #9278
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six SpoonyViking's Avatar
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    I imagine Nasu is using "mystery" in the same sense as it's used in terms like "mystery cult", for example: knowledge that is concealed from everybody except the initiates.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Mind, I don't know Japanese, so I may be way off. But I'd say the way the word is used in the Nasuverse fits.

  19. #9279
    改竄者 Falsifier Petrikow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byegod View Post
    glances at thie size of this thread and the revenge fantasy of 'if you took over typemoon'

    Im pretty sure thats a huge part of the fanbase lets be real here,
    Good job reinforcing his point.

    Also, not everyone uses this thread in the way you do to complain about every single thing you find "weird".

    And the other thread has 200 replies.

  20. #9280
    Quote Originally Posted by SpoonyViking View Post
    I imagine Nasu is using "mystery" in the same sense as it's used in terms like "mystery cult", for example: knowledge that is concealed from everybody except the initiates.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Mind, I don't know Japanese, so I may be way off. But I'd say the way the word is used in the Nasuverse fits.

    I did mention mystery cults earlier actually

    Edit : And petrikow, i want to ask you to define mystery for me and its function in how it grows lesser, since legit i dont recall it ever having anything else to do with outside of knowledge or lack thereof, so yes i am confused at madarra's statement

    edit 2 : I guess ill add a second part, isnt that thing madarra was referring to part of a different touko talk, like how 'magic and tech are totally equal' or something like that
    Last edited by Byegod; December 9th, 2021 at 12:12 AM.

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