[Hollow Moon] Mahoutsukai no Yoru Translation Project

[Takashi]

Yes, that was kind of my head canon.

Kid Shirou had a standard Origin, then he died in a fire, and out of the fire came Sword Shirou, now with 100% more Avalon.

Same. I thought the same while reading fsn

[vimiani]

also, they used wrong Aoko expression in the last scene

this was changed in the final game, making it the same expression in the trailer would have involved file replacement, so I thought it was better to leave it how it was.

[Nikiri]

I guessed so

I wasn't really complaining, just after watching the trailer many times during past 8 years it kinda felt weird

[Namelesss]

"Mahou Tsukai No Yoru is over for now.
The sequel will come one day, somewhere, when the shooting stars will fall and twinkle in your hearts." - Kiniko Nasu, 2012

Hahahahaha, that's like saying every time I see the red moon or a full moon, I think of the tsukihime remake is finally coming. Though the twinkle in your hearts kinda hurts.

[fumei]

I'll post this here for good measure as well. Twitter thread, btw.

[aldeayeah]

I'll post this here for good measure as well. Twitter thread, btw.

4 is factually false.

The magecraft/magic thing is from insani's 2004 translation of the FSN demo, which predates the existence of Mirror Moon, and even the release of FHA, let alone the FSN anime. Hell, even old BL barely existed back then.

Of course, they also translated Reality Marble (or rather 固有結界) as "egomatrix", but hey.

This conversation happened approximately 210459760 times in BL history, here's a link to one.

not like that's an important matter, particularly in a standalone work such as this one, in which they'll surely beat the difference between MAJUTU and magic directly onto your brain via exposition regardless of the exact terminology used

ps: nasu totally played and ripped off mage the ascension kekekeke

[vimiani]

5 is factually false.

The magecraft/magic thing is from insani's 2004 translation of the FSN demo, which predates the existence of Mirror Moon, and even the release of FHA, let alone the FSN anime. Hell, even old BL barely existed back then.

Of course, they also translated Reality Marble (or rather 固有結界) as "egomatrix", but hey.

This conversation happened approximately 210459760 times in BL history, here's a link to one.

im ashamed for not noticing this before posting because i actually read that demo a while ago, im a failure...

[aldeayeah]

im ashamed for not noticing this before posting because i actually read that demo a while ago, im a failure...

No, you're a normal person. Terminology discussions are only very slightly less pointless than powerlevel discussions.

[4digitmen]

4 is factually false.

No, it's not. By saying the magecraft/magic originated from insani's translation, the statement is still correct. The origin isn't what we are talking about, it's at what point those became the accepted Fanon translations for the terms.

insani used those terms, but they never established anything in Fanon. We mention mirrormoon here as they were the ones who established Magic/Sorcery as the accepted Fanon translations. And then we proceed to mention HA's because after that point, Magecraft/Magic became the accepted Fanon terms. We do not like this change. Plain and simple.

[aldeayeah]

I was just being pedantic, I don't think anyone should care what exact words are used.

For additional pedantics, at one point (before the MM translation), the fanon was Thaumaturgy for majutsu, Magic for mahou and Prana for maryoku, because we all looked up to poor old arai and wanted to sound like him.

If I were you, I wouldn't engage in this discussion at all, and if anyone asked, I'd just say I used the terms I liked best (which, compared to something as nebulous and fickle as "accepted fanon", sounds more sensible to me).

But with a generous enough donation, you might change my preferences! Hell, make it generous enough and I'll hire Quibi to make a switch, so that you can change the terminology in the very game settings!

j/k rock on

[fumei]

4 is factually false.

The magecraft/magic thing is from insani's 2004 translation of the FSN demo, which predates the existence of Mirror Moon, and even the release of FHA, let alone the FSN anime. Hell, even old BL barely existed back then.

Of course, they also translated Reality Marble (or rather 固有結界) as "egomatrix", but hey.

This conversation happened approximately 210459760 times in BL history, here's a link to one.

not like that's an important matter, particularly in a standalone work such as this one, in which they'll surely beat the difference between MAJUTU and magic directly onto your brain via exposition regardless of the exact terminology used

ps: nasu totally played and ripped off mage the ascension kekekeke

Ah, well I'll have to take the fault for that one. Either way, the point of the tweets stand, in that we have chosen magic over magecraft because we (or most of us, at least) perceive it as just better in pretty much every way.

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If I were you, I wouldn't engage in this discussion at all, and if anyone asked, I'd just say I used the terms I liked best (which, compared to something as nebulous and fickle as "accepted fanon", sounds more sensible to me).

To be honest, we're not exactly opening up for discussion with these tweets as much as we're trying to explain our reasoning in a single easy-to-access place. Even though some

idiots

people

have already replied to the tweet with the likes of "and this is how you just confuse a fandom further", we don't really care. It's not that hard, honestly.

[Leftovers]

There's no need for any sort of justification beyond aesthetics for which term to use, let alone what the most accepted term is. It should be evident through context alone which is which.

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that said, never let the chance pass by to make fun of anyone trying to be cool and erudite by pointing out how akshually magecraft and prana and moonlit world and elephants were just made up by some guy and you shouldn't use them

this is our cultural heritage

[AAM1232]

I mean the only real quibble would be prana, since it did become official in Extra as something else entirely.

[Comun]

And Sorcerer has been used as furigana for 妖術者 in pretty much every story the term has appeared.

[Tenshi]

And Sorcerer has been used as furigana for 妖術者 in pretty much every story the term has appeared.

Can you give me a light on this? Aside Shimosa and Requiem this was already used before? I know it's a little off topic but I'm in doubt now

[Comun]

It's consistently sprinkled here and there for Heian era Servant sheets, but as far as I know, Shimousa and Requiem are the only stories where the term is relevant and it gets the Sorcerer furigana in both them.

[Tenshi]

I see! Thanks!

[Comun]

that said, never let the chance pass by to make fun of anyone trying to be cool and erudite by pointing out how akshually magecraft and prana and moonlit world and elephants were just made up by some guy and you shouldn't use them

I don't believe that's the case for magecraft vs magic, but it's important to weed out outdated translations to avoid our frequent discussion on completely wrong premises. Demon/Daemon/whatever they translate 悪魔 as, or Beast of Alaya, for example, were perfectly fine translations back in 2009, but nowadays they're awfully misleading due to FGO introducing the completely unrelated concept of Beasts (misunderstanding further aggravated by one Beast overlapping with the Monster of Gaia), lots of non-悪魔 demons and finally making the 悪魔 concept relevant in Salem, a context where it would be extremely silly not to translate it as Devils.

The Prana and Sorcerer examples AAM and I mentioned feel less relevant since people don't argue about that and those translations are already generally considered outdated, but they can also potentially be a case of this with further developments.

[AAM1232]

I believe Daemon is a TM Wikia classic when that term in JP wasn't given a proper English TL, and one guy went crazy with the editing cause he was upset by that.

From Fallacies's recollection:

On the Wikia, I made an elaboration of "ma" in the context of Nasu, and then of "Oni" and "Demons"

A certain Wikia editor / Reddit poster decided that he didn't like that I left "ma" untranslated, and decided to rename the article "demon," despite "ma" not specifically referring to a demonic entity per the general understanding in popular media.

He then renamed every instance of the word "Demon" in the Wikia to "Daemon," despite the fact that this would probably be taken to generally refer to the concept per computer science. Incidentally, "Demon" is the standard translation of 悪魔 (akuma).

He then publicized his great contributions to the Wikia in Reddit.

The result is that the Demons / Daemons articles on the Wikia are complete trash. Also as a consequence (because the guy edit-warred me constantly), I decided not to continue bothering with the editing of the Wikia.

Because my name appears in the Wikia article's history, and because the editor went on to randomly smear me in Reddit, people like this guy (unrelated reddit idiot) above occasionally insult me without provocation.

[Leftovers]

I don't believe that's the case for magecraft vs magic, but it's important to weed out outdated translations to avoid our frequent discussion on completely wrong premises. Demon/Daemon/whatever they translate 悪魔 as, or Beast of Alaya, for example, were perfectly fine translations back in 2009, but nowadays they're awfully misleading due to FGO introducing the completely unrelated concept of Beasts (misunderstanding further aggravated by one Beast overlapping with the Monster of Gaia), lots of non-悪魔 demons and finally making the 悪魔 concept relevant in Salem, a context where it would be extremely silly not to translate it as Devils.

The Prana and Sorcerer examples AAM and I mentioned feel less relevant since people don't argue about that and those translations are already generally considered outdated, but they can also potentially be a case of this with further developments.

That's beside the point. Insofar as the rendering of terminology comes down to convention as much as accuracy, functional and well-established terms that aren't flat-out wrong have their purpose in fandom usage to avoid periphrasis or using romaji like a weeb, so long as context can carry through the meaning.

In regards to your example, not everything has to be an absolute term; the 悪魔 doesn't have to be a Demon but a demon or devil or modified to mean an incarnated demon or a true demon or whatever context demands - the same can be said of the need to have 魔術 be Magic so as to align with Magic Circuits, Magic Crests and so on, as though the word 'magic' (having or apparently having supernatural powers) cannot be used to describe these supernatural apparatuses whatever the practice of 魔術 is called.

怪物 is just a more accurate translation so there's nothing to contest there. It's not about never letting go of the terminology passed down for generations no matter what, but understanding the necessity of fanmade terms and the validity of their use in TM discourse. If it comes down to disagreement, someone will always pull out the runes.