Mysterious Story of the Imperial Capital Holy Grail - Fate/type Redline

[Holiday]

Here's the source on prime Zouken:

Question: How good of a mage was Zouken in his prime?
Nasu: Equivalent to Gordolf (an average third-tier noble mage) times ten.
Takeuchi: Make it easier to understand and be more specific.
Nasu: If we were to say his prime was "before joining up with the Einzberns", he would fare well even against a Servant, and can even win (probably against one Servant) under good conditions. He's a Pride around level seventy.
Takeuchi: How many Kariyas would it take?
Nasu: Hohoho. No matter how many zeroes you get, it's still zero.

On the same topic, there's this part from Einzbern Consultation Room:

Taiga: Wait, what about that superhuman fight at the end? The all-out battle between a man with lifeless eyes and a man corrupt to the core. They clearly went way beyond what humans can do.
Irisviel: It was a fight where they each had powerful backups they could use. Kiritsugu had Time Alter magic and Saber's Noble Phantasm. Time Alter magic allowed him to speed up his internal flow of time, at the cost of damaging his body. Saber's Noble Phantasm healed this damage as well as the lethal injury he sustained, rescuing him from the brink of death. Put simply, he moved at high speeds and was incredibly tough. As for the fiendish priest, he's highly skilled in Chinese kempo and had the Command Spells he inherited from Father Risei. Command Spells are consumable "Special Enchantments", so he could explosively strengthen his muscle power by using one. It basically works just like Saber's Magical Energy Release. They both made full use of their skills, experience, and secret tricks in a superhuman battle.
Taiga: Could either of them at that time have beaten a Servant?
Irisviel: Let's see... They could, depending on their methods. They have a very good chance against an Assassin whose presence is revealed or a Caster in close combat. However, against Servants specializing in hand-to-hand combat, they'd need another condition in their favor.
Taiga: Another condition... Like suitability or the element of surprise, right? We see pride only too often in "Fate"!

I think the Association has more than enough skilled fighters and powerful artifacts at their disposal to put together a team of a dozen or more prime Kiritsugus and Kireis if they needed to, and to come up with a strategy that would yield the necessary conditions for them to defeat a Servant. The real question is whether they would be able to stop infighting long enough to do so.

[Takashi]

You guys are forgetting nobu is an archer. Nobu doesn't need to walk around . She can destroy military outposts before. Killing the witnesses is the most basic thing. How would association even know there is a servant in the first place. It is supposed to be a myth. Just because something explodes, people don't reach a conclusion that it's done by a supernatural cause. Simple as that. There are more factors that that. They would only make a move if the secrecy is endangered.

[madarra]

Implying the association and church isnt permanently keeping a eye on Germany's action cuz magic artefacts and spear of destiny and any other Thule society reasons

[Deathhappens]

Implying they simply couldn't wreck the country in two minute tops. Not a single weapon would be usable against nobu.

Yeah, no. Servants are nowhere near this destructive, not even top tier Divine Spirits could wreck the entire country in minutes, and even if Nobu no-sells bullets her Master sure doesn't. Not to mention there are presumably magi living in the area that would take exception to being annihilated by a jumped-up medieval warlord with a bunch of matchlocks.

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She is Medusa's expy after all, so it makes sense.

She is? lol

[neveron]

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She is? lol

The Koha-Ace version didn't really have any original characters beyond the new Servants: the protagonist was Kohaku, secondary protagonist Akiha, the sleazy officer was Shinji, purple haired lady was Rider, saberface girl was Saber, etc.

[bassgs435]

Well there was Hitler as the master of Caster

[neveron]

Well there was Hitler as the master of Caster

Please, that's the unnamed führer.

But also yeah that's the one exception to it, I guess, although being a historical figure it's arguable whether or not it's an "original" character. Also IIRC they don't actually get to do much?

[Takashi]

Destroying a country , I don't mean literally lol. No there ain't a magi family comparable to servants in america. Even the strongest one is only made recently made bazdillot family. They don't have any counter to a servant in general in mystery.

[Alfredo845]

i still love how hilarious her name is. literally Rider in German

It should be clarified that that will probably not be his name, it is the name of his counterpart Koha-Ace, they will probably change it in the same way that they changed Major Matou to Major Magatsu

You guys are forgetting nobu is an archer. Nobu doesn't need to walk around . She can destroy military outposts before. Killing the witnesses is the most basic thing. How would association even know there is a servant in the first place. It is supposed to be a myth. Just because something explodes, people don't reach a conclusion that it's done by a supernatural cause. Simple as that. There are more factors that that. They would only make a move if the secrecy is endangered.

First: I don't think Nobunaga can do that, even though they are of the same class the Archers specialize in different things, like Billy the kid who doesn't have the same destructive power as most but he makes up for it with other abilities, in Nobunaga's case I don't think one of her specifications is distance, I highly doubt that she has the same range as Archers like Emiya or Arash.

Second: Even if it had the same range, that plan is so stupid that it would never work, it is true that we do not know exactly the maximum range but we have never seen it shoot beyond a city, in that range it is perfectly possible to notice that the attacks that are decimating military bases and murdering civilians they come out of nowhere, and by that time photography already existed.

Third: It is impossible that the association is not aware of what is happening, it is so stupid even to think that that I do not even have to say why.

Fourth: You are exaggerating the indifference of the association, we have seen him act for much lesser things than he is, this kind of thing would cause him a lot of problems if he were simply ignored, I do not want to elaborate further because I already explained it in detail in my previous comment.

Fifth: Again you are omitting the Holy Church, it is dedicated to confronting beings that threaten humanity as dead apostles and that kind of thing, I think a spirit from the past that goes through a country destroying military forces and murdering thousands of civilians as your stupid plan suggests it is definitely much worse than a normal dead apostle and they would act immediately to fix the situation.

Destroying a country , I don't mean literally lol. No there ain't a magi family comparable to servants in america. Even the strongest one is only made recently made bazdillot family. They don't have any counter to a servant in general in mystery.

Regardless of whether or not there are, that doesn't take away from the fact that it would be another reason for the association to get involved as they are still members of it, although not that they need another reason to start.

[Takashi]

She has enough range to target multiple air crafts. And she can fly. They will only know after it happened . They weren't omniscient that they would know everything that's happening like otherwise they would have stopped the holy grail ritual in America before it happened. Counter of church is mostly people dead apostle or rouge magi. Association more or less could only know of the fact it happened after damage is done. This is 1945. The word doesn't travel that fast. Holy church counters dead apostle and stuff not this. It's pointless to even talk about it lol

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And not to mention it's a big ass doubt that anyone can see nobu with a single command boost blazing through the country. Holy church also dispatches aftrry getting a report by that point everything will be said and done.

[madarra]

Kirei is confident he can take on True Assassin if he doesnt have a master cuz hes no more that a evil spirit, so yes this does kinda fall into the things the church handles, rogue magi and evil spirits.

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Heck, rando priest on alimango island can have the whole place burned down by nightime. How long do you think it takes them in a first world country.

[Alfredo845]

The association is not omniscient but neither are they so stupid as not to notice that these kinds of things are the work of magicians.

The point is still standing, he was able to point them because she was flying right next to him.

It would take her at least weeks to bring down a country like the United States, more than enough time for things to go very badly for her.

Knowledge may not travel that fast but I am sure that after attacking ten times practically the whole country will know about it.

The Holy Church takes care of everything they consider "heresy", the fact that we have only seen them fight against dead magicians and apostles does not mean that it is the only thing they are in charge of.

Also this case would continue to count as a rogue magician who is harming civilians.

[Takashi]

Taking down military bases would take a week oh please. The country will be crippled if you take down the leaders. Again that is only possible if they notice it. They are conservative and don't care much about what happens outside of revealing secrecy. By the time if they found out, they would have left the country. Holy church only sends executors to DA. The amount of time it would take to reach American continent it would have been done for churches. They wouldn't care about things that are irrelevant to them. Such as world war and sucv

[Alfredo845]

Do you suggest attacking the capital directly?

There's no way that won't end the magic revealed.

And even if you eliminate the leaders, that would not be anywhere near winning the war.

And know? Throughout this conversation, I have not ceased to be surprised by your ignorance on topics such as association, the Holy Church, Servants, politics, magicians, etc., and your refusal to accept that you are wrong when everyone else tries to tell you that you do.

And I have realized that you are a basket case, so I simply withdraw from this conversation and let others draw their conclusions.

And I apologize to others who have followed this conversation for how futile it is.

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On another topic, does anyone have any theory about what a Type redline is and why the series is called like that?

[Takashi]

Do you suggest attacking the capital directly?

There's no way that won't end the magic revealed.

And even if you eliminate the leaders, that would not be anywhere near winning the war.

And know? Throughout this conversation, I have not ceased to be surprised by your ignorance on topics such as association, the Holy Church, Servants, politics, magicians, etc., and your refusal to accept that you are wrong when everyone else tries to tell you that you do.

And I have realized that you are a basket case, so I simply withdraw from this conversation and let others draw their conclusions.

And I apologize to others who have followed this conversation for how futile it is.

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On another topic, does anyone have any theory about what a Type redline is and why the series is called like that?

You yourself don't have any counter to anything. Blah blah blah association. When I countered every argument but go on lol.. imagine bullshitting now that you can't counter. You didn't give an argument that would make me wrong how am I supposed to accept it anyway lmao

[SpoonyViking]

Please, that's the unnamed führer.

But also yeah that's the one exception to it, I guess, although being a historical figure it's arguable whether or not it's an "original" character. Also IIRC they don't actually get to do much?

Were they literally Hitler, or just a body double?

[Comun]

He's a body double trying to use the Grail to become the real Hitler.

[Cylascream]

a body double, they also said that the true hitler somehow died before his actual death in this timeline I think. I kinda want them to use the actual hitler in redline lmao, just to see the chaos

[Hawkeye]

Okay, I don't really want to be involved here, but....

1. America is FUCK HUGE! and consists of 50 states each with their own governor etc. (Maybe not in the 1930s, when did Alaska happen?) many with their own military installations and taking into account that we're dealing with a world where Japan has at least 4 Magecraft divisions, there's basically no reason the US itself wouldn't have some BPRD shit going on in the background for just such an eventuality as magical attack. Even assuming that their magic pales in comparison to a servant, Nobu simply doesn't have the speed to cover the requisite distance in any decent time before word of her existence got out. Even in the 1930s, communication could be transferred around the world in less than a day, even her most vicious attack isn't gonna guarantee you've ganked every morse operator or radio man that could possibly get the word out and that's just active communication. If Nobu suddenly wipes a base off the face of the Earth, it wouldn't be long for people to go "Hang about, where'd X go? We should worry about that". At which point all the other important shit goes into lockdown. This is all simple logistics, Nobu, while insanely potent compared to the weaponrry of the time, is not some infallible god machine, time and effort expended still apply to her as do certain human weaknesses, like not being able to see through buildings or out the back of her own head.

2. I don't think the Association would bother their arses to get involved, like somebody said, their interest is secrecy, so long as no faction is actively taking their magic to the world stage (e.g. Japan announcing the existence of its servants and their Holy Grail bomb or whatever) using it in combat probably isn't gonna make them take action, they'll probably just monitor the situation to ensure the groups involved keep a lid on it, but they're probably not gonna take an active stance, and again, this is not implying they lack the ability to observe or interfere, just the willingness to do so more than they have to. The association has existed since before Christ to my understanding, they've literally seen empires fall and not done crap, so whether or not Japan can take out the US using magic is irrelevant to them so long as nobody says the M word out loud.

To get back to the original question. The primary reason they aren't just dropping servants into the American heartland is that its a massive waste of resources compared to just keeping them where they are. Nobu gains advantage in Japan, is basically invincible to anything the Americans could deploy on sea or air and has a deployment time in the space of a few hours. If they moved her to the States, her deployment time becomes days, she loses her home field bonus and they no longer have matchlock superman defending their own front. Meanwhile, you'd need to chase her with manpower to secure the foothold she creates otherwise, while you've effectively harassed the enemy, the sheer difference in numbers and supplies means you've only winged them and not done any real harm. The reason this plan would work with Berserker is because he lacks the need for any kind of support, he's not a siege weapon, he's the nuclear option, he's not a gift to the war effort like Nobu, or a Special Ops nightmare like Izo, he's a walking disaster and his sole purpose would be to march across the land murdering shit and destroying American morale.

[Lobo]

By the way, since no one has commented on it, here is the cover page from volume 2:

Little update on this, vol. 2 comes out tomorrow (December 4th on Japan)