Create-A-Servant 3

[Anju Addams]

This is the only point I'm going to jump in on in this discussion. In the case of the Mesoamerican pantheon, it's no secret that they were a sentient Alien Virus that rode in on the meteor that nuked the Dinosaurs, and given that the Mesoamerican gods were probably lurking around for millions of years before the advent of humanity as a species, the confusion is completely justifiable. The ancient Aztecs probably thought that their gods were spirits who jumped from host to host, and in many ways they weren't entirely wrong.

That's...actually an interesting interpretation now that I think about it. It would certainly explain the various myths regarding the world cycles in Mesoamerican mythology especially the Five Suns Legend in Aztec myth where the Sun God was a position taken by various gods. The Aztecs could have seen their Sun God change hosts and took that as a spiritual change that affected the world - maybe even literally changing the God's personalities like we've seen Pseudo-Servant hosts do to their Divine Entities! Huh. Still not too keen on the space-virus stuff but...wouldn't that kinda would make total sense?

[AAM1232]

Which is stupid. Why can't Lu Bu be just a regular guy instead of all this sci-fi bullshit. You expect me to believe Feudal China had mecha?



I had a problem with how it was implied that these aliens/spacevirus pretended to be divine beings to non-European cultures who were too 'primitive' to know better and that they were being deceived but that western religions like Christianity and Norse were apparently completely accurate. Imagine if the same thing was revealed for African, Islamic or Native American pantheons. There would be an uproar.

However, as someone said - I may be reading into this too much but it still rubs me the wrong way somewhat.



Same problem I have with Wu Zetian. Her character is great and I have a soft spot for her design due to it being made by the Disgaea artist but why is she a loli? IIRC there was an aged up version of her in the Agartha manga adaptation who looks way better. Qin Shi Huang's old design was better too, but I have more problems with him than that.



Cthulhu shit is fine although my problem with it lies in the fact that they are presented as generic space monsters rather than unfathomable monstrosities. However, that's always been a problem with most adaptations of the series regardless.

Nezha and Xiang Yu were mechanical as well, and XY only got further upgraded in LB3. They both predate Lu Bu, so yeah, you should probably accept that China had mecha stuff not everyone could understand.

Define "pretended to be Divine". As far as we know, receiving human faith and kinda falling into the general world order makes you as Divine as other Elementals who were upgraded or former Gods who were downgraded (like the Greeks in PHH). And we haven't even seen God/Allah and a lot of other Pantheons, so why exactly is this a problem?

Since when are Cthulu stuff presented as generic space monsters? We haven't even seen one yet. You should probably read the Abby/Hokusai mats and Hoku's Trial Quest and correct yourself.

[Anju Addams]

Nezha and Xiang Yu were mechanical as well, and XY only got further upgraded in LB3. They both predate Lu Bu, so yeah, you should probably accept that China had mecha stuff not everyone could understand.

True. I'll just chalk it up to Age of Gods weirdness that got lost/stopped working over time and leave it at that.

Define "pretended to be Divine". As far as we know, receiving human faith and kinda falling into the general world order makes you as Divine as other Elementals who were upgraded or former Gods who were downgraded (like the Greeks in PHH). And we haven't even seen God/Allah and a lot of other Pantheons, so why exactly is this a problem?

I've been doing a bit of self-research over the last day and I don't really know what to think anymore but the gist of it is that around the Nordic Lostbelt release, my friends on Tumblr told me that because the Mesoamerican Gods were not originally true Divine Spirits but were initially mistaken as them compared to the fact that apparently Norse and Japanese Gods were always Divine/Nature Spirits, this unconsciously implied that the Mesoamerican culture was lesser than them - which was especially problematic as this is an argument often used by Nordic White Supremacists and Japanese Right-Wing Nationalists to devalue those they see as less pure. I'll do some more research into it however as I'm having mixed feelings on this.

Since when are Cthulu stuff presented as generic space monsters? We haven't even seen one yet. You should probably read the Abby/Hokusai mats and Hoku's Trial Quest and correct yourself.

I've already read those before but I suppose generic space monster wasn't the best term to use? It's complicated to explain but the point of Cthulhu Mythos is that the Outer Gods are ineffable, unknowable monstrosities so far beyond the human understanding of the universe and that everything we do is completely, utterly pointless. Taking away from that by making it so they can be fought against or that humans are somehow special (which Fate does) felt like it removed the entire thematic point of the mythos. Like I said, it's complicated but there's a good video explaining the problem with this that you can view if you're interested at all on here or PM (which is probably better).

[Der Ritter]

Lovecraftian horror is boring anyway, because it's just trying to hammer in the same nihilistic idea that everything is scary and we don't matter. Shocker, not everyone wants to be told that.

[Kabalisto Koga]

Lovecraftian horror is boring anyway, because it's just trying to hammer in the same nihilistic idea that everything is scary and we don't matter. Shocker, not everyone wants to be told that.

I think for that do we not Need These lovecraftians as our "indigenous" deities are demonstrating this enough .

[Anju Addams]

I think for that do we not Need These lovecraftians as our "indigenous" deities are demonstrating this enough .

That's unsually nihilistic coming from you Koga - especially as you write so many Divine Spirit Servants.

Lovecraftian horror is boring anyway, because it's just trying to hammer in the same nihilistic idea that everything is scary and we don't matter. Shocker, not everyone wants to be told that.

Can't say I could agree on that idea but I've also spent too much time in hospital to care about my place in the universe at this point. I suppose it could get annoying after a while though.

[RoydGolden]

Lovecraftian horror is boring anyway, because it's just trying to hammer in the same nihilistic idea that everything is scary and we don't matter. Shocker, not everyone wants to be told that.

Frankly I think the whole case that Lovecraft was a total nihilist who believed everything humans do was worthless is a total oversimplification of his work. In Lovecraft's works there's a few notable occasions when the human heroes end up triumphing over/escaping the eldritch gods and getting at least somewhat happy endings.

Cthulhu getting K.Oed with a boat is an obvious example (sure he regenerates afterwards but it at least bought humanity another proverbial day), but an even better one is The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath where the protagonist Randolph actually ends up outsmarting freakin' Nyarlahotep and coming out of the whole encounter better than he came into it. Nyarlahotep is left fuming and ranting childishly over being outsmarted.

So while Lovecraft obviously explores themes of despair and powerlessness in face of the unknown, I don't think it's fair to say that's the sum totality of his work. More accurate IMO is that Lovecraft is to elicit transcendent emotions in general, to take people outside of their ordinary realms of common sense. Horror in the face of something infinitely more powerful and beyond yourself is one such feeling, but so is wonder, or imagination. A lot of analysts of Lovecraft's work focus solely on his horror writings, which is understandable since that's most of what defines his work in popular culture, but Lovecraft wasn't just a horror writer.

[Kabalisto Koga]

That's unsually nihilistic coming from you Koga - especially as you write so many Divine Spirit Servants.



Can't say I could agree on that idea but I've also spent too much time in hospital to care about my place in the universe at this point. I suppose it could get annoying after a while though.

Nihilistic ? I didnt meant that in that sense our Gods are powerfull enough so that we Arent Need extraplanar beings for the role as Supernatural Beings also does that carrie for me the meaning that Nasu sees our deities as weaker as i am the oppinion on the example of the Greek Deities that their must not be neccesarily weaker as he Indian deities just are their better demonstrated the power of their Gods as also their were more Demigods or pure mortals that could in their power rival them as in comparison in the Greek Mythos-spehre only Herakless possesed the (potencial) power to rival them if example wise he would fight directly against Ares as Herakless is for me the Symbol of "Breaking the Borders".

beside the Greeks am i also the oppinion that the Nordic deities are equal in power them where i find it interesting that in comparison to the Greek mythology where Zeus ,the Indian where Indra ,the near east mythology here Hadad are having as Thunder/Lighning deity the Position as King of the Gods is here Thor the son of the King of the Gods ,just an Observation i wanted t o share

what is actually your oppinion About the Egypt Gods here do i also think that they are also apply the iceberg principle as especially here were beside eventually the pharaoh no human could have the power to atempt to fight the Gods but this is also partially owed due that their culturespehre function different then that from the Greeks ,and partially eventually as we dont know as much About the egypt comprehensive enough as About the Greeks but Maybe will that also Change as in the Cairo national Museum are lyieng dozens of Papyri,mummies etc unprocessed as the were About to build a new national Museum.

Do you understand what i mean ?

- - - Updated - - -

Frankly I think the whole case that Lovecraft was a total nihilist who believed everything humans do was worthless is a total oversimplification of his work. In Lovecraft's works there's a few notable occasions when the human heroes end up triumphing over/escaping the eldritch gods and getting at least somewhat happy endings.

Cthulhu getting K.Oed with a boat is an obvious example (sure he regenerates afterwards but it at least bought humanity another proverbial day), but an even better one is The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath where the protagonist Randolph actually ends up outsmarting freakin' Nyarlahotep and coming out of the whole encounter better than he came into it. Nyarlahotep is left fuming and ranting childishly over being outsmarted.

So while Lovecraft obviously explores themes of despair and powerlessness in face of the unknown, I don't think it's fair to say that's the sum totality of his work. More accurate IMO is that Lovecraft is to elicit transcendent emotions in general, to take people outside of their ordinary realms of common sense. Horror in the face of something infinitely more powerful and beyond yourself is one such feeling, but so is wonder, or imagination. A lot of analysts of Lovecraft's work focus solely on his horror writings, which is understandable since that's most of what defines his work in popular culture, but Lovecraft wasn't just a horror writer.

Alone fom reading your message to i get the message that unregarded the Level of it is in every Horror or fear is Always there concealed an light of hope and there also lies also the difference between Hero and normal human

[AAM1232]

True. I'll just chalk it up to Age of Gods weirdness that got lost/stopped working over time and leave it at that.



I've been doing a bit of self-research over the last day and I don't really know what to think anymore but the gist of it is that around the Nordic Lostbelt release, my friends on Tumblr told me that because the Mesoamerican Gods were not originally true Divine Spirits but were initially mistaken as them compared to the fact that apparently Norse and Japanese Gods were always Divine/Nature Spirits, this unconsciously implied that the Mesoamerican culture was lesser than them - which was especially problematic as this is an argument often used by Nordic White Supremacists and Japanese Right-Wing Nationalists to devalue those they see as less pure. I'll do some more research into it however as I'm having mixed feelings on this.



I've already read those before but I suppose generic space monster wasn't the best term to use? It's complicated to explain but the point of Cthulhu Mythos is that the Outer Gods are ineffable, unknowable monstrosities so far beyond the human understanding of the universe and that everything we do is completely, utterly pointless. Taking away from that by making it so they can be fought against or that humans are somehow special (which Fate does) felt like it removed the entire thematic point of the mythos. Like I said, it's complicated but there's a good video explaining the problem with this that you can view if you're interested at all on here or PM (which is probably better).

I mean that whole "X isn't of Earth so it's lesser than Y" is just BS. Amaterasu is of the Sun, yet she's viewed as a Buddha and high ranking goddess in some cultures in the universe. Some Divine Spirits were Elementals given faith, and some were just X stuff that had degraded/faded over time (like the PHH Greeks). I don't know who your Tumblr friends are, but they have clearly been smoking too much weed to have these kinds of "deep thoughts" and have clearly not read the works.

Cool, but the Cthulu Mythos has its own purpose that it serves for Nasu, I don't see why you'd look to outside stuff to see how Nasu uses them.

I'd guess to take this to another thread then, like Miscellaneous Thoughts or something then.

[Lily Emilio]

True. I'll just chalk it up to Age of Gods weirdness that got lost/stopped working over time and leave it at that.

China having mechanical stuffs with the Xians is not even something Fate made up. There's a literal mecha bull in Journey to the West that one of the Xians created, and Vietnam which had a long history of cultural exchange with China has a bow that can shoot like a gatling gun and a mecha horse. If you've read the Sanhaijing (it's like an encyclopedia for monsters in ancient China), there's even a race of people who does stuffs that later can be identified with ninjutsu and magic tricks involving complicated machinery (and Katou Danzou's material profile referenced this).

I've been doing a bit of self-research over the last day and I don't really know what to think anymore but the gist of it is that around the Nordic Lostbelt release, my friends on Tumblr told me that because the Mesoamerican Gods were not originally true Divine Spirits but were initially mistaken as them compared to the fact that apparently Norse and Japanese Gods were always Divine/Nature Spirits, this unconsciously implied that the Mesoamerican culture was lesser than them - which was especially problematic as this is an argument often used by Nordic White Supremacists and Japanese Right-Wing Nationalists to devalue those they see as less pure. I'll do some more research into it however as I'm having mixed feelings on this.

You need to stop going to tumblr, my honest advice. People there will always try to spin propaganda and politics into anything. And yes your friend is completely wrong. ALL notable gods in ALL religions of Nasuverse are originally NOT Divine Spirits. They used to be something else, like some aliens, some powerful beings, some spaceships, a human...etc that later became one with nature, shedding their original form to become known as Divine Spirits. That's when they gain power an authorities through human worship, as part of nature. So no, there is no "this pantheon is legit while the other is lesser". Your friend needs to stop lying to you.

[Kabalisto Koga]

China having mechanical stuffs with the Xians is not even something Fate made up. There's a literal mecha bull in Journey to the West that one of the Xians created, and Vietnam which had a long history of cultural exchange with China has a bow that can shoot like a gatling gun and a mecha horse. If you've read the Sanhaijing (it's like an encyclopedia for monsters in ancient China), there's even a race of people who does stuffs that later can be identified with ninjutsu and magic tricks involving complicated machinery (and Katou Danzou's material profile referenced this).


You need to stop going to tumblr, my honest advice. People there will always try to spin propaganda and politics into anything. And yes your friend is completely wrong. ALL notable gods in ALL religions of Nasuverse are originally NOT Divine Spirits. They used to be something else, like some aliens, some powerful beings, some spaceships, a human...etc that later became one with nature, shedding their original form to become known as Divine Spirits. That's when they gain power an authorities through human worship, as part of nature. So no, there is no "this pantheon is legit while the other is lesser". Your friend needs to stop lying to you.

As you say this am i remembered that their was even found an ancient Aeroplane model in egypt "the bird of saqqara" as it was named and that there i remember to hear that in China ,Gobi? was found and Glass covered corridor.

which let raise the Question may be were the civilations before ous not only more developed as we thought may be were to in possesion of Knowledge that we havent ,and maybe Maybe were once also Magecraft like in nasuverse an existing part of our world .

and please tell me what do you say to my comparisons of the different Deities ,Lily?

[Lily Emilio]

I don't really care about their powerlevel when comparing to the others. There are extremely strong ones and extremely weak ones within a pantheon. Can't really gauge them as a whole when you don't know most of them.

[Kabalisto Koga]

I don't really care about their powerlevel when comparing to the others. There are extremely strong ones and extremely weak ones within a pantheon. Can't really gauge them as a whole when you don't know most of them.

THere must i agree with you as the majorithy of the over 40 deities of the Egypt Pantheon are majorily either minor deities of same rank as the Greek nymphs or are just an aspect of an greater deity .though thank you for your answer.

[Anju Addams]

Cool, but the Cthulhu Mythos has its own purpose that it serves for Nasu, I don't see why you'd look to outside stuff to see how Nasu uses them.
I'd guess to take this to another thread then, like Miscellaneous Thoughts or something then.

I suppose. If I ever come on that Thread I'll happily discuss it with you or anyone that is interested.

China having mechanical stuffs with the Xians is not even something Fate made up. There's a literal mecha bull in Journey to the West that one of the Xians created, and Vietnam which had a long history of cultural exchange with China has a bow that can shoot like a gatling gun and a mecha horse. If you've read the Sanhaijing (it's like an encyclopedia for monsters in ancient China), there's even a race of people who does stuffs that later can be identified with ninjutsu and magic tricks involving complicated machinery (and Katou Danzou's material profile referenced this).

Thanks, this all looks rather interesting. Is there anywhere to find an English translation of that book by the way (can't find it on Amazon)? I found a non-translated version but would have to Google Translate it.

I mean that whole "X isn't of Earth so it's lesser than Y" is just BS. Amaterasu is of the Sun, yet she's viewed as a Buddha and high ranking goddess in some cultures in the universe. Some Divine Spirits were Elementals given faith, and some were just X stuff that had degraded/faded over time (like the PHH Greeks). I don't know who your Tumblr friends are, but they have clearly been smoking too much weed to have these kinds of "deep thoughts" and have clearly not read the works.

You need to stop going to tumblr, my honest advice. People there will always try to spin propaganda and politics into anything. And yes your friend is completely wrong. ALL notable gods in ALL religions of Nasuverse are originally NOT Divine Spirits. They used to be something else, like some aliens, some powerful beings, some spaceships, a human...etc that later became one with nature, shedding their original form to become known as Divine Spirits. That's when they gain power an authorities through human worship, as part of nature. So no, there is no "this pantheon is legit while the other is lesser". Your friend needs to stop lying to you.

To be fair, I haven't used Tumblr in some time and haven't spoken to my old friends since due to IRL issues. It was just something that stuck with me but after putting in several days of research, I can admit I was being rather stupid for believing them. I've been trying to get out of that Tumblr political mindset for a while because I knew we could get a bit crazed at times and I suppose this has made me look rather foolish. Regardless, I won't bring up that issue again.

[Kabalisto Koga]

I suppose. If I ever come on that Thread I'll happily discuss it with you or anyone that is interested.



Thanks, this all looks rather interesting. Is there anywhere to find an English translation of that book by the way (can't find it on Amazon)? I found a non-translated version but would have to Google Translate it.





To be fair, I haven't used Tumblr in some time and haven't spoken to my old friends since due to IRL issues. It was just something that stuck with me but after putting in several days of research, I can admit I was being rather stupid for believing them. I've been trying to get out of that Tumblr political mindset for a while because I knew we could get a bit crazed at times and I suppose this has made me look rather foolish. Regardless, I won't bring up that issue again.

Reaper what do you say actually to my answer from your Statement as with that i was nihilistic with that message was a bit surprising for me to be honest .

[Lily Emilio]

Thanks, this all looks rather interesting. Is there anywhere to find an English translation of that book by the way (can't find it on Amazon)? I found a non-translated version but would have to Google Translate it.

https://www.amazon.com/Shan-Hai-Jing.../dp/0979782406

[Anju Addams]

https://www.amazon.com/Shan-Hai-Jing.../dp/0979782406

Ah. American Amazon. That's a pretty expensive book and I'm not entirely sure how much shipping would cost to send it to my country, so I'll leave off on it for now but keep the page bookmarked. Thanks anyway!

Reaper what do you say actually to my answer from your Statement as with that i was nihilistic with that message was a bit surprising for me to be honest .

I tried to read your answer Koga but I'm afraid I didn't really understand what you mean? There was a lot of grammatical errors...sorry.

[Kabalisto Koga]

Ah. American Amazon. That's a pretty expensive book and I'm not entirely sure how much shipping would cost to send it to my country, so I'll leave off on it for now but keep the page bookmarked. Thanks anyway!



I tried to read your answer Koga but I'm afraid I didn't really understand what you mean? There was a lot of grammatical errors...sorry.

Ah i understand please tell what you couldnt really understand so that i know if i have phrased it not good ,so that i can say it better that you understand it .

[Shiki-pon]

Ah. American Amazon. That's a pretty expensive book and I'm not entirely sure how much shipping would cost to send it to my country, so I'll leave off on it for now but keep the page bookmarked. Thanks anyway!

I tried to read your answer Koga but I'm afraid I didn't really understand what you mean? There was a lot of grammatical errors...sorry.

He says that he doesn't consider what he said nihilistic.

Also neat, my uni has that book.

[Lily Emilio]

Ah. American Amazon. That's a pretty expensive book and I'm not entirely sure how much shipping would cost to send it to my country, so I'll leave off on it for now but keep the page bookmarked. Thanks anyway!

There's a kindle version for $20 tho, and while it's just the first volume there it's a must read for those who want to look deeper into ancient Chinese myth.

Fate made several references to stuffs in there (like Shutendoji's being in China before is actually because her prototype was mentioned in it). There's also another book called Huainanzi that refers to various ancient Chinese stuffs (mainly through Taoism lense) that includes Western philosophy (Greece philosophy especially) too, tho this one is...well...much harder to comprehend due to it being more of a philosophy book.