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Thread: Create-A-Servant 3

  1. #3581
    Foreigner Sheetematic Universe! DelRey's Avatar
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    Mnomquah, quick google search tells me why you had eyes on him. A thing that is in the moon of the dreamlands. actually quite an interesting and poetic connection. What could be the reason is the Author. Idk much of his works, but he started in the HPL verse in the 70s. So not someone i would personally touch.
    HPL seemingly hated alcohol, so idk if there was a being that was really associated with that specifically or alone. Probably in line with other really disgusting and perverted stuff. I remember some things he described as such. So I think the one best fitting for the aspect of 'drunkenness' could be Kuranes, the human King in the Dreamlands. The guy i connected Freud with. He was a drug addict, but he was also a homeless. Without falling into stereotypes, you could argue he used alcohol as a substance to reach the dreamlands again is fitting.
    But after finding this short story 'What the Moon brings', Cthulhu could be the thing he saw and makes the sheet more fitting after reading it.
    Alternative would be the vague connection Nyarlathotep has with the moon, partly shown in Summer BB and through his alliance with the Moon-Beasts and his general versatility as a character to play with humanity, to make him the benefactor.
    But i think changing the sheet now is not necessary. I believe Kuranes would fit here too, Nyarla is complicated, Cthulhu fits better than i first expected

    Btw, if anyone wants to do a Foreigner based on HPL stuff, i am always offering help and inspiration.

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  2. #3582
    Maker of Poor Decisions and Massive Sheets TheTruthWhale's Avatar
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    He could take in a weird direction and go Hastur as well, since he's in the Endless Mountains that exist in every dreamlands, but that would be even weirder than Cthulhu.

  3. #3583
    吸血鬼 Vampire Vance's Avatar
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  4. #3584
    Foreigner Sheetematic Universe! DelRey's Avatar
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    True, Hastur represents Decadence and decadent drinking can be one aspect of his. He valued artists, perhaps an attempt to paint the yellow sign with words is possible.

    Btw NMR, I just read the Charles VI sheet, i remember it from my times as lurker without name here. It is a really cool sheet using the Green Flame for that. Using his Glass Delusion and how you phrased it "Another famous delusion of Charles' was that his body had transformed into glass and would therefore shatter at the most minute touch. As a result, he had iron rods sewn into his clothing. This, of course, did not help; iron cannot help with the realization that existence is but a mere suggestion to the eldritch beings that lurk in the distance, far more fragile than even glass can ever be."
    That simple metaphor and the NP left a mark on me back then. good to remember it again.

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  5. #3585
    Confusion Levels: Maximum Cursed by Fortuna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelRey View Post
    well that was an entertaining, educational and fun read. I was happy at first "rank of mystery" is something i can work with, but damn your explanations teared a hole in the Nasu'logic'. It helped me a lot, thx. I continue to not give a shit about NP ranks and try other ways to bring them into perspective.
    It's definitely one of the things which frustrates me about Nasu (aside from instances like Arjuna and Karna where I feel his interpretations of the characters are significantly less interesting or compelling [I would be willing to explain or argue this in length [I don't hate what Nasu did with Karna or Arjuna, I just think that it's a case of missed potential for me kinda like Julius Caesar] and do have an idea for a prototype Arjuna and prototype Karna morsel based on their actual myths and my inteprtaions of what they would be like both either after their death or a decade or so after the events of the end of the war for Arjuna] than they could have been if Nasu stuck closer to the actual stories and characters of the figures he is making servants]. As for NP at some point (possibly the next sheet since I'm doing Jean Bureau and it would make sense to implement it for him) I may try to implement into my sheets like with the next one two separate statistics to do with NP's NP power and NP mystery, with NP power being based solely on the relative power of a noble phantasm, in terms of destructive power or it's effects, and NP mystery being a parameter which operates on it's own unique scale of measurement different from normal parameters rules.

    Possible NP mystery statistic example (may differ from final version, ranked from weakest mysteries to greatest):

    Fleeting (the level of very recent mystery and a lesser known local story [generally at least 50 to 200 years in age, although this is an estimate not a rule], at such a level even many mystic codes and spells in the modern era would have much higher mystery than this rank, could be considered similar to an E rank)

    Lesser (the level of an average or semi well known local story [generally at least 200 to 500 years in age, although this is an estimate not a rule], It would probably be of a rank that in terms of a mystic code or spelled created and used by modern mages would be acknowledged as being an achievement of note [although some of the strongest and best mages would say Greater rank is what any mage should aim for in terms of mystery], could be considered similar to an C rank)

    Greater (the level of very popular local mystery, or a lesser known story around the world [generally at least 500 to 1000 years in age, although this is an estimate not a rule], considered average or slightly below average by many in terms of the ranks of mystery it would be a rank which most mystic codes even produced by the best mages in the modern era would struggle to match, could be considered similar to an C rank)

    Mythic (on the level of ancient and renowned objects and artifacts of myths, in general the rough power of a legend with perhaps at least a 1000-1500 years of age [although some may be older or younger than this as it is an estimate, not a rule] and great renown, could be considered similar to an B rank)

    Divine (a mystery on or approaching the level of mystery divine spirits or divine constructs, at this rank any mystic codes crated in the past 500 years which approach the level of this rank would not number more than 50 [and the even the past millennium that number likely doesn't exceed 200], artifacts of this class almost always have a mystery which dates to the 6th century CE or easier often predate the start of the common era, could be considered similar to an A rank)

    Celestial (a mystery beyond the scope of divine spirits on the level of a the greatest existence in a planet's history or true god, could be considered similar to an EX rank)


    Quote Originally Posted by DelRey View Post
    Uninformed idea tho: Could those ranks be separated into their Anti-Unit, Anti-Fortress, etc categories? So a Rank B Anti-Unit NP can not compare against a Rank B Anti-Army NP just expanded across all possible 'Anti-'s?
    To some extent maybe, but it really depends, and I would lean towards no. Balmung and Clarent are the same rank, both Anti-army NP, and such but have different way in which they work and attack, meaning that while one is better at fighting a large amount of people it's not as good as the other is up close. Anti-fortress and Anti-City NPs might have a bit more destructive power in general as they are meant to damage or destroy fortified locations* while also having the range of an Anti-army Noble phantasm to damage a lot of people. In general NPs with a higher amount of range on them seems to have a higher energy cost for their use. As for anti-unit NP there actually are some Anti-Unit NPs which would be effective at fighting an army or affect a large number of people (Pashupata), but are considered Anti-Unit as "they target 1 person at a time" or "they do not kill a large number of people simultaneously".

    It's really hard to say in that a lot of NPs work in ways that makes comparisons hard, comparing Excalibur Galatine, Brahmastra, or Dynamics of an asteroid works in that they all involve something which devastates or destroys an area and with things like Excalibur or Belphetron we see what damage those can do, for things like Caliburn's laser Julius Caesar's sword, or such we have far less references and the more different they are in how they work, the harder it becomes to compare them directly without just saying "which has a higher ranking mystery compared to another (insert classification of NP) NP" which I feel isn't always great especially since as I detail with my question below and with stuff like Pashupata it means sometimes NP can have classifications which don't always seem to fit them well which makes comparing them (particularly if we are trying to say compare how Leonidias' NP works to say something like Gorgon's or Calrent which all are of the same rank, yet all radically differ) a little iffy to me personally.


    *Which to anyone who knows would an attack like a cannon which pierces fortresses, yet isn't able to destroy them in 1 fell swoop be considered Anti-fortress, or due to lacking the range of an Anti-army NP Anti-unit.

    Quote Originally Posted by DelRey View Post
    Oh and it is Quetzalcoatl, Quetzal like the pretty birds that were an important part of Aztec life
    Yeah, my computer hates that name for some reason, I don't always remember how to spell it properly and auto-correct or auto-word complete generally doesn't think my name is close enough to suggest or make the correction.


    Quote Originally Posted by DelRey View Post
    Morg, is there a certain merchant or trader of sorts in the Arthurian legend? I play with the thought of perhaps compiling a list of people that were target on Outer Gods interest like Hastur, but I dont know if I can find candidates in Camelot
    Merlin could count as originally he was just a welsh bard, you could also go with Vasco de Gama as he was a famous trader and would fit in well, William Adams (the first western samurai) would also work.


    Quote Originally Posted by NMR-3 View Post
    First, "why Cthulhu", which @DelRey also raised -- I couldn't find an Elder One that actually has anything to do with drunkenness. That being the case, I fell back on the theme of dreams instead. I'd considered Mnomquah but for reasons I can't actually recall I felt it didn't quite fit either. I went with Cthulhu in the end because its associations with dreaming and water were the best I'd get, or so I presumed. Warmly awaiting any suggestions for what else to bind Li Bai to that fits the drunkenness better.
    Well what do you mean by Drunkenness? Joking aside I am serious on that as there are a bunch of ways to think about the concept, drunkenness can mean being physically drunk, but it can also mean or imply revelry, immorality, and/or debauchery. Being drunk or intoxicated means one who has fallen under the influence of alcohol which like many things (or really everything depending on the dose) is a poison so it could refer to the imbibing of poison or something toxic. When I think of toxic or toxicity, I also think of people who are toxic, behaving in a manner as if they are filled with a great poison within themselves spewing out miasma and poison to anyone and anything around them, rendering the world around them less hospitable, intoxicating others, and creating an echo camber of a swampy poisonous miasma a realm where all that is good, normal, and right has been forgotten (much like immorality and revelry).

    I know this sounds like a stretch, but really I think you could make a great foreigner sheet with the idea (if there is any outer gods or beings associated with bogs, swamps, mist, miasma, or poisons which infects and intoxicates people causing them to descend into immortal and toxic behavior and literally become monsters).



    Also to @TheTruthWhale I will do a review of the sheet sometime today (I also have a huge list of sheets I need to get to reviewing dating all the way back to Issac Newton, but I'll try to get the Rati done today).

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Postscript

    Also @ Morg do you have any plans for Chrétien de Troyes because if not I was going to put him down on my list of potentially do something with later down the line servants or figures.
    Last edited by Cursed by Fortuna; May 26th, 2021 at 01:49 AM.
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  6. #3586
    Maker of Poor Decisions and Massive Sheets TheTruthWhale's Avatar
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    No rush, Fortuna. But thanks.

  7. #3587
    love warrior <3 world-0 the god of world-0's Avatar
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    Berserker of Pompeii

    "############!"


    Class: Berserker
    Alignment: Chaotic/Neutral
    Region: Italy
    Height: 250cm
    Weight: 150kg
    Likes: Destruction
    Dislikes: Everything else
    Talent: Burning
    Armaments: Fire
    Natural Enemy: Hercules

    stats

    Str: A
    End: A
    Agi: D
    Mna: B
    Lck: C
    NP: A

    Skills


    class skills

    Madness Enhancement(A): The Class Skill that characterizes a Berserker, grants rank ups for all parameters, but most of Berserker's reason is robbed. As he is an uncontrollable power whose only function is destroying, communication is completely impossible.

    personal skills

    Divinity(B): The measure of whether one has Divine Spirit aptitude or not. Berserker is a powerful Agathodaimon, a form of lesser deity/Nature Spirit in Greek and Roman mythology, and was worshipped as a power of Jupiter and a sacred place for the hero Hercules, granting him a high rank of Divinity.

    Force of Nature(B): A variation of the Skill Child of Nature, it represents Berserker as a power born from the natural world that is blessed by the same. It allows for Berserker to use the Mana in the ambient around him as an external source of power independent of his Master's Mana. However, the efficiency of this Skill is inversely proportional to how much the local where Berserker finds himself was modified by modern human society. Its effects can vary from a small bonus in the middle of a city, to full Mana autonomy in places such as a remote mountaintop.

    Phlegraean Plain(A): The ability to drastically modify the terrain simply by standing on it. Wherever Berserker finds himself, the immediate area around him becomes a hellscape of burning fire. The area of effect is 10 meters in all directions, and the impacts last for about 2-3 hours after his departure, as the world returns itself to its original state.

    Mana Eruption(A): A variation of the Skill Mana Burst, it drastically increases the destruction caused by expelling a ludicrous amount of mana on impact, like an exploding volcano. However, because such raw power is used, this Skill cannot be used in conjunction with weapons without them being utterly destroyed by the strength feedback.



    Noble phantasm


    Hell break Loose
    Inferno Comflagratio


    Rank: Anti-city, A

    A Noble Phantasm that recreates what is probably the most famous event associated with Berserker, the eruption of 79 AD which destroyed the cities of Pompeii and Herculaneum, as well as several other roman settlements. The event was one of the deadliest of its kind in human history, and it would be forever immortalized in the memory of mankind.

    Using himself as the central point, Berserker ejects molten rock, pulverized pumice, and hot ash at 1.5 million tons per second, creating an explosion of unimaginable scale that has 100,000 times the thermal energy of an atomic bomb. At these levels of power, a normal human will have their bodies either vaporized and vitrified by the heat, being killed instantly. Even if one somehow manages to survive the force and heat of the eruption, the lack of oxygen and the incredible amount of ash in the atmosphere will quickly cause the victims to suffocate and died from it.

    An outrageous level of devastation that is hard for humans to even comprehend, it does not distinguish friend from foe. For it to be utilized safely, Berserker's Master must be at least 30 kilometers away from the eruption or have a level of protection that can contend with it. Furthermore, the Mana cost for the deployment of this Noble Phantasm is incredibly steep and cannot be easily disregarded.


    Background


    Berserker's real identity is that of Mount Vesuvius, or rather, the Genius Loci who is the embodiment of the mountain's nature. The Somma-stratovolcano is located in Campania, Italy, about 9km (5.6mi) east of Naples and a short distance from the shore.

    Berserker has erupted many times, and is the only volcano on the European mainland to have erupted within the last hundred years. Even today, it is regarded as one of the most dangerous volcanoes in the world because of the population of 3,000,000 people living near enough to be affected by an eruption.

    The Volcano has a long historic and literary tradition. It was considered a divinity of the Daemon type at the time of the eruption of AD 79. It is told that Hercules, in the performance of his labors, passed through the country of nearby Cumae on his way to Sicily and found there a place called "the Phlegraean Plain" ("plain of fire"), "from a hill which anciently vomited out fire ..."



    personality


    Berserker is an unstoppable and uncontrollable force of nature and, as such, cannot be reasoned with. The only way for its Master to have control over Berserker is to limit the supply of Mana at his disposition (which can be tricky to achieve) or through the use of Command Seals.

    As a force of nature, Berserker cannot be distinguished as good or evil. He understands no more about the consequences of the destruction he causes than an earthquake does. berserker destroys because it's in his essence to do so, and he cares not for what or who he is destroying.

    He is incapable of speech, but he does roars with a voice that sounds like thunder. A wise Master will not attempt to go much closer than a few meters away from him. A smarter Master would simply travel to a city far away from Berserker's locations.




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  8. #3588
    Wyrd oft nereð unfǽgne eorl, þonne his ellen déah... Skull's Avatar
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    Speaking of early Servant design that is irksome. I never liked the fact that Riding is also a Class Skill of Sabers, despite the fact that Saber/Archer/Lancer are called the three knight classes. Rather than an automatic Class Skill for Sabers, Riding should have been an optional class skill instead that the knight classes are able to have if the individuals qualify for it. That way you also sidestep issues like Okita having it despite her own profile noting that she never rode a horse.
    Last edited by Skull; May 16th, 2021 at 06:32 PM.
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  9. #3589
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Kabalisto Koga's Avatar
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    Canaan /Nekhbet: okay now i try to make a real review ! So at first i must admit that i havent watched Canaan apart from someo ut of context Clips , so i dont know this Synthesia so imust admit i cant say which specific aspects this Play into it but i must say it seems to have a ggood compatibility . the Shen ring is quite wll thought out i must say the discription of the useable Option at the start is very good though a Little description of the Ring and the Daggers aswell the Shield is missing as Detail i must admit , like try to descrive how it would look in a anime Adaption . Like as example th description of Jimmus spear (and this shouldnt be a advertisment just for the record !)

    Spear of the Heavenly descendance
    Amenonuhoku
    A+
    Anti-Territory (Anti-Army)
    Is the spear which once the deity couple Izanami and Izanagi used to create the primordial landmass Onogoroshima. Although Jimmu didn't possess the spear in life he has by conquest and claiming successful authority of whole Japan also obtained the authority to wield this spear. Amenonukoku is a highly decorated and ornate spear which is not a naginata nor one of the Yari Spear common nowadays as it has characteristics that are to a minor degree comparable with Gae spears of the Celts but only in terms of base blueprints. It possesses a double edged blade type which resembles a slightly broader Omi-yari and is colored crimson-red which's "Habaki" position is highly decorated with multicolored mosaics that show a spiral shaped "yin-yang" motif and the outlines of the first Japanese island on the outer borders. Then Sakura shaped ornamentation are directly under the mosaic under which are in primordial "Kanji" letters engraved the name "Izanagi + -nami". Then the is rod rilled in a spiral pattern and loaded with greyish-red orbs and the rod itself is teal colored and at the end dome shaped.

    i mean llke this. I must also applaud you for connectin the different Gods withhin the Shen ring symbolisim really good , About Horus so in your reconstruction is Horus more a tittle as individual Name if i understood it Right ? About Atem i musst say and admit that in my egypt lostbelt will spoiler ahead of you now > appear as unique Grand Beast servant and i have reconstructed also a Explanation for the aspect that their are more then one Creator Gods ´withhn the Egyptian world .

    As besideafter power servants i could self describe a speciality of me Divine Spirit servants do i dont see her as to powerfull as i am of the oppinion that the Egyptian Gods are rather powerfull one where i think that they are comparable with hte power of example wise the Greek Olympians although i know that great Divine fights between the Gods are in the egyptian mythology rather few so are their powers not so obvious to the view , i say in that regard .

    And About the power Level and different Pantheons and Gods world i have the stance every each of them has ist own Rulings and framworkl which may be similar but is still different . i will later take a look at your Reconstructed Egyptian mythology build .

    I hope this was now a real review for you !
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  10. #3590
    Maker of Poor Decisions and Massive Sheets TheTruthWhale's Avatar
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    That would have been a better way to handle it, agreed Skull.

    @god-of-the-world:

    We all know the Nasuverse would have made Vesuvius a girl, so your restraint is commendable and disappointing. I think the NP should be Anti-Country rather than Anti-City, since it's something can destroy multiple cities with ease. That kind of sudden heat will completely fuck over the atmosphere, too. I imagine the mana that kind of eruption takes would kill most magi, too.

  11. #3591
    Confusion Levels: Maximum Cursed by Fortuna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skull View Post
    Speaking of early Servant design that is irksome. I never liked the fact that Riding is also a Class Skill of Sabers, despite the fact that Saber/Archer/Lancer are called the three knight classes. Rather than an automatic Class Skill for Sabers, Riding should have been an optional class skill instead that the knight classes are able to have if the individuals qualify for it. That way you also sidestep issues like Okita having it despite her own profile noting that she never rode a horse.
    Yeah I would have made it a personal skill rather than a class skill and had he asterisk that having a high rank in riding or an association with riding or mounts be needed to be a rider. What's even dumber is that logically saber as a class makes no sense for having a riding skill (aside form the connection with medieval knights*) as a sword (even some of the biggest ones you could feasibly use while on a mount just don't have enough reach) is essentially a piece of junk for someone on a mount, the thing is to small to be useful in any situation aside from it the enemy is within like 2 feet of either side of your horse otherwise you are going to fall off the horse or fail to hit them* making them pretty limited in utility outside or semi-close quarters. If anything a bow, a gun, or a polearm would make more sense as a weapon (at least before cavalry switched to sabers and long range weapons only). If anything by this logic Lancer is the one who should have the riding skill as it also would fit their deal of them being all about hit and run tactics (or at least that was the original idea) as they would basically about cavalry charges and either doing a death by a thousand cuts or outright mowing down their with 1 single charge, yet leaving themselves open in the process to get hit or their mount killed.

    * While cavalry did use swords, calvary sabres to be exact the circumstances behind their use made it so they were initially mostly a secondary weapon the idea being that after the initial charge if they got surrounded or their lances stuck in their enemies or something like that they would have a weapon to fight with (and also possibly having a knife or a short sword if the combat was so close quarters that a long sword wasn't feasible). While Cavalry did make a switch to mostly using Sabres at those point firearms and artillery had come around and started to see major use and that changed the ways cavalries acted and such as such trying to tightly each and gather cavalry for a big charge while people are shooting at you and lining up cannons waiting to take out as many foes as they can with a single shot isn't a bright idea, so they switched to a weapon more based on maneuverability than momentum.

    https://www.quora.com/Why-did-cavalr...-using-a-lance

    https://www.reddit.com/r/history/com...alry_why_even/
    Last edited by Cursed by Fortuna; May 16th, 2021 at 07:02 PM.
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  12. #3592
    Maker of Poor Decisions and Massive Sheets TheTruthWhale's Avatar
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    Swordsmen on horseback are better than you give them credit for. It was a staple of middle-eastern cavalry for a reason, and even the samurai and Mongols used swords while on a horse. Horse archery requires so much additional skill that there's a reason you really only see it popularized in warfare along the central Asian steppes (and a few other places, too), and even then, you could never replicate the draw of, say, the longbow users of England who had been trained for years just to pull the string. Many polearms were extremely unwieldy when fighting against another cavalry (beyond that initial charge), and curved swords on horseback could wreak a lot more devastation when mowing through untrained footsoldiers.

    With that said, though, it should absolutely be an "optional" class skill, and not one every Saber has. It makes sense for some, others, not so much. I think part of the problem is that "Riding" skill itself is also just so needlessly broad. There should be individual skills for Riders who are trained on mounts, those trained on things like ships, those trained in mechanized cavalry (for modern servants), and subskills for more unique servants, such as the valkyries and their pegasi mounts.

    EDIT: There's also the thing about how "you can never have too many weapons," but one of Fortuna's edited sources beat me to that.

    EDIT 2: I also don't know much about the evolution of cavalry before and during WW1. Modern warfare (kek) is a bit outside my wheelhouse.
    Last edited by TheTruthWhale; May 16th, 2021 at 07:18 PM.

  13. #3593
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Kabalisto Koga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cursed by Fortuna View Post
    Okay I was just confused when I read the part about able to see and bring concepts into existence and when I read that Cannan was the only one mostly able to use that ability I took it as you implying she could literally actualize concepts and things into existence (alongside other living things). Explained now that makes a bunch more sense and fixes the whole sense of her power levels seeming so crazy strong.




    *bangs head on desk* I did it again didn't I, I did. I knew about that I even incorporated that idea into my Jean Bureau sheet as a critical concept for his 2nd NP and I still made the stupid NP rank mistake. UNGGGGGGGGGGGH. [Sighs heavily] Okay so here's a rundown on what is in my mind objectively the most stupid and convoluted thing about servant sheets and something that even with me knowing it still as I noted gets me confused constantly, mostly because Nasu and Co are CRAZY INCONSISTENT with this (especially with stuff FGO and powerful servants)

    NP rank does not equal how powerful an NP is. It's dumb, It's confusing, I hate it as a rule and wish it was just simplified to having NPs power or relative strength be indicated by the big letter, but that's not how it works. According to Nasu himself the way the stupid system works is that the letters represent the rank of the "divine mystery" which makes up a NP, that's why you can have some things like Kiyohime or Sakamtot Ryoma's NPs being ranked EX (in that both involve them or their partner turning into a dragon enemies embodying he strongest mysteries [in the former's case without even having a clear connection to one]) and why some NP like Elizabeth Bathory's as Lancer are so weak, yet are seemingly stronger than their rank would imply. This is also indicated by Cu's spear essentially having infinite attack power due to how it works when thirst, yet only being B+ rank.


    However, I hate this system because Nasu can't make up his F***in mind with it, GOD HAND, a literal NP embodying the divine protection granted to Heracles by the Olympian gods (and probably dating back to 2000 to 1500 BCE) which shrugs off any attack less than A rank, no matter how strong, and grants 12 lives, invulnerable skin to any attacks below A rank, invulnerability to any attacks which killed him before, and also I think gives him regeneration things that don't kill him is a C RANK in terms of it's "divine mystery", Caliburn and Clarent are A+ and B rank respectively both of which being much younger mysteries by comparison, even Julius caesar's sword is B+ rank. This is even worse in that consider this, NP like everything else on a servant sheet follow the parameter rules which dictates that higher ranks are better and more powerful than lower ones, but this isn't always true in that something like Gae Bolg can deal far more damage in theory to someone like Arcuied than Excalibur ever could (despite being lower by the parameter ranks) simply due to how it works, parameter rules be darned [at this point I wonder why Nasu just didn't a separate ranking system separate from the normal parameter ranks given that the way parameter ranks work for say personal skills or physical bailies doesn't seem to apply right to noble phantasms*.

    *this is also supported in that Saber mused of a situation involving God Hand where a C rank attack in theory strong enough to destroy the world "she didn't think would be able to hurt him*"

    ** At the very least if it hit Heracles' skin, as that is I believe the part of him that is invulnerable, anything not covered in skin is fair game, but considering he regenerates pretty fast from anything nonlethal, you best act quick.


    I hate this a lot more as when it comes to servants Nasu wants to look impressive him and co seem all for slapping really high ranks on their NPs despite that supposedly not being how this works at all and it constantly zigzags between following or ignoring this rule, think how many times in FGO foes that you are supposed to be impressed or intimated by have very high NP ranks, when that doesn't always hold true. Ironically enough one of the series that gets this right more often then not is Fat : Apocrypha, Karna and Achilles stuff is from literal myths and legends around gods and is very high rank, Adam is a crazy powerful golem based around the mystery of the first human, some stuff like Alfostro's NP seem a little suspect, but it's actually fairly good about this rule.

    As for how to tell how powerful any given NP is I have no bloody clue, we have a vague number which I suppose is in meters (or whatever unit Nasu is using) to indicate the range of an NP, a vague descriptor of it the NP is meant to be used against an army or a single person, and a number of maximum targets, but as far as I know aside from the amount of magical energy an attack outputs (which doesn't directly correlate to damaging potential as Gae Bolg is described as "fairly low cost" for it's effect ) than I don't know. As far as I know there might not even be a way of comparing the amount of damage a noble phantasm can do aside from taking into account things like how vague numbers like damage potential for things like Excalibur and Ea, comparisons of magical energy output, and extrapolating from that (and even then that's suspect as frequently as I mentioned with stuff related to divine spirits I feel Nasu drops the ball in that he says stuff, but I really don't think he gets the gravity of what he is saying or what that really actually means from a logic and physics standpoint***).

    ***An example

    As a good example let's go to Quexacoatyl and singularity 7 and in my mind explore one of the single most logic fails I've seen, specifically Quexacoatyl (who is supposedly weakened due to being summoned as a Bunrei, even further weakened due to having lost most of her divinity after being forced to destroy the temple fueling Gorgon) using an attack cited to be as powerful as the meteor which wiped out the dinosaurs. If we take this statement literally and also believe Nasu when he says Quexacoatyl has been weakened twice then I can say that I would really like to see what she was like as a divine spirit without being weakened as I think she could have soloed Tiamat with how powerful she must have been then.


    Let me give you a few facts here the Richter scale is logarithmic, any increase of magnitude by 1.0 is 10x stronger than the previous one as such a magnitude 3 Richter earthquake is 100x stronger than a magnitude 1 earthquake.

    Earthquakes can also exceed magnitude 10, however normally, there isn't enough energy in the tectonic plates of earth to generate a magnitude 10 earthquake, only a meteor or a comet could do that.

    Magnitude 9 earthquakes are so powerful that the earth (which has a mass of 6.6 sextillion tons) literally slightly accelerates in't it's rotation. When Japan was struck with a magnitude 8.9 earthquake in 2011 it actually shortened the length of a day on earth (which contrary to popular belief is not 1/365 of a solar rotation it is 1 rotation of the earth about it's axis it just so happens that that timeframe syncs up fairly well with 1/365 of a rotation about the sun) by 1.8 microseconds and moved the main island of Japan ~8 feet.

    Even is something is blocked, say with a force field the laws of physics and common sense say if you hit it hard enough all that energy created from the impact which doesn't transfer into the field is going somewhere, and as a result between the pressure wave and the literally wall of air which at this poi nt is less a sound anything could even hope to have their ears process and more a giant semi-truck speeding out in every direction from the impact ready to body whatever poor thing gets in it's way, yeah blocking something that strong wouldn't magically erase the other consequences of such an impact namely, if poor Ritsuka were in dozens of kilometers of it, he'd die near instantly.

    The asteroid which killed of the dinosaurs kicked up so much dust it caused the whole planet to freeze over starting an ice age, caused tsunamis a mile high (while some tsunami waves out at sea get big, they shrink approaching the coast), and struck with a magnitude that some experts approximate at 12.3 on the Richter scale and triggered magintude 9 earthquakes around the globe from impact.

    Lastly according to Randall Monroe, former NASA worker and writer of XKCD, and resident smart guy in his book explains this point a magnitude 15 earthquake would be like what happens when the Death Star's laser hit a planet, as it it would destroy the earth (not totally mind you, but destroy it).


    Now putting this all together, I subtract 12.3 from 15 and get 2.7 (10)^2.7 = 501.187, so that would make Quexacoatyl's meteor attack literally a little less than 1/500 as powerful as an Anti-planet NP and considering that it would cover the earth in ash and exterminate all human life in another ice age makes her agreeably around as absurd as Ea in terms of how destructive that attack is, also taking into account the sought scaling of the Japan earthquake (12.3-8.9 = 3.4; ([10]^3.4)* 1.8 = 4521.39558 microseconds or 4.521 milliseconds (without taking into account the other earthquakes and even with this rough scaling that's pretty intense) and also would have moved whatever it hit by a fair bit (scaling is hard with this but I would say dozens of feet at least and it if it struck in the middle of a continent it would probably crate cracks in that continent.

    This is why I kinda say Nasu probably doesn't always fully probably consider what certain stamens would mean before making them, as mind you Quexacoatyl is supposed to be weakened by 2 separate metrics here, and she does this (ignoring how even if this attacked worked she would have basically doomed the whole singularity) and at the end this doesn't even kill her from the mana drain. This is also why I partly dislike divine spirits as even from Nasu and co, the rank is real, and real strong.


    As for Moonlight world materials I may need to revamp that 1st sheet sometime, I also probably should get done with the Cincinnati 771 (my take on the American magus group sometime). sorry about the really long post and rant, but I hate this about Nasu as it's a really stupid system and I wish Nasu would change it as it's confusing and despite "older being better" stuff like nukes can do more damage than most NPs can (despite a Nuke having no mystery) a while a newer mystery will get beat by an older one, that doesn't always mean the older mystery is more powerful than the newer one (Caladblog versus Excalibur) and in theory a new spell based on a young mystery if it was say cast 20 times instantly would probably be more destructive than than a single older spell based on an older mystery as while the mystery is weaker than the older one, that mystery layered 20 times over probably has more destructive potential than that single older spell does.


    Anyways Thanks for attending my TED Talk
    My first thought was after reading this was this \/



    I personally am decidinng the Ranks on their powerscaling and degree of mystery , ist not a complicated Thing. in my oppinion.

    beside i have now send you my Story Points and am curious and innterested About your answer Fortune.
    Quote Originally Posted by DelRey View Post
    well that was an entertaining, educational and fun read. I was happy at first "rank of mystery" is something i can work with, but damn your explanations teared a hole in the Nasu'logic'. It helped me a lot, thx. I continue to not give a shit about NP ranks and try other ways to bring them into perspective.
    Uninformed idea tho: Could those ranks be separated into their Anti-Unit, Anti-Fortress, etc categories? So a Rank B Anti-Unit NP can not compare against a Rank B Anti-Army NP just expanded across all possible 'Anti-'s?

    Oh and it is Quetzalcoatl, Quetzal like the pretty birds that were an important part of Aztec life
    So this is the reason why you dont rank your servants noblephantasm hm .

    About the Ranks and categories hm thats a dfficult one i think . I would here imagine a Anti Unit weapon Slash could be used also against a greater Group of Enemies but then ist weakened .

    Funfact :About the Quetzal Bird have you know that the so called Crown of Moctezuma is made out of the Tail feathers of this Bird ?

    Last edited by Kabalisto Koga; May 16th, 2021 at 07:22 PM.
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    Lost in Paradise RoydGolden's Avatar
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    Not sure what you tried to do with that textdump but it didn't work out.

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    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Kabalisto Koga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoydGolden View Post
    Not sure what you tried to do with that textdump but it didn't work out.

    I have now corrected it sometimes are Pictures Abit stubborn. beside have you some servants currently in working Royd ? i currently work on one but i got Always some additional ideas for servants .
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    Confusion Levels: Maximum Cursed by Fortuna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheTruthWhale View Post
    Swordsmen on horseback are better than you give them credit for. It was a staple of middle-eastern cavalry for a reason, and even the samurai and Mongols used swords while on a horse. Horse archery requires so much additional skill that there's a reason you really only see it popularized in warfare along the central Asian steppes (and a few other places, too), and even then, you could never replicate the draw of, say, the longbow users of England who had been trained for years just to pull the string. Many polearms were extremely unwieldy when fighting against another cavalry (beyond that initial charge), and curved swords on horseback could wreak a lot more devastation when mowing through untrained footsoldiers.
    Depends on the kind of armor, you're enemy is wearing, while it was a staple of middle-eastern cavalry there's the key phrase there is Middle East. The Middle East is mostly a desert and as anyone could tell you about a car on a hot day metal absorbs heat pretty good, if you worse metal armor in a desert you would literally bake yourself and pass out or die of heat exhaustion, as such armor for those conditions was at most leather (maybe even a light layer of chain if you were lucky, but considering that with chain mail that took a bunch of time to make and was really expensive [basically having to be made by hand for a long time], you basically mostly got leather there) with some metal bits and pieces here and there. The scimitars and swords of the Middle East and the way they use them is specifically designed for the fact that their foe's wouldn't likely be wearing metal armor and for slicing and cutting through leather and cloth and then into flesh. In say France or Europe were metal armor was more common you got swords designed around stabbing and exploiting gaps in armor as trying to cut through metal would at worst, at a good angle dent it and blunt or crack your blade.

    As for mounted archery, not all mounted archery had to have the horses moving, give a cavalryman a bow and basically that means they can rise around the battlefield positioning themselves to snipe and fire at enemies from either on a stationary horse, or after dismounting (same principle with giving a cavalryman a rifle, even if they can't shoot while moving you essentially have a much more mobile ranged infantry. Calavry in general was never a group of soldiers about the long haul in battle as one of the comments from the sites I linked put it.

    "If cavalry was caught in fairly static fighting then it was going to be completely destroyed anyway, swords or not." [deleted account]

    And it rings fairly true, realistically a good shot to a horse's neck in the right spot or them mistyping or tripping over an enemy or getting hit in the leg and that's basically it, calvary unit gone, and their ability to move around the batteries doesn't matter if they're surrounded by all sides. Calvary was all about having them charge in, do a bunch of damage and then leave ideally before someone shot them with arrows or surrounded them. Whether that was with with either Sabers or spears, lances, or halberds this was basically as I understand it, the major calvary strategy (before rifles and such and exempting mounted archers who may have behaved differently).


    Quote Originally Posted by TheTruthWhale View Post
    With that said, though, it should absolutely be an "optional" class skill, and not one every Saber has. It makes sense for some, others, not so much. I think part of the problem is that "Riding" skill itself is also just so needlessly broad. There should be individual skills for Riders who are trained on mounts, those trained on things like ships, those trained in mechanized cavalry (for modern servants), and subskills for more unique servants, such as the valkyries and their pegasi mounts.
    Yeah thankfully with FGO and pirates we are starting to get something like that now, Riding was always just one of those weird skills to me as more than half of the time it basically seems useless to whatever servant has it.
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    Maker of Poor Decisions and Massive Sheets TheTruthWhale's Avatar
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    The HRE had some areas with heavily armored cavalry with middling results specifically to avoid that problem. I can't remember the name of the german-specific one, but I believe they were the best of their era. But yeah, unless you were butchering civilians or routing fleeing footmen, most of the time, your cavalry was a shock troop. Most still carried swords just in case, though, and since there really wasn't a "standard issue," you really only carried one if you know how to use it. Funnily enough, money to be trained on a horse also meant money to be trained in the sword.

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    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors Kabalisto Koga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheTruthWhale View Post
    Swordsmen on horseback are better than you give them credit for. It was a staple of middle-eastern cavalry for a reason, and even the samurai and Mongols used swords while on a horse. Horse archery requires so much additional skill that there's a reason you really only see it popularized in warfare along the central Asian steppes (and a few other places, too), and even then, you could never replicate the draw of, say, the longbow users of England who had been trained for years just to pull the string. Many polearms were extremely unwieldy when fighting against another cavalry (beyond that initial charge), and curved swords on horseback could wreak a lot more devastation when mowing through untrained footsoldiers.

    With that said, though, it should absolutely be an "optional" class skill, and not one every Saber has. It makes sense for some, others, not so much. I think part of the problem is that "Riding" skill itself is also just so needlessly broad. There should be individual skills for Riders who are trained on mounts, those trained on things like ships, those trained in mechanized cavalry (for modern servants), and subskills for more unique servants, such as the valkyries and their pegasi mounts.

    EDIT: There's also the thing about how "you can never have too many weapons," but one of Fortuna's edited sources beat me to that.

    EDIT 2: I also don't know much about the evolution of cavalry before and during WW1. Modern warfare (kek) is a bit outside my wheelhouse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cursed by Fortuna View Post
    Depends on the kind of armor, you're enemy is wearing, while it was a staple of middle-eastern cavalry there's the key phrase there is Middle East. The Middle East is mostly a desert and as anyone could tell you about a car on a hot day metal absorbs heat pretty good, if you worse metal armor in a desert you would literally bake yourself and pass out or die of heat exhaustion, as such armor for those conditions was at most leather (maybe even a light layer of chain if you were lucky, but considering that with chain mail that took a bunch of time to make and was really expensive [basically having to be made by hand for a long time], you basically mostly got leather there) with some metal bits and pieces here and there. The scimitars and swords of the Middle East and the way they use them is specifically designed for the fact that their foe's wouldn't likely be wearing metal armor and for slicing and cutting through leather and cloth and then into flesh. In say France or Europe were metal armor was more common you got swords designed around stabbing and exploiting gaps in armor as trying to cut through metal would at worst, at a good angle dent it and blunt or crack your blade.

    As for mounted archery, not all mounted archery had to have the horses moving, give a cavalryman a bow and basically that means they can rise around the battlefield positioning themselves to snipe and fire at enemies from either on a stationary horse, or after dismounting (same principle with giving a cavalryman a rifle, even if they can't shoot while moving you essentially have a much more mobile ranged infantry. Calavry in general was never a group of soldiers about the long haul in battle as one of the comments from the sites I linked put it.

    "If cavalry was caught in fairly static fighting then it was going to be completely destroyed anyway, swords or not." [deleted account]

    And it rings fairly true, realistically a good shot to a horse's neck in the right spot or them mistyping or tripping over an enemy or getting hit in the leg and that's basically it, calvary unit gone, and their ability to move around the batteries doesn't matter if they're surrounded by all sides. Calvary was all about having them charge in, do a bunch of damage and then leave ideally before someone shot them with arrows or surrounded them. Whether that was with with either Sabers or spears, lances, or halberds this was basically as I understand it, the major calvary strategy (before rifles and such and exempting mounted archers who may have behaved differently).




    Yeah thankfully with FGO and pirates we are starting to get something like that now, Riding was always just one of those weird skills to me as more than half of the time it basically seems useless to whatever servant has it.
    Actually were the Fighting strategise of SAmuurai and european Knights to begin with very different as the Knights became increasing heavier armored which made thm quite slow atleast the mostof them , during the Samurai Yorois wwere much lighter but also quite durable as they were made oout of three materials ,eather ,Wood and Metall , also are the Swords very different respectively the base Concept thought as throughout europe were many different Sword types from some that were usedquite everywhere like Gladius like Sword types , to Swords that only certain tribes used like the Thracian Rhomphaias are Weapons but specially Swords demonstrate two aspects ,at first the mentality and Soul of a culture and their Strategy and Concept of BAttle so were the Roman adapted at open and "civilised" Fighting order during other People lie Germans fought rather unleashed and wild .

    or like i read once that against the Thracian tribes thbe Romans had to adapt at using new Methods as they were under the Romans seen as the strongest and wildest Barbarrian and as their weapons were so strong that they had to develop Special armor types to counter them which is demonstrate their danger potencial.

    to come back at the Samurai were as the Sword was the same sort were developed a multitude of swordstypes to surpasse this Limitation.

    About the archer Cavalries they were used primarily by nomadic horsemen People as their War strategisee were having their roots in Hunting strategies so did they used the hunts as Training for War .

    About the War aftter the development of gunpowder weapons i refuse to talk About them as i view them as unhonorable and unhumane.
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    Lost in Paradise RoydGolden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kabalisto Koga View Post
    I have now corrected it sometimes are Pictures Abit stubborn. beside have you some servants currently in working Royd ? i currently work on one but i got Always some additional ideas for servants .
    None for the time being, currently occupied with other writing projects. We'll see if the next contest spurs my inspiration I guess.

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    Vesuvius: what a beast. feels more like a end boss Monster than a real servant when it can wreck whole cities. How a Master could control this thing and survives is beyond me. After NittyGritty's Kheimon sheet from the contest, I thought about Vesuvius being a Fire Type of this kind.

    Saber and Riding: Yes i am annoyed by it too, but the function of Riding is more like using modern vehicles if needed, but why only saber and not the other knight classes is weird. I only did not Saber, that was basically all Knight Classes at once and ignored this skill, because it doesnt really add something most of the times.

    Koga: thank you for the review. I can try to describe more of the optics of certain weapons in the future. I just shoved the picture in and called it a day, i was concentrating more on the functionality than aesthetic. And I agree with the different Pantheons, each one should feel different to others. The blog should explain more about the background.

    Royd: Writing projects for the Fateverse or other stuff outside of Beasts Lair?

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