The points of divergence for certain worlds.

[TheSkipRow]

I'm trying to make a map of where certain timelines split from the linear path of the Proper-Human History.

So we know (or at least theorize) that the point where a certain timeline split into Tsukihime and Fate worlds is during Zelretch's fight against Crimson Moon. Whatever happened then was significant enough for the Human Order to grow weaker with time and the 27 Dead Apostles to exist as a group and vice versa.

This however leaves Kara no Kyoukai and Mahoyo.

KnK's is pretty easy to say comes way after Zel v Brunestud. It's said it can't exist in the same universe as Tsukihime because there can't be two pairs of Mystic Eyes of Death Perception (for whatever reason).

Mahoyo is also different as there are a number of inconsistencies such as the Aozaki's ages and the fact that the house Alice and Aoko stay in is apparently that timeline's Tohno mansion.

Do you guys know more?

Also, is the Moon Cell a thing in every universe? Just... undiscovered? Wouldn't that make the concept of Brunestud as Type Moon kinda weird? Unless I'm an idiot and the Moon Cell is just inside the moon and isn't really "part of it" so to speak.

Again, sorry for the noobie questions. It's hard to find all the info when some translated mats don't really address such topics.

[Nanashi(kari)]

If I recall correctly Tsukihime and Mayoho are implied to be in the same timeline as Nasu said Clock Tower 2015 take place in the same world as these two.
I quite sure it has been that said the Moon Cell only exists in Extra timeline.

[TheSkipRow]

Then I guess Akiha or Makihisa did some heavy redesign for the mansion. Unless the old Tsukihime is thrown away from the canon and the Remake is the one he's referring to now.

[eddyak]

The KnK/FSN timelines are separate from the very beginning, IIRC. It's implied that Touko would've taken a different line of approach to magecraft and finding the Root because the existence of True Ancestors, as naturally more perfect or closer to the beginning or whatever, kinda undercuts her own research.

And the no-two-MEoDP users thing is fanon- they're just so goddamn rare and unheard of that even a mythical being like Arcueid is baffled.

It's a pretty good bet that Type-Moon wouldn't have been born(?) on a fake moon, so the Moon Cell likely isn't a thing in any timelines that include anything he ever spawned.

[TheSkipRow]

And the no-two-MEoDP users thing is fanon

Ah, same as the good old "Shiki cut distance to get to Araya"

[Reign]

According to Case Files Material, around the same time as Zelretch vs Crimson Moon, Blackmore despairs over CM's loss and accepts his death at the hands of an Executor. So the cause of the Tsuki vs Fate split seems to be that, or rather, whatever specifically made him give into despair in Fate worlds that didn't in Tsuki worlds.

[Comun]

The DAA are a group of vampires who really don't like each other in general, but can exist as a group for a common goal. That must that goal is achievable in Tsukihime timelines and impossible in Fate/ timelines.

[TheSkipRow]

The DAA are a group of vampires who really don't like each other in general, but can exist as a group for a common goal. That must that goal is achievable in Tsukihime timelines and impossible in Fate/ timelines.

As far as I'm aware we don't know what said goal was, right? It's most likely another Tsuki 2 concept that Nasu keeps in his basement.

[fumei]

Something something dark six

[AAM1232]

It's not like most Fate works and Tsukihime share the same Trees of Time in the first place for any timeline split to have happened, evidenced by the lack of incineration of Tsukihime by Goetia and varying strength of the Human Order in both Trees of Time. KnK on the other hand is in the same Tree of Time as GO given the GO event.

[Comun]

evidenced by the lack of incineration of Tsukihime by Goetia

What about Arcueid comparing the Dust of Osiris's Philosopher Stone deal to Human Order Inceration?

[AAM1232]

What about Arcueid comparing the Dust of Osiris's Philosopher Stone deal to Human Order Inceration?

Honestly no idea. Feels like a neat callback, but I'm not sure on that. A couple of theories could be: a)Goetia could have also existed in Tsukihime timelines and so render the whole thing moot, or b)Arc has access to knowledge across Parallel Worlds/Trees of Time and knew about it that way. Is there more context?

Especially given this by Mizukume/Lily Emilio.

https://www.reddit.com/r/grandorder/...clarified_the/

[Leftovers]

What about Arcueid comparing the Dust of Osiris's Philosopher Stone deal to Human Order Inceration?

An obtuse MB quote is infinitely more likely to be a reference to some Tsukihime/DAA thing than some Fate thing that was conceived of years later.

[AAM1232]

An obtuse MB quote is infinitely more likely to be a reference to some Tsukihime/DAA thing than some Fate thing that was conceived of years later.

To add on to this after some clarifying, the Ancient I isn't said to be Goetia but something likely local to Tsukihime. And Dust of Osiris's PS is closer to the Lion King's plan than anything, while the Ancient I's attempt was compared to Dust of Osiris.

So it's most likely to be what Leftovers said, where there's no real timeline link between Fate worlds and Tsukihime worlds and the Ancient I is most likely to be a Tsuki thing than Goetia.

[Lobo]

An obtuse MB quote is infinitely more likely to be a reference to some Tsukihime/DAA thing than some Fate thing that was conceived of years later.

But Dust of Osiris debuted on 2008, and now we know the oldest references Nasu has done to the Beasts, the "Evils of Humanity", date from the Extra/CCC games, the Prototype short and its databooks and Complete Material III for the Primate Murder vs 7 Guardians question (2010-2013), so is not that much of a strech to think Nasu was coming up with the idea of the Beasts I-VII around that time.
One of his interviews about FGO even said he came up with the plot by "bringing back the discarded scenarios of the Beasts" and build it up from that

[Leftovers]

Planned All Along is fake and ghey.

[Ubergeneral]

can anyone explain by Tsukuhime and fate and entirely different timelines?

I read both the Tsukuhime and FSN VNs and I can't see any reason why Tsukuhime would somehow make it impossible for the HGW to occur

- - - Updated - - -

Can anyone explain by Tsukuhime and fate and entirely different timelines?

I read both the Tsukuhime and FSN VNs and I can't see any reason why Tsukuhime would somehow make it impossible for the HGW to occur

[fumei]

Because they deal with entirely different themes, which are in turn supported by the world the stories exist in.

[Blastedspider]

In the Tsukihime-type worlds, Mankind is in decline and is going to do die; this is why the forces that reject their humanity (DAAs) are more numerous and better organized.
In the Fate-type worlds, Mankind is brimming with energy, which is why summoning of Counter-Force manifestations (Heroic Spirits) is possible, and the anti-Man forces are less potent on the whole. For example, although DAA-like individuals still exist in form of Superior Dead Apostles many of those who became them Tsukihime world are either dead or still humans.

[Ubergeneral]

In the Tsukihime-type worlds, Mankind is in decline and is going to do die; this is why the forces that reject their humanity (DAAs) are more numerous and better organized.
In the Fate-type worlds, Mankind is brimming with energy, which is why summoning of Counter-Force manifestations (Heroic Spirits) is possible, and the anti-Man forces are less potent on the whole. For example, although DAA-like individuals still exist in form of Superior Dead Apostles many of those who became them Tsukihime world are either dead or still humans.

Does this also mean that the Tsukihime timeline is the only one that is possible for Angel Notes to occur?