1st: Let's weight, shall we? On one hand, we have a girl and her wolf who just kidnapped him. On the other hand, we have Nanoha, Yuuno (who is his friend), the Takamachis (who are like family to him), Lindy, and KIRITSUGU. Who may or may not go Papa Wolf on Fate for kidnapping Shirou.
2nd: Because she know how the Jewed Seed works? Because she've been studying them to revive her daughter?
Not considering the fact that the Jewel Seed was messing with his mind, and could have quite lethal consequences =/
Plus Precia whips Fate...I really do not think she would give two faps about killing Shirou in order to extract the Jewel Seed.
Kiritsugu's a cripple in Hero's own words. He isn't doing anything. And Precia only thinks she knows how the Jewel Seeds work. Considering how she ends up in canon, it didn't turn out that well for her. >_>Originally Posted by lhklan
As long as she attempts to extract it while Shirou is alive, it's fine. That said, you could even have it that Precia does attempt to kill him, but is stopped by Fate because she doesn't want to see Shirou die.Not considering the fact that the Jewel Seed was messing with his mind, and could have quite lethal consequences =/
Plus Precia whips Fate...I really do not think she would give two faps about killing Shirou in order to extract the Jewel Seed.
... ... ... Being a cripple won't stop him from trying to save the one person he managed to save from Fuyuki Fire. Plus, Shirou have grown on him. Don't underestimate what a father can do.
Maybe she does, maybe she don't. All I know is, she will try to extract it, and she will kill Shirou if she have to.
Also, why would Fate try to stop Precia? At this point, she isn't Fate, Devourer of Shirous yet, and she don't have much of a bond with him. Compare that to a mother who she pretty much devote herself to despite the treatments, and there's no chance in hell Fate would try to stop Precia. Especially if that might make the woman love her more.
Hero's own words Ihklan. Not mine. Take it up with him.
You're underestimating Fate. That's all I'll say here.Maybe she does, maybe she don't. All I know is, she will try to extract it, and she will kill Shirou if she have to.
Also, why would Fate try to stop Precia? At this point, she isn't Fate, Devourer of Shirous yet, and she don't have much of a bond with him. Compare that to a mother who she pretty much devote herself to despite the treatments, and there's no chance in hell Fate would try to stop Precia. Especially if that might make the woman love her more.
edit: ...and I got work. Won't be back till late so I'm not going to be able to respond to anything in awhile.
Last edited by Muramasa; May 4th, 2012 at 02:45 PM.
No, lhklan isn't. Fate and Arf still don't know Shirou all that well. Sure they aren't complete stranger, but a bond hasn't been formed strong enough that they would go against Precia entirely. Keep in mind: Precia.
F/GO SUPPORT
I think you are overestimating her honestly.
Plus I can see Precia promising Fate that she will be careful with the kid and sending her back to earth...then just killing Shirou extracting the JS. Perfectly in character for everyone =/
Honestly Shirou surviving had he stayed with Fate seems farfetched to me.
Perhaps its just better that Precia never got the chance in the first place, because Putting Fate in such a situation would leave her conflicted between her morals and her total fear/adoration of her own mother that she'd probably end up with a BSOD.
Also, I just realized that while Shirou might feel horrible that he's powerless to help Fate, the hero-complex induced guilt trip will hit him full force when he sees Precia and Alica fall to their death will be even worse.
-----------------------------------------------------------
He could only watch them fall: the woman who he had seen as his enemy, the one who has caused so much pain for the girl known as Fate, and the girl who might have been Fate's elder sister. His outstretched arm grasped nothing but air, an useless gesture that was futile to begin with as the two plummeted into the dimensional rift.
Two more people who he was unable to safe.
Because he was too weak.
Because unlike Nanoha he did not have the power to face the girl in combat so he could reach out to her.
Because unlike Yuuno he wasn't smart, nor capable of great feats of magic without a device.
Because unlike Chrono he was a mediocre strategist, and has lost far to much time simply dealing with mindless automatons while the others had moved past them.
Because unlike Kiritsugu he was not even capable of saving a single life.
"What kind of hero am I........ if I cannot even save someone right in front of me!!" The boy cried out, tears streaming down his face.
Illya is best servant
Spoiler:
damn
Uh regarding Precia, wouldn't Shirou have no problem letting her die considering her brutality against Fate? Remember he is the kind of person who'd not help someone if he feels they brought about their own downfall. People like to emphasize his saving people aspect but I've never seen them talk about this:
Shirou is extremely stubborn once he sets out to accomplish something, such as spending hours attempting to perform a high jump that is nearly impossible for him. This action, as watched by Rin and Sakura, is one of the initial factors that causes them both to develop feelings for Shirou. He will stubbornly defend his own viewpoints, no matter how wrong they may seem to others, even to the point of causing them great mental anguish. Though he does his best to help others, if he feels that a person brought about their own ruin, he will simply watch instead of helping.
Took the word right out of my mouth
No, that comes more from a choice in UBW where he can ask for mercy for Kuzuki, or let him fight without saying anything. Shirou would beat himself up over not saving Precia and Alicia, because the ideal that drives him is to save everyone good and bad. If needed he would kill a suicidal guy with a bomb strapped to his chest, then beat himself up for not saving the guy with the bomb strapped to his chest.
Since there's a wall of text incoming, there's this little bit:
tl;dr: I think that Muramasa's idea is a good one, even though it would be more difficult to write in a believable way. And asking Muramasa to give an example was an awesome idea.
Actually, that's a perfectly normal response to people who complain about "something" being wrong with the plot but not giving any specifics. Because without any specifics, their complains aren't constructive, even if they aren't destructive either (because for the author, you are only sending a message that amounts to "story is wrong, change it", and while you are polite about it, it still isn't helpful for them). But I digress there, so getting to the main part...
That is... a very good proposition, I have to say. Seeing as he had problems with the Jewel Seed then, and his consciousness and memory were falling apart, it was pretty much a random choice on his part so it is a possible change.
Personally I see Fate trying to do it, and giving up after a while only for Arf to continue doing it against herself to help Fate. She'd probably also be the one to put Shirou as a bet, with there being a chance of him getting abducted with the other Jewel Seeds by Presea (that is, if Fate did not decide to bring him to the Garden of Time to prove that . It would stump Shirou's combat development for a while and make him bond with Fate instead of the TSAB guys, but it also opens the possibility of him learning something useful in combat (or even just reading one of the giant robots' weapons in the Garden of Time) and of Kiritsugu somehow getting involved in the strike (which would also serve as a plot hook for Shirou's bonding [friendship bonding, not romance] with Fate), and it is a very good alternate take on the way this story progresses.
That is also a good one. It's very possible that the dinner really did happen, but we simply haven't seen anything because the story is told from Shirou's perspective and the Jewel Seed put a few holes in his memories (unless you are referring to another scene, in which case I [as usually] blame it on my sleep deficit), so I can't really say anything about it, but you are right, that scene (or just fragments of it) could've been there.
Which would actually be a change, because that means Fate would first become Shirou's friend, and for Shirou she would become one of his "people to save", not because she fought with Nanoha, but because he felt her story and was with her when she suffered over not being able to find the plot trinkets, and because seeing him get hurt would make it easier for her to doubt Presea, especially with Arf looking very regretful over his fate (no pun intended, I just don't feel like using the thesaurus to avoid them). It would've also become more difficult for Nanoha to try to become Fate's friend because she would've had something to be mad at Fate for - "kidnapping" Shirou and allowing him to get hurt, while Nanoha couldn't do anything about it (which she'll definitely blame herself for). It would've also forced Yuuno to re-evaluate his opinion about Nanoha's drive to gather Jewel Seeds, because now he would see her being bothered by the plot development, and he'll know that she's doing it out of her own volition that that he needs her help. Kiritsugu could possibly get involved in the whole thing (because Nanoha, or somebody else, would have to inform him) and that means it the deus ex machina that is Midchildian medicine might be able to help Kiritsugu survive a year or two more.
The whole thing could possibly give us the plot hook that would allow Shirou to pester Kiritsugu about adopting Fate, and personally I see the old man complying to that. With this, after Kiritsugu's death, the situation would've changed even more, and I think that with Fate and Shirou being "together" (as adopted siblings, not as lovers), the situation could develop in a very different direction later, because there would've actually been a reason for Fate to be as close to Shirou as Nanoha is (or even closer), and that would've given us the possibility of an interesting development later in the Heaven's Feel arc, after Shirou sees how Shinji treats his own adopted sister.
And, seeing as the Jewel Seed has latched onto Avalon, there's nothing saying that Heroslayer can't just decide to make it impossible to extract without taking Avalon out, which only Kiritsugu knows how to do at that point (and Shirou will only find out later, if the sealing device he'd get in the future wouldn't block that inadvertently), and the Jewel Seed could react to the attempts to kill its host (meaning that it would save Shirou from Presea, somehow), what basically means that the only thing Presea would achieve is making Shirou suffer, and thus making Fate feel "something" (regret and pity, though she wouldn't be able to name it herself) towards Shirou.
She most probably would be, seeing as the only reason for Fate to bring him to Presea (if she decided to do that) would be precisely because of the Jewel Seed, of which she would've informed Presea.
If he got to hear the news of Shirou being kidnapped for real at that time, instead of only hearing it after Shirou's been taken to the Garden of Time. In which case he would later only be able to ask Fate about it (if at all), and he wouldn't hurt her after seeing her already being hurt over the whole thing. Presea, on the other hand, would have to be wary, and that opens a few plot hooks too, along with the possibility of her slowly self-destructing (which would be interesting to see, due to a few factors) after getting her Linker Core damaged by Kiritsugu's Mystic Code instead of just falling into a chasm.
Then again, there's nothing saying that the Jewel Seed has to work in exactly the same way when it's latched onto something that pretty much renders the user immortal and stuff. And since the Jewel Seed forcibly activated Shirou's UBW because of the sheer amount of power it has, there's nothing saying it can't do the same to Avalon in time of emergency. And there's nothing saying that it has to be just as extractable when it's latched onto Avalon, due to Avalon being bound to Shirou strongly enough to become his quasi-possession after a few years.
Well, humans are know to surpass their limits on occasions, if they have the determination for it. I know that it's different in Kiritsugu's case because he pretty much is kept alive by his determination, but then again, I don't think he would have to use any combat abilities with his Mystic Code if the others protected him with their magic (which they are capable of doing).
And there's nothing that says they wouldn't be able to help him at least temporarily if he came to them (for example, after learning that Shirou was kidnapped). Sure, they won't be able to save his life, but I think they would be able to prolong it slightly (a year or two), and with their technology I think they might be able to do something so that the level of pain (which is kind of the main reason he is a cripple, because he feels constant pain on the level that would've driven most people insane) he experiences falls to endurable levels.
Well, she knows something about them, but you are right, those are just random bits of information. And there weren't any practical experiments, so while she might know how to extract things sealed in other beings, there's nothing saying that she'll know how to extract this particular Jewel Seed.
I guess that could've happened later if she brought him to Presea. And her protest would only be met with a punishment from her mother, serving as another plot hook for Shirou and Fate to get closer (once again, as friends, or something). Heck, the very act of her protesting might be a start of something different, as one of the reasons Presea started hating Fate for not being Alicia was that, compared to Alicia, Fate was much meeker and not as assertive.
If we were given an ending of the first season's arc that would've allowed Presea to survive a little longer, she might've even realised in time that, even if it's not much, there is something in Fate, and admit (recalling the promise to Alicia) that she considers Fate to be her daughter (and possibly even apologise), only to die. That would've really been a big change in the story (and I don't think Fate would've allowed herself to get adopted by anyone other than Kiritsugu, since she would've felt differently about her mother, and Shirou would've been the only person she got close enough to).
That is true. But remember that the guy is pretty much only alive because of his willpower, so unless we got some deus ex machina in form of Midchildian medicine, it's unlikely that he'd be able to do anything. Not impossible, since he really would be capable of doing something like that if he got the willpower for that (they'd have to be rather blunt when telling him about Shirou's fate), but unlikely.
That depends on the amount of deux ex machina Heroslayer is willing to use in this story. And on his decisions regarding interactions between the Jewel Seed and Avalon. So you are possibly right, and possibly not.
Let's now take that situation:
Assume that Shirou was with Fate for a few days, with her and Arf trying to extract the Jewel Seed from him and failing (and only causing him pain), and him never stopping treating her like another human, and never becoming angry at her. Assume that after Fate brought Shirou to Presea, she just wanted her mother to remove the Jewel Seed and let the guy go. Assume that Presea responded to that by whipping Fate for her supposed failure to gather the plot trinkets, to which Shirou would respond with screaming at her to stop and trying to move (his movement would undoubtedly be sealed), and later with crying (for a child that's pretty much a normal response to helplessness) and repeating pleas for her to stop. Assume that Fate then saw Shirou suffer at the hands of Presea as she tried to remove the Jewel Seed from the boy, and didn't care to be as delicate as Fate when she did it.
I think she would be able to do it then, because she would've started to sympathize with him and regret her decision to bring him there. And for Fate, even in the original series, regrets and sympathising were always an important part of her; that's why she adopted (kind of) Erio and Caro, after all.
Then again, there is also a chance that Presea would just send Fate home and try to kill Shirou, in which case it would depend solely on the Jewel Seed/Avalon duo, but if Shirou actually survived that, the change to the story would've already been made, and the bond of Shirou and Fate would form after some time (especially with Nanoha asking Fate if Shirou's alright and trying to convince Fate to release him, which would make her regret the whole thing even more and start to doubt herself enough to actually attempt to get closer to him to ease her guilt).
Right now with this story, yes, you are right. Further in the story, if it took the turn that Muramasa proposed? It's possible, even if not certain. Because Fate doubts herself, and it is likely that she would get closer to someone who she saw was suffering, especially if she was the one inflicting pain upon him, just as she tries to get closer to her mother, who inflicts pain on her.
Of course, many things in such a story variant would depend on random chances (so technically speaking it would only be a matter of making the whole thing appear justifiable), and on the amounts of deux ex machina in form of Jewel Seed and/or Avalon Heroslayer would be willing to use, but it is possible for such a plot development to take place. Of course it's also possible for it to fail horribly, because the changes would snowball faster and thus be more difficult to control, but it's not like it'd be impossible to do it, if one was skilled enough.
On the other hand, if Fate actually reacted and tried to stop Presea, she would move one step closer to being like Alicia. Which would change her speech at the end, even if not by much, or even brought her memory of the promise she made to Alicia early enough not to wreck Fate utterly, which would be a rather large charge.
I agree. If he actually spent sometime in the Garden of Time (enough to hear one of Presea's rants about bringing Alicia to live), he wouldn't be indifferent. And even if he wouldn't be able to do anything about that, he'll just decide to make it up to Fate for allowing her mother to die.
Last edited by YamiheKazeto; May 4th, 2012 at 04:21 PM.
“Evil or not, I refuse to accept this 'fate'.”
Spoiler:
Yamihe used Mike-MultiQuote. Everyone is confused. o.O
F/GO SUPPORT
Yeah, I love walls of text. But hey, at least it's not about Sakura.
And there's even a "Too Long; Didn't Read" shortening on the top.
Last edited by YamiheKazeto; May 4th, 2012 at 04:23 PM.
“Evil or not, I refuse to accept this 'fate'.”
Spoiler:
Santo uses 'Ignore' on reflex, his guilty conscience makes it ineffective!
Well, at least its a well thought out wall of text that was long by necessity. And best of all it is not about sakura (^c^)Yeah, I love walls of text. But hey, at least it's not about Sakura.
And there's even a "Too Long; Didn't Read" shortening on the top.
Okay, I'm going to address some things. Not everything, but some things.
First off. The whole dinner thing. Who says that they didn't eat it. I never said that. Maybe Shirou ate with them, maybe not. Maybe Fate and Arf ate it later, maybe not. Or maybe it got destroyed in the scuffle with Fate and Arf, maybe not. You the reader decide.
The Fate Shirou interaction. Shirou is not in his complete right mind. He's hurt, confused, in pain and several other things. I could have had Shirou stay there and try to help. It would have been really easy too. However, it would have gone nowhere. Extraction of the Jewel Seed is not going to work on Shirou at that level and if you try to force it even more, well, Shirou goes splat like I showed in the Linith Tutor section. Fate at this point simply wants the Jewel Seed and wants Shirou out with as little harm done to him as possible. Is she lonely, yes, but I feel like Fate's drive to extract that sucker is a bit more powerful than her loneliness.
Fate takes Shirou to Precia. It is an interesting idea. I did debate whether or not to do this. But I felt like it would simply end up at a dead end. Precia is crazy. She hears, Jewel Seed stuck in boy, well boy is disposable. Rip it out of him.
Fate I feel at this point, wouldn't try to stop Precia. Would she regret her decision? Yes, terribly. For probably the rest of her life. But she's doing everything for her mother. Shirou has no real bond with her at this point to make any additional incentive to stop her mother. That's if you know, she not either not there hunting more Jewel Seeds with Precia telling her that the boy simply didn't survive the extraction just to make her suffer, or recovering from her whip wounds for not being able to do her job without help.
And that's if, if she took him to Precia. I think that Fate knows in her mind what would happen if she took Shirou to Precia. And despite all the fighting and kidnapping, Fate does not want to really hurt anybody. So yeah, didn't happen.
Now for the Jewel Seeds. Precia does have a good idea of how to channel the Jewel Seeds. She even admits that yes, she might not succeed with the amount she has. She had pushed her plans way ahead of schedule. She wants to cut a hole in time space to get to Alhazard or whatever. She cut a hole, there's just no knowing whether or not it worked.
I once again point at my Linith Tutoring section for why the Jewel Seed wouldn't help with a more powerful extraction attempt.
And for Precia. I for one think that Precia is so cuckoo for chocopuffs that even if Fate decided to act a bit more assertive and stuff, Precia would still hate her. She is nuts people.
Life at best is Bittersweet
-Jack Kirby
So there you go, sound arguments. I can see why you don't want to use deus ex machinas, and without them the development we discussed certainly is unlikely, if not outright impossible.
I find it kind of sad that you broke our fun with that, but meh, it's not the end of the world. And if you ever get to the point where you'll want to rewrite the story with quicker changes, you do have something there in reserve.
Why yes, it's just the difference between her outright rejecting Fate and telling her that she never cared about her before she died, and her pushing Fate away and telling her that she's the little sister that Alicia wanted but she still hates her before she died.
The difference isn't that great, but for Fate it would generate the feeling of being an unwanted child instead of the feeling of being a failed replacement. Which could make her mental development different than the canon one because, as we all know, people with issues are shaped by them, and thus that would cause her to centre more on being a good child and later mother instead of centring on searching for unwanted people. That, in turn, would change the development of Erio and Caro, if she even got around to adopting them in the first place.
Yeah, Presea is crazy and stuff, but she has her reasons for that (so to say, she has... issues). And her hate at Fate stems from her being a failed replacement of Alicia. Now, if she actually reached her memories of Alicia for some reason (and Fate acting a little more like Alicia can trigger that, even if too late to really allow Presea to change), she would start seeing Fate as a failed child instead of a failed replacement, even if it would take her enough time to notice that she would only be able to admit it in her moment of death.
But yeah, you gotta love the Nanoha movies for showing Fate's side of the whole thing.
“Evil or not, I refuse to accept this 'fate'.”
Spoiler:
In other words,if Shirou ever meets Precia due to Fate brought him before her he's as good as being fried. The best option for him is to stay safely with TSAB (No doubt everyone will prevent him from tryong to help since he's a target)
Well Heroslayer I'm actually more excited to see "if" Kiritsugu will get involved with The Garden of Time. Last time I heard someone here said that most likely Kiritsugu will talk to the mad woman rather than pointing his mystic code at her face. Well, the second one is more action oriented but overkill (Remember Kayneth?)
Knowing Kiritsugu and Presea, I think the talking would undoubtedly be succeeded by him shooting her.
But oh well...
“Evil or not, I refuse to accept this 'fate'.”
Spoiler:
Well we can only speculate, I mean I admit I like Fraggle's snippet where he shoots her and well knowing what it did to Kayneth' we will probably see Presea bleeding heavily on the floor. It's too easy.
At least she doesn't have a pool of mercury on the floor..........
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