What is canon?

[Twelveseal]

You know what? I feel like the Zelretch Observer idea is BS.

Tsukihime is stated to not have Servants and such because some garbage about humanity, at least after Tsuki and Fate were retconned into separate timelines. Yet Zel "currently" exists in both timelines; as a DAA and Wizard Marshal in Tsuki, and in his HF intervention and historically by intervening to create the HGW itself by bringing the Founders together.

Yet these two timelines should be mutually exclusive due to the decline in humanity that leads to vampires being common in Tsuki. If Zel Observer is accurate, either there's multiple Zels, or the canon timeline changes to be whichever one he's currently in.

Which means there isn't really a canon.

Or perhaps I should say it means that no part of Tsukihime is canon if Zelretch isn't actually present anymore?

No, actually thinking about it, doesn't this mean that basically nothing but Heaven's Feel is actually canon in the official, Nasu-made content? That timeline vetoes Tsuki, GO, EXTRA, maybe even KnK and Mahoyo...

[Bookworm Luke]

You know what? I feel like the Zelretch Observer idea is BS.

Tsukihime is stated to not have Servants and such because some garbage about humanity, at least after Tsuki and Fate were retconned into separate timelines. Yet Zel "currently" exists in both timelines; as a DAA and Wizard Marshal in Tsuki, and in his HF intervention and historically by intervening to create the HGW itself by bringing the Founders together.

Yet these two timelines should be mutually exclusive due to the decline in humanity that leads to vampires being common in Tsuki. If Zel Observer is accurate, either there's multiple Zels, or the canon timeline changes to be whichever one he's currently in.

Which means there isn't really a canon.

Or perhaps I should say it means that no part of Tsukihime is canon if Zelretch isn't actually present anymore?

No, actually thinking about it, doesn't this mean that basically nothing but Heaven's Feel is actually canon in the official, Nasu-made content? That timeline vetoes Tsuki, GO, EXTRA, maybe even KnK and Mahoyo...

I think you have some misunderstanding about the multiple Type Moon properties. The only universe that was isolated from the other was KnK, because there can only be one Mystic Eyes of Death Perception user at a time.

Tsukihime and Fate (the OG one) are in the same universe and same timeline.

Basically Zelretch fought Crimson Moon, witnessed the birth of Arc, and founded the Holy Grail all in one timeline.

In other words, among all the different routes in all the different stories, there is probably a "main timeline" with all the events that actually happened to push the history forward.

[LeadDemon]

Tsukihime and Fate (the OG one) are in the same universe and same timeline.

TYPE-MOONの伝奇……というか、奈須きのこがTYPE-MOONでやっている伝奇は『すべて同じ世界』と思われがちですが、それはあくまで基本であって大きく 二つ の系統に分かれている事は今までちょろちょろ説明してきました。


　英霊がサーヴァントとして使役できるFate世界と、
　英霊なんて強大な概念を“自律した使い魔”なんて術式に落とし込めるワケねーだろ、という月 姫世界ですね 。


Fate世界の下地は『人類史を肯定するもの』なので英霊も主役として考えられますが、
月姫世界の下地は『人類史を■■するもの』なので、その敵対者である死徒たちが主題となる、み たいな違いで す。


んで。月姫におけるある人物……教会において二十七祖の一人と数えられたもの……は『ある出会 い』を経て強 力な死徒となります。
しかしFate世界ではそもそも『ある出会い』がないため、死徒になりこそすれど『祖のひとり 』に数えられ るほどの力は持たず、その秘術も劣化したものとなります。

そのあたりの差違……世界の土台は同じでも前提が異なる事で登場人物の在り方も異なる……を楽 しんでいた だければこれ幸い。

They're very much not.

[Zurvan]

I take it you're deliberately ignoring the (later) additions that speak how there's no DAA's (there are still DA's tho) in Fate, and no servant summoning in Tsuki due to essentially humanity powerlevels in each setting

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sniped I guess

[Leftovers]

I think you have some misunderstanding about the multiple Type Moon properties. The only universe that was isolated from the other was KnK, because there can only be one Mystic Eyes of Death Perception user at a time.

Tsukihime and Fate (the OG one) are in the same universe and same timeline.

Basically Zelretch fought Crimson Moon, witnessed the birth of Arc, and founded the Holy Grail all in one timeline.

In other words, among all the different routes in all the different stories, there is probably a "main timeline" with all the events that actually happened to push the history forward.

Things have changed. Gotta rectify the disparities and quarantine the dead setting from the active one.

Zelretch can probably get a pass as an Ancestor with Kaleidoscope handwaving. The real question is why beating CM in the 4th century counts so much more than doing it a couple of centuries later.

[Bookworm Luke]

They're very much not.

OK, this I did not know. Thanks.

So we have retcon from the man himself that Tsukihime and Fate are different continuities.

Also, Arc didn't bite Roa in the Fate continuity? So that means it's really hammered in that the Tsukihime events could not happen in Fate.

Fascinating stuff.

[Twelveseal]

It's kind of irritating, really, how much shit gets changed seemingly on a whim sometimes.

[Bookworm Luke]

It's kind of irritating, really, how much shit gets changed seemingly on a whim sometimes.

Nasu probably got tired of people asking him why Dead Apostles Ancestors haven't wrecked all the Heroic Spirits and took over the Grail yet.

[fumei]

Also I'm pretty sure tsuki and fsn were never in the same TIMELINE. As far as I know this is a pretty common belief and comes from that Q&A where Nasu said "the end of tsuki is the start of fsn" or something along those lines. But that isn't saying they're directly related in the timeline sense, because the question was about the DATES of those events.

[Mattias]

So if DAA and HS are mutually exclusive, is there a reason Tsuki still couldn't happen in the F/SN world? From what I rad the DAA may still exist, they just aren't nearly as gamebreakingly powerful, probably on the level of mages who have lived a long while rather than being able to bend reality at a whim. So Arc wouldn't exist, and Ciel may not, depending of how debuffed Roa operates, but the Far Side routes would still be intact, wouldn't they?

[Bookworm Luke]

Also I'm pretty sure tsuki and fsn were never in the same TIMELINE. As far as I know this is a pretty common belief and comes from that Q&A where Nasu said "the end of tsuki is the start of fsn" or something along those lines. But that isn't saying they're directly related in the timeline sense, because the question was about the DATES of those events.

I am pretty sure the original intent was to be the same universe. There was another Q&A saying the settings between the two stories were just a train-ride away.

Even the BBB posted acknowledged that the stories "were frequently thought to be in the same world". It's acknowledging the fan perception.

This is true blue retcon my friend.

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So if DAA and HS are mutually exclusive, is there a reason Tsuki still couldn't happen in the F/SN world? From what I rad the DAA may still exist, they just aren't nearly as gamebreakingly powerful, probably on the level of mages who have lived a long while rather than being able to bend reality at a whim. So Arc wouldn't exist, and Ciel may not, depending of how debuffed Roa operates, but the Far Side routes would still be intact, wouldn't they?

The BBB post is hinting Arc never bit Roa in Fate-verse.

If Roa never corrupted Arc, then Tsukihime's story would not have happened.

[Ratman]

Which is weird, because there is also an opposing recent statement that Ciel would be basically the same, but Shiki and the Tohnos would be completely different people.

Sometimes it really feels like we're a bunch of muslims interpreting the Quran.

[fumei]

I am pretty sure the original intent was to be the same universe. There was another Q&A saying the settings between the two stories were just a train-ride away.

That is literally the same type of statement though, it carries no implication about any timelines whatsoever.

It's only a retcon so far as the fandom UNDERSTOOD it to work, and sure, you can argue that in the end that's what matters, but honestly with this community it's hard to tell.

[SpoonyViking]

Also, Arc didn't bite Roa in the Fate continuity?

She must have, because Roa still exists and is a vampire.
My understanding is that the individuals we know as Dead Apostle Ancestors - Nero, for instance - still exist in Fate worlds, it's just that the organisation known as Dead Apostle Ancestors doesn't exist.

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Oh, wait, just read Left's post. So Roa wasn't bitten by Arcueid, but still turned into a Dead Apostle somehow - only a weaker one.

[Bookworm Luke]

She must have, because Roa still exists and is a vampire.
My understanding is that the individuals we know as Dead Apostle Ancestors - Nero, for instance - still exist in Fate worlds, it's just that the organisation known as Dead Apostle Ancestors doesn't exist.

No, it's not my speculation, I am just telling you what the Japanese said.

The BBB post is suggesting Roa is a DA in Fate, but he never encountered Arc. As a result he is a lot less powerful and his reincarnation technique is also much degraded.

Nasu is trying really hard to tell you there is no way Fate and Tsukihime intersect.

[LeadDemon]

Roa could've just become a vampire in a different way in Fate timelines. It helps defend what little dignity he still has re: Dantes roasting him if he was significantly lower-grade in Fate.

Sniped.

[Ratman]

I don't know about little dignity, dude beat Altrogue in his prime. Losing to Dantes without the servant container sounds kind of ridiculous.

[Bookworm Luke]

That is literally the same type of statement though, it carries no implication about any timelines whatsoever.

It's only a retcon so far as the fandom UNDERSTOOD it to work, and sure, you can argue that in the end that's what matters, but honestly with this community it's hard to tell.

Well, Nasu was OK with the interpretation for more than 10 years, and was building on it with Q&A. He only bothered to correct it in 2017.

I mean you can defend him, but he looks pretty guilty for retcon.

[LeadDemon]

I don't know about little dignity, dude beat Altrogue in his prime. Losing to Dantes without the servant container sounds kind of ridiculous.

I mean in the sense that Roa's story is one of harsh decline as time goes on, both in universe and out of it.

[SpoonyViking]

Yeah, novel!Roa already gives a much less impressive showing than manga!Roa, for instance.