Trinity Angles (Discussion Thread)

[Arbitrarity]

Depending on interpretation it seems like there are several possible outcomes. Most notably, the interpretation that "those referred to as the Scarlet Seven" refers to the group, but not its constituent members (which would be required for the canon Rowlingverse; it's hard to say that Neville/Hermione/Luna/Ginny had no contribution to the canon defeat) allows a variety of monkey's paw scenarios where the group has a different name, one more or one fewer members, etc. That specific loophole gives a lot of room for minor-moderate divergences; having Tracy participate more in the group, re-introducing Harry, or somesuch.
You could also quibble about "had been defeated" covering his initial defeat at Dumbledore's hands, and nothing happening, though that's obviously not the intent. "intervention" is also quite broad, though interpreting it broadly tends to mean we'd have to go to another setting, as the Fourth Grail War premise you describe.

Other plausible but weird alternatives would be something like having the Tohno be responsible for actually defeating Voldemort, Shiki killing himself with Death Sight, or Dumbledore surviving and somehow being useful.

I also have to wonder a bit when in the timeline Tracey would end up; would she just be post-Battle of Hogwarts, or would we be Peggy Sue-ing?
I'm also unclear on how the Fourth War would result in the defeat of Voldemort... oh, unless he's participating, right. I'm not sure that really grabs me as a premise on its own, but perhaps.

[Kieran]

Depending on interpretation it seems like there are several possible outcomes. Most notably, the interpretation that "those referred to as the Scarlet Seven" refers to the group, but not its constituent members (which would be required for the canon Rowlingverse; it's hard to say that Neville/Hermione/Luna/Ginny had no contribution to the canon defeat) allows a variety of monkey's paw scenarios where the group has a different name, one more or one fewer members, etc. That specific loophole gives a lot of room for minor-moderate divergences; having Tracy participate more in the group, re-introducing Harry, or somesuch.

That is true, and not something I'd fully considered.

You could also quibble about "had been defeated" covering his initial defeat at Dumbledore's hands, and nothing happening, though that's obviously not the intent. "intervention" is also quite broad, though interpreting it broadly tends to mean we'd have to go to another setting, as the Fourth Grail War premise you describe.

Yes - although it might be amusing to have this tie into that Grail Works snippet I did recently, now that you bring broader possibilities up. If nothing else, Frid's constantly being mistaken for this "Galen Salvatore" would be baffling to him.

Other plausible but weird alternatives would be something like having the Tohno be responsible for actually defeating Voldemort, Shiki killing himself with Death Sight, or Dumbledore surviving and somehow being useful.

True - though I really struggle to see, at least offhand, how that last one would be possible . . .

I also have to wonder a bit when in the timeline Tracey would end up; would she just be post-Battle of Hogwarts, or would we be Peggy Sue-ing? I'm also unclear on how the Fourth War would result in the defeat of Voldemort... oh, unless he's participating, right. I'm not sure that really grabs me as a premise on its own, but perhaps.

In that case, the canon of the Harry Potter novels would be just that - dropping the Trinity, at least, back into TYPE-MOON cosmology, but circa 1998. As such, Shirou and Ilya would be 7 and 8 again (and Ilya WOULD NOT be happy about it), Kiritsugu and Shiki would retain their Trinity memories, having used the Kaleidostick before (as would Rin), with Takara theoretically not due to be born for another three years, and Galen MIA, since he only ever existed here as a Servant . . .

Then again, the Hallows have, in other potential timelines, shielded their masters from dimensional jumps; the Wand "duels" the ill effects (and wins, of course), the Stone anchors the soul and recalls it from Death, and the Cloak can conceal one from them, so it's possible that Takara and Galen can make the trip - sometimes, the effect can even be extended to others, as well. And even if they don't initially, Kiritsugu knows the outcome of the War, and Ilya knows everything Galen knows about it, which is a good deal more; at least one Master (and Servant) spot can be pre-empted . . .

[Arbitrarity]

Yes - although it might be amusing to have this tie into that Grail Works snippet I did recently, now that you bring broader possibilities up. If nothing else, Frid's constantly being mistaken for this "Galen Salvatore" would be baffling to him.

This is getting out of hand. Now there are two of them!

True - though I really struggle to see, at least offhand, how that last one would be possible . . .

I suppose "plausible" may have been overstating it. On the other hand, a close experience with death did do wonders for his perspective.

In that case, the canon of the Harry Potter novels would be just that - dropping the Trinity, at least, back into TYPE-MOON cosmology, but circa 1998. As such, Shirou and Ilya would be 7 and 8 again (and Ilya WOULD NOT be happy about it), Kiritsugu and Shiki would retain their Trinity memories, having used the Kaleidostick before (as would Rin), with Takara theoretically not due to be born for another three years, and Galen MIA, since he only ever existed here as a Servant . . .

Then again, the Hallows have, in other potential timelines, shielded their masters from dimensional jumps; the Wand "duels" the ill effects (and wins, of course), the Stone anchors the soul and recalls it from Death, and the Cloak can conceal one from them, so it's possible that Takara and Galen can make the trip - sometimes, the effect can even be extended to others, as well. And even if they don't initially, Kiritsugu knows the outcome of the War, and Ilya knows everything Galen knows about it, which is a good deal more; at least one Master (and Servant) spot can be pre-empted . . .

Ah, see that is the sort of context I needed to get the imagination running. For some reason I was assuming this was primarily affecting Voldemort and Tracey, which felt a bit bare-bones. Of those effects... I feel like Takara is the most at-risk. It's just very messy for her to exist there without paradox. Fujino (as a servant) or Artoria's Counter Guardian bargain come to mind as a plausible solution, though how you argue that with Alaya I have no idea.
Thinking about how that would wrap up makes me kind of sad though, unless they actually fix the timeline (with the Grail or similar). Choosing between "Takara wakes up 20 years in the future and it was all a dream (except the parts that weren't)" and the Trinity end-story state is pretty easy.

...actually now I'm wondering if that's usable for the Works' cleansed grail paradox. Hmmmm.

[Kieran]

This is getting out of hand. Now there are two of them!

I always appreciate a good reference.

I suppose "plausible" may have been overstating it. On the other hand, a close experience with death did do wonders for his perspective.

That is true . . .

Ah, see that is the sort of context I needed to get the imagination running. For some reason I was assuming this was primarily affecting Voldemort and Tracey, which felt a bit bare-bones.

I thought something like that might be the case.

Of those effects... I feel like Takara is the most at-risk. It's just very messy for her to exist there without paradox.

True - although given the existence of mixed settings like Carnival Phantasm and Strange/fake, it's not impossible . . .

Fujino (as a servant) or Artoria's Counter Guardian bargain come to mind as a plausible solution, though how you argue that with Alaya I have no idea.

No idea, either, though it worked for Shirou, in one timeline . . .

Or I could always try a Prisma Illya, and make it like Miyu's world, I guess.

Thinking about how that would wrap up makes me kind of sad though, unless they actually fix the timeline (with the Grail or similar). Choosing between "Takara wakes up 20 years in the future and it was all a dream (except the parts that weren't)"

Which was one of the original Legacies of Fate endings, if I recall . . .

and the Trinity end-story state is pretty easy.

I hope most people would think so.

...actually now I'm wondering if that's usable for the Works' cleansed grail paradox. Hmmmm.

How so?

[Arbitrarity]

No idea, either, though it worked for Shirou, in one timeline . . .

Yeaah I'm not sure I'd want to bargain Takara into a permanent Counter Guardian status after death, given Archer's perspective, though probably fixing the timeline gets her out of that. Stuff like Fujino implies that (for mildly silly purposes) Alaya may let you take the role for one job, if you're particularly useful or needed.

Or I could always try a Prisma Illya, and make it like Miyu's world, I guess.

Okay now I'm confused. Like... just the entire setting as a baseline, or taking specific elements, like Class Cards, or some of the Flash Air doll stuff? Certainly it's a good baseline "doomed" setting, and might mix things up enough to make most characters lose any value from their foreknowledge. If you wanted move just Takara/Galen/Shirou (and maybe Ilya) that could work though.

Which was one of the original Legacies of Fate endings, if I recall . . .

It's so much sadder after this long though. In that ending it was just a few weeks, here it's decades.

How so?

Nothing concrete, and it's probably too self-referential. Just was thinking that the only thing powerful-enough in the local area to restore the timeline would probably be the Grail, and that keeps the Fate/Zero plot roughly on track. Then remembered the Grail there is probably still corrupt, since in Legacies of Fate the Fifth War still happened, so they'd have to worry about it being corrupted. In the event there's some mechanism for the Grail not being corrupt, in order to restore them to the Trinity timeline, you now have a timeline with a non-corrupt Grail after the Fourth War.

There's a lot of hand-waving around the precise mechanism by which you'd uncorrupt a Grail, whether the timeline would actually continue to exist or be destroyed in the process, and what happens to the people you're moving back if the timeline doesn't just terminate (do they vanish, are they corrected, etc). Thinking of it like a Grand Order Singularity, which play fast and loose with that sort of thing, and assume things mostly self-correct.
It's not really narratively satisfying to fix a Grail Works problem from a Trinity timeline unless there's some amount of crossover though

[Kieran]

Yeaah I'm not sure I'd want to bargain Takara into a permanent Counter Guardian status after death, given Archer's perspective, though probably fixing the timeline gets her out of that. Stuff like Fujino implies that (for mildly silly purposes) Alaya may let you take the role for one job, if you're particularly useful or needed.

This is true - of course, since Takara's TYPE-MOON abilities are basically a lesser version of her parents' in one entity, and it has Ryogi Shiki on tap, you're left wondering why Alaya might require her as a witch, specifically . . .

Okay now I'm confused. Like... just the entire setting as a baseline, or taking specific elements, like Class Cards, or some of the Flash Air doll stuff? Certainly it's a good baseline "doomed" setting, and might mix things up enough to make most characters lose any value from their foreknowledge. If you wanted move just Takara/Galen/Shirou (and maybe Ilya) that could work though.

"Like Miyu's World" in the sense that it shares similarities with the canon we know, but generally follows its own setting rules for shits and giggles, as the saying goes.

It's so much sadder after this long though. In that ending it was just a few weeks, here it's decades.

You're not wrong - the really sad part is that it's almost too on-brand for TYPE-MOON . . .

Nothing concrete, and it's probably too self-referential. Just was thinking that the only thing powerful-enough in the local area to restore the timeline would probably be the Grail, and that keeps the Fate/Zero plot roughly on track. Then remembered the Grail there is probably still corrupt, since in Legacies of Fate the Fifth War still happened, so they'd have to worry about it being corrupted. In the event there's some mechanism for the Grail not being corrupt, in order to restore them to the Trinity timeline, you now have a timeline with a non-corrupt Grail after the Fourth War.

There's a lot of hand-waving around the precise mechanism by which you'd uncorrupt a Grail, whether the timeline would actually continue to exist or be destroyed in the process, and what happens to the people you're moving back if the timeline doesn't just terminate (do they vanish, are they corrected, etc). Thinking of it like a Grand Order Singularity, which play fast and loose with that sort of thing, and assume things mostly self-correct.
It's not really narratively satisfying to fix a Grail Works problem from a Trinity timeline unless there's some amount of crossover though

Truthfully? My plan right now would be to summon Galen, and then eliminate him - and let the Greater Grail/Angra Mainyu choke on him . . .

[Arbitrarity]

"Like Miyu's World" in the sense that it shares similarities with the canon we know, but generally follows its own setting rules for shits and giggles, as the saying goes.

Ah, gotcha.

Truthfully? My plan right now would be to summon Galen, and then eliminate him - and let the Greater Grail/Angra Mainyu choke on him . . .

I was assuming something like that or Melinoe (though given its track record, that might be... not great if we need the Grail intact). I associate it a bit more with purification than something like the Elder Wand. Rituals involving liberal application of blessed Elixir of Life also seemed reasonable, though given how massive the Greater Grail is, that felt messy. Also, it feels like they may not actually have access to the full complement of artifacts, or that their effect might be diminished. I think you canonized Godafrid being Angra's Downfall, so that also seemed like an obvious approach.

[Kieran]

Apologies - I missed this in the flurry over the Dossier thread . . .

I was assuming something like that or Melinoe (though given its track record, that might be... not great if we need the Grail intact).

Yeah - though if you were just looking to destroy it, it probably could . . .

I associate it a bit more with purification than something like the Elder Wand. Rituals involving liberal application of blessed Elixir of Life also seemed reasonable, though given how massive the Greater Grail is, that felt messy. Also, it feels like they may not actually have access to the full complement of artifacts, or that their effect might be diminished.

All reasonable guesses.

I think you canonized Godafrid being Angra's Downfall, so that also seemed like an obvious approach.

Actually, I foresee it going something like . . .


Angra Mainyu: I AM ALL THE WORLD'S EVIL . . .!

How adorable - you think you actually EXIST; that any of this is REAL . . .



. . . My one niggling doubt about such an ending is that I doubt it would be good for Irisviel . . .

[Kieran]

So with the release of the latest Power Rangers sourcebook, time travel is added to the mix, as well as what are probably the final two colours in the Ranger Spectrum:


Orange Ranger

The Orange energy of the Morphin GridÂ’s Ranger Spectrum embraces the power of imagination, inspiration, and artistry. Orange Rangers are filled with personality and creativity, along with the flexibility to improve their team. They tend to be inventors, artists, creators of ideas, and dreamers. Their flexibility lets them fill any need or position on the team, especially if the work allows them to set their creative mind to completing their task in some new and exciting way.

CREATIVITY RULES

The Orange energy of the Grid attaches itself to creative mentalities. It then enhances their ability to think outside the box and gives them the power needed to wield it on behalf of the side of good. They find new ways to accomplish tasks or overcome obstacles, often improvising or taking
unorthodox paths.


TEAM PLAYER

Even though an Orange Ranger excels when working alone due to their powers of creativity, they can also boost the team in many ways. Orange Rangers see the abilities and gifts of their fellow Rangers and, through the power of their part of the Spectrum, find more ways to wield them. When a team is hoping they need a particular proficiency or tool, even if they already have one but need two, an Orange Ranger can figure out a way to make that happen.

ONE OF A KIND

Unlike many other kinds of Ranger, who maintain a physical image like the other team members, those wielding the Orange Spectrum alter their Morphin shell to express their creativity. This sort of individuality is rare for the core elements in the Ranger Spectrum.



Purple Ranger

Purple Rangers wield the power of the Grid through their emotions, primarily fueled by memories. All the hardships they endured, the people they loved, and the camaraderie of the friends they made fuel the forge of power inside every Purple Ranger.

PASSION POWER

Purple Rangers know and understand the benefits of giving in to passion and keeping an emotional connection to all that drives them. Rage and anger can be necessary for enemy conflict, happiness can sweep away stressful hindrances, and the love of a best friend can make anyone a wall of defense
when they are in harmÂ’s way. These feelings add to a Purple RangerÂ’s power.

MAKE YOUR MARK

Each Purple Ranger draws upon their feelings in different and unique ways. One might lean into their rage and fury, showing their ferocity as an aggressive feel to their Morphed form. Another could stand defiantly in the path of harm, revealing how much they care for their fellows. Exactly how their feelings shape them is different for each Ranger, a sign that the Morphin GridÂ’s energies also listen to their heart.


ALWAYS ADAPTING

The nature of most sapient beings is to feel, and just as feelings can change, so can how a Purple Ranger uses them. They might find roots in their anger or a foundation in the sense of calm, but how they apply those tools can change at a momentÂ’s notice. Purple Rangers are fluid and malleable, changing how they need to come at the obstacles and enemies in their way based on the situation and their feelings at the time.




. . . Oddly enough, I think either of these would work well for Luna; Galen or Shirou might find an affinity to Orange, as well - and I think Ginny, Takara, or maybe Neville could serve well as Purple Rangers.


There's a new "Advanced" Spectrum role, as well - and oddly, this one functions like I thought they would when "Spectrum Shifting" was first brought up. It's inaccessible until a Ranger hits Level 4 (and can take the "Spectrum Shift" Perk), and its Level 1 - 3 abilities are holdovers from whatever the Ranger's original colour was.


Quantum Ranger

Based around a mysterious and powerful relic that has traveled through time and alternate dimensions, the Quantum Ranger is a powerful aspect of the Ranger Spectrum that is deeply rooted in the many branches of the spacetime continuum. They are the most elite of timeÂ’s enforcers, made so by the influence of their Quantum Morpher. Each timeline can only sustain a single Quantum Ranger, always someone called to the Quantum Controller in a moment of action.

CONTINUUM CRUSADER

The Quantum Morpher infuses the Quantum Ranger with a mixture of chrono-temporal and Morphin Grid energy. Just as the Grid uses its existence to
summon, store, shift, and empower things across different dimensions, the Quantum Morpher funnels the power of time and space into a Power Ranger. The Quantum Morpher also directs its user to enforce the laws of spacetime regardless of the RangerÂ’s desires and other duties.

QUANTUM TECHNOLOGIES

Made by the ancient Morphin Masters, the Quantum Controller builds off the existing energies within a Power Ranger and gives them a host of new powers and equipment. These special modifications include adjustments to their Morphin Shell, unique weaponry, and access to the powerful
Quantasaurus Rex (Mega) Zord.

A PRISM OF INFINITIES

The Morphin Grid filters and protects the Quantum Ranger from the overwhelming power of time and space, and any color of the Morphin Spectrum
can adapt to provide that protection. The most well-known Quantum Ranger, a human named Eric Myers, adopted the Quantum Ranger mantle through the red spectrum, but the Quantum Controller could latch on to any wavelength of Grid energy and filter it into a new Quantum Ranger. The
possibilities, like time and space, are endless.




. . . As this one is adaptable to any Ranger (including any of the other "Advanced Spectrum" colours), any one of the Scarlet Seven could serve this role - though if we're taking into account exposure to time travel, Galen and Hermione are the most obvious candidates, with Shirou (Archer, and all) and Ginny (via The Chosen) being the next-most.

[Arbitrarity]

Re: Quantum, Ilya as well, though she tends not to really be front-line. I'd say Rin, Galen, Shirou, Ilya might be the obvious candidates to my mind.

I'd lean Luna much more towards Orange than Purple, though she is quite well-connected to her emotions. I'm not sure I see Galen or Shirou as Orange, though it can fit. They do think outside the box, but frequently that's just because they're starting from a different paradigm, and I'm not sure it defines them in quite the same way.
Purple is... interesting. Everyone makes so much use of Occlumency that I tend to think of them as working against that sort of power. Ginny seems like it would work for her. Galen has lots of moments where he has strong emotions, but I feel like you'd have to lean into the drama of him having emotion-fuelled powers again (since the Wand of Passion certainly had some variation)

[Kieran]

Re: Quantum, Ilya as well, though she tends not to really be front-line. I'd say Rin, Galen, Shirou, Ilya might be the obvious candidates to my mind.

I admit, neither Rin nor Ilya crossed my mind . . . You've a point, though I expect, with those criteria, Ilya might be better recruited as a Phantom Ranger; it seems the closest to her original Grail state (being empowered by the entirety of the Morphin Grid to protect it, and all).

I'd lean Luna much more towards Orange than Purple, though she is quite well-connected to her emotions. I'm not sure I see Galen or Shirou as Orange, though it can fit. They do think outside the box, but frequently that's just because they're starting from a different paradigm, and I'm not sure it defines them in quite the same way.

That's fair. I'll admit, I was partly tempted just because the opening Perks for an Orange Ranger are called Cunning Plan and Think Fast! - they seemed so appropriate . . .

Purple is... interesting. Everyone makes so much use of Occlumency that I tend to think of them as working against that sort of power. Ginny seems like it would work for her. Galen has lots of moments where he has strong emotions, but I feel like you'd have to lean into the drama of him having emotion-fuelled powers again (since the Wand of Passion certainly had some variation)

It certainly seems like it would require a fair bit of self-knowledge, and acceptance of one's emotions (which, I think, would be the sticking point for a lot of them). It is why Ginny sprang more or less immediately to mind, though. Still, I had a closer look into how that manifests mechanically in the game, just to see if that made things any clearer:


EMOTIONAL MASTERY

Purple Rangers are fueled and empowered by their emotional roots, making minor enhancements to their Morphin shell based on the emotion at the forefront of their minds. Starting at 1st Level, a Purple Ranger notes Emotional Mastery over a number of options from the list below equal to the Ranger’s Emotional Range, shown in the table above (Note: begins with 2 at Level 1, ends with 11 at max level). Spending a Personal Power allows you to apply one of your chosen options for the remainder of the scene. As a Free action, you may spend a Personal Power to switch your active Emotional Mastery.

As you gain Levels, you choose additional Emotional Range options to add to your Emotional Mastery.

• Anger: You gain a +1 bonus to Unarmed and One-Handed weapon Attacks.

• Contempt: You gain Resistance to any one type of damage.

• Disgust: The first Skill Test to target you each turn suffers +1.

• Distress: Your Movement values increase by 10 feet whenever you begin your turn within 10 feet of an enemy.

• Fear: Your Willpower and Cleverness Defenses increase by 3.

• Guilt: You may re-roll any d20 result of 1.

• Interest: You gain Edge on all Alertness and Culture Skill Tests.

• Joy: When within 5ft of an ally, you gain +1 on the first Skill Test you take each turn.

• Sadness: Your Morphin shell Armor bonus increases by 2 Toughness and 2 Evasion.

• Shame: You gain +1 on your next Skill Test after being targeted by an enemy’s Success. This is doubled to +2 for a Critical Success!

• Shyness: You become Invisible until you make an Attack or suffer damage from any source. You may re-initiate this Emotional Mastery with an additional Personal Power expenditure.

• Surprise: Instead of rolling normally, you may set your place in the Initiative order immediately after any other participant in the Combat scene’s order.


EMOTIONAL STRENGTH

While the thoughts and memories of their emotional moments fuel them at a core level, Purple Rangers can also benefit from the raw feelings they experience. At 2nd Level, you can regain 1d2 Power Points immediately once you experience a specific trigger attached to whatever Emotional Mastery options you have active at the time. Emotional Strength can only activate once per scene.

• Anger: You suffer damage.

• Contempt: An enemy achieves a Critical Success.

• Disgust: An ally Fumbles.

• Distress: You Fumble a Skill Test.

• Fear: You gain the Frightened or Impaired condition.

• Guilt: You are part of a Group Test that fails.

• Interest: You discover something hidden.

• Joy: An ally achieves a Critical Success.

• Sadness: An ally gains any Condition.

• Shame: You fail a Skill Test that benefitted from a +1 or greater bonus.

• Shyness: You fail a Skill Test benefitting from another character’s Lend Assistance action.

• Surprise: You roll a result of exactly 2 or of 25+ on any Skill Test.


UNIQUE STRIKE (MELEE)

The Purple Rangers’ Attacks express their emotions in ways traditional fighting styles do not match. Upon reaching 2nd Level, you may design a weaponless Melee Attack that only you can use. You may have it look however you wish and name it accordingly. Use the following checklist to create your Unique Strike (Melee).

• You create the Attack Name

• You choose Finesse or Might as the Attack Skill Test

• Your Attack Range is your natural Reach.

• Your Attack inflicts a base 1 damage, but you choose the damage type.

• You may add one Alternate Effect from the following: Accurate (+1), Armor Piercing, Maneuver (-1), Multiple Attacks (2, -1)

To access your Unique Strike, you must be Morphed and possess at least 1 Personal Power, although you do not have to spend Power to use it.



. . . I can't really fault them in terms of being thorough, as far as emotional range goes.

At least it confirms that any of the Seven could work, if it seemed appropriate for them.

[Kieran]

As I feared, last week was just the lead-up to this week, in terms of negative effects on my writing time/energy. So apologies, but nothing new this week, either.

But why am I posting that announcement here, you ask . . .? Two reasons. First, the time of year is poking me to do another Trinity holiday snippet; maybe the segment leading up to last year's intended snippet, or even just a return to Alex's storyline - or something entirely new. I haven't quite decided yet.

The second reason is that I've run across a song that I thought was too appropriate not to add to the unofficial Trinity soundtrack; it could apply to so many characters and pairings, at so many different points, that it might even serve as the theme song: