Sakura's problem: I still confuse about Magic Crest and Sealing designations.

[Deathhappens]

I know. I mean that protection isn't good enough to protect her from MA.
- Tohsaka now just the name left. She is the only one remaining.
- Kirei + Church may be protecting her, but they will not try hard if everything becomes more terrible.


If MA's law is against the idea of capture the clan's heir. They will just do it follow the dirty way ( " the Tohsaka's heir suddenly disappear. We still can't find who is kidnapped that poor girl.").


= > So, everyone now accepts that Tokiomi was actually overly paranoid about Sakura's potential fate ( Sealing Designations)?

------------------------

by the way.
talking about the children's relationship under Magus family. one among the reasons of anyone want to protect Tokiomi:
- Children of the Magus family always conflict and try to kill each other, because of Magic Crest.


https://www.facebook.com/TMTHEORY/photos/is-tokiomi-a-good-dad-a-discussionlong-answer-short-i-think-he-isnow-the-long-an/2413919302216792/


However, when I read Case Files, I don't see everything follow that way at all.


Magic Crest is precious, of course. But many Magus still become the powerful while doesn't have Magic Crest. Some guys fight against their own brother/sister to take MC, some other refuses it ( Heine) or doesn't care about it ( Jibourou).


I think Magic Crest is the same as the King's crown. Yeah, many princes usually kill each other because of it, but not everyone. Some other princes simply give up it, or even refuse it. So, the conflict between Magus's children isn't always happening in every case.

• Why Rin - Sakura hated each other? It is because they misunderstood each other. Sakura very loves Rin, but she thinks Rin hates her. Rin very love Sakura, but she doesn't know how to explain her feeling.
• Aozaki sisters are a different case. They actually don't grow up together, don't really have a close relationship. Touko is raised to receive MC, and their grandfather suddenly give it to Aoko. It is normal when Touko finally hate Aoko because of that.

Many Magus use their remain child for political marriage. But it isn't the only way to go,too. Not every Magus care about improve their children's Magic Circuits. Tokiomi finally married Aoi, a woman from the normal family ( who give up their way as Magus from long ago).


= > I think Tokiomi is wrong when say that his daughters don't have any way to live as the normal human. They total can. They only need to learn how to manage their power, and hide it from the society and MA.

It's not like being a rare specimen means you automatically have a price put on your head and bounty hunters come to kill you if you make a mistake or anything. In fact, being from the Far East, and a relatively suburban place at that (Fuyuki City is big, but not metropolitan big), means there's next to no Association presence in the area to begin with. The rare magus that might happen to pass through and might happen to encounter Rin would at most be surprised a magus of such talent is living in the boonies, or that a child is the Second Owner of the entire city. They would have to be pretty desperate to actually launch an attack or something like that and the Mage Association (insofar as they would give a shit over such a petty squabble) would most likely not approve of someone launching such a "coup" willy-nilly.

[TheSeaDragon]

I feel this is one of those things that like probably made logical sense at the time, but as Fate expanded and we learned more about magus society, it made less sense on Tokiomi's part and just feels like it was to get Sakura into the Matou's.

It still works for the story if you think Tokiomi's decision stemmed from flaws like pride & ignorance.

I feel the same

[warellis]

However, when I read Case Files, I don't see everything follow that way at all.


Magic Crest is precious, of course. But many Magus still become the powerful while doesn't have Magic Crest. Some guys fight against their own brother/sister to take MC, some other refuses it ( Heine) or doesn't care about it ( Jibourou).


I think Magic Crest is the same as the King's crown. Yeah, many princes usually kill each other because of it, but not everyone. Some other princes simply give up it, or even refuse it. So, the conflict between Magus's children isn't always happening in every case.

Literally in Case Files Volume 1, we see an example of just bad a fight over the Crest can be, with that fake mountain hermit (yamabushi) magus telling Grey, or the other little girl, that his family pretty much wiped itself out fighting over the Crest and he inherited it because he arrived late to the party thankfully. Like he literally got it from his practically burned to death dad, IIRC.

Also, Tokiomi wanted Sakura to have legal protection (a Crest so thst the Association wouldn't just try to take her for a Sealing Designation), actual protection (taught how to use her abilities, and taught well, so that some random crazy magus doesn't just snatch her off the streets and turn her into a pile of parts after "researching" her), and be a wealthy magus much like himself and how he believed Rin would be.

He just had the bad luck to live right next to the magus equivalent of Bill Cosby essentially, dooming Sakura to becoming a more boring character compared to the other girls in FSN.

None of this is hard to understand at all, even with Case Files I would say.

[kohaku]

Literally in Case Files Volume 1, we see an example of just bad a fight over the Crest can be, with that fake mountain hermit (yamabushi) magus telling Grey, or the other little girl, that his family pretty much wiped itself out fighting over the Crest and he inherited it because he arrived late to the party thankfully. Like he literally got it from his practically burned to death dad, IIRC.

Also, Tokiomi wanted Sakura to have legal protection (a Crest so thst the Association wouldn't just try to take her for a Sealing Designation), actual protection (taught how to use her abilities, and taught well, so that some random crazy magus doesn't just snatch her off the streets and turn her into a pile of parts after "researching" her), and be a wealthy magus much like himself and how he believed Rin would be.

He just had the bad luck to live right next to the magus equivalent of Bill Cosby essentially, dooming Sakura to becoming a more boring character compared to the other girls in FSN.

None of this is hard to understand at all, even with Case Files I would say.

I exactly saying about Jibourou's case. His story actually confirms that the conflict is something that depends on many elements more than " it certainly will happen.".


Jibourou doesn't care about MC. I feel he have a good relationship with his older brother ( who received MC). It is another brothers who starve MC enough to kill the oldest brother. Even Heine refused MC,too. Rin and Sakura conflict with each other not because of MC.


------------
Compare FZ + Interview + FSN. Look like Tokiomi is trying to fool himself. While he actually sold his daughter away for his ambition about the immortal and Akasha, he explain as it is for his daughter's sake. In FSN, both Zouken and Kirei show us that Tokiomi actually know about Zouken more deeply than he says in FZ. Even Zouken confirms that Tokiomi sent Sakura to Matou for their " experimental" to win HGW, more than his daughter's sake.


If he fears that his daughter will be kidnapped by the MA, why he leaves Rin alone and say " I give you the freedom to choose..."??? He thinks the protection of the Tohsaka family ( which actually just one member remaining is...Rin) will protect Rin, really? If MA really wants Rin, who will protect her, actually?


Kirei? Church? Maybe they can help to raise her. But they will never fight against MA just to protect her.
------------------

Look at Kiritsugu's father, I don't think both MC the family's protection work at all ( against SD). If they MA really want, they will hunt you. If they is prevented by some law ( don't know if it really exists the law " can't kidnap the family's heir who got MC"), they will simply follow dirty way. Rin's case during 10 years, she is too easy a target to hunt.

[Deathhappens]

Literally in Case Files Volume 1, we see an example of just bad a fight over the Crest can be, with that fake mountain hermit (yamabushi) magus telling Grey, or the other little girl, that his family pretty much wiped itself out fighting over the Crest and he inherited it because he arrived late to the party thankfully. Like he literally got it from his practically burned to death dad, IIRC.

Also, Tokiomi wanted Sakura to have legal protection (a Crest so thst the Association wouldn't just try to take her for a Sealing Designation), actual protection (taught how to use her abilities, and taught well, so that some random crazy magus doesn't just snatch her off the streets and turn her into a pile of parts after "researching" her), and be a wealthy magus much like himself and how he believed Rin would be.

He just had the bad luck to live right next to the magus equivalent of Bill Cosby essentially, dooming Sakura to becoming a more boring character compared to the other girls in FSN.

None of this is hard to understand at all, even with Case Files I would say.

Magic Crests aren't any kind of "legal" (insofar as the Association has laws in any case) protection at all. All they signify is that there was a mage who figured out the trick of passing down some of his or her circuits and magical know-how to another mage. The Association neither controls who has/makes their own Magic Crests, nor affords any particular consideration to owners of such (beyond the respect due to someone carrying the equivalent of several generations of research as a fancy tattoo on their body).

[Deathhappens]

I exactly saying about Jibourou's case. His story actually confirms that the conflict is something that depends on many elements more than " it certainly will happen.".


Jibourou doesn't care about MC. I feel he have a good relationship with his older brother ( who received MC). It is another brothers who starve MC enough to kill the oldest brother. Even Heine refused MC,too. Rin and Sakura conflict with each other not because of MC.


------------
Compare FZ + Interview + FSN. Look like Tokiomi is trying to fool himself. While he actually sold his daughter away for his ambition about the immortal and Akasha, he explain as it is for his daughter's sake. In FSN, both Zouken and Kirei show us that Tokiomi actually know about Zouken more deeply than he says in FZ. Even Zouken confirms that Tokiomi sent Sakura to Matou for their " experimental" to win HGW, more than his daughter's sake.

Tokiomi has no way of knowing whether Sakura and Rin WOULD fight each other over the Crest or not, but he has a whole lot of precedent of families destroyed because of just such an issue.

If he fears that his daughter will be kidnapped by the MA, why he leaves Rin alone and say " I give you the freedom to choose..."??? He thinks the protection of the Tohsaka family ( which actually just one member remaining is...Rin) will protect Rin, really? If MA really wants Rin, who will protect her, actually?


Kirei? Church? Maybe they can help to raise her. But they will never fight against MA just to protect her.
------------------

I don't know why you're still harping on about this since you say you've read Case Files, but there is no such thing as "being kidnapped by the Association".The Association is not a monolithic organisation; heck, they're barely any kind of organisation at all. Moreover, they explitly DON'T have as many eyes in the Far East, let alone the boonies where Tokiomi lives. There is no danger of either of the girls getting a Sealing Designation from the Association just for existing and Tokiomi is well aware of that. What there IS a danger of is that if one of them is left completely ignorant of magecraft (which is what he thinks he has to do) they may fall victim to any unscrupulous magus that might happen to come across them and decide to experiment on them. Again, it's not like there's any law that's going to stop them; any magus could in theory straight up murder any other magus and steal all their stuff and there's not much the Association would do about it unless one of the Lords or someone else with enough influence was personally motivated to investigate. A random civilian who happened to have an interesting magical constitution? Who cares? Again, just look at Case Files. "The protection of the Tohsaka family" is the training and abilities he instilled into Rin and (more importantly) the firepower contained within the Magic Crest he passed on to her. Also, Kirei taught her Ba Ji Quan for a reason, and it wasn't just fitness.

Look at Kiritsugu's father, I don't think both MC the family's protection work at all ( against SD). If they MA really want, they will hunt you. If they is prevented by some law ( don't know if it really exists the law " can't kidnap the family's heir who got MC"), they will simply follow dirty way. Rin's case during 10 years, she is too easy a target to hunt.

[/quote]

Noritaka is just about the only thing the Association has any kind of organised reaction to, a Sealing Designee on the loose. He's pretty much the closest thing to a criminal the Mage Association has, which is why he's hunted down by the Association. Of course having a Crest doesn't protect you from the law (not that it would otherwise) when you used that Crest to break the law in the first place.

[kohaku]

I don't know why you're still harping on about this since you say you've read Case Files, but there is no such thing as "being kidnapped by the Association".The Association is not a monolithic organisation; heck, they're barely any kind of organisation at all. Moreover, they explitly DON'T have as many eyes in the Far East, let alone the boonies where Tokiomi lives. There is no danger of either of the girls getting a Sealing Designation from the Association just for existing and Tokiomi is well aware of that. What there IS a danger of is that if one of them is left completely ignorant of magecraft (which is what he thinks he has to do) they may fall victim to any unscrupulous magus that might happen to come across them and decide to experiment on them. Again, it's not like there's any law that's going to stop them; any magus could in theory straight up murder any other magus and steal all their stuff and there's not much the Association would do about it unless one of the Lords or someone else with enough influence was personally motivated to investigate. A random civilian who happened to have an interesting magical constitution? Who cares? Again, just look at Case Files. "The protection of the Tohsaka family" is the training and abilities he instilled into Rin and (more importantly) the firepower contained within the Magic Crest he passed on to her. Also, Kirei taught her Ba Ji Quan for a reason, and it wasn't just fitness.

I'm not talking about my own idea.
It is the idea of someone like this:
https://www.facebook.com/TMTHEORY/ph...3919302216792/

But Tokiomi said in FZ, he fear they are kidnapped by MA, not other random Magus:

" If the Association found this kind of ‘ordinary humans’, those guys would definitely gladly put her in formaldehyde as a specimen in the name of ‘protection’."

However, is it really existed any law that the family can only teach magecraft to one of their children?
Both Sola-Ui and Bram know and can practice magecraft. MC is the only thing their family can only give to one of them.

Tokiomi has no way of knowing whether Sakura and Rin WOULD fight each other over the Crest or not, but he has a whole lot of precedent of families destroyed because of just such an issue.

But this isn't his trouble.
He mentioned it in FZ: it is ok if my daughters fight against each other.
Gen's interview: He is total ok if their daughters really kill each other as in HF route.

So, it isn't Tokiomi's reason to send his daughter away from the beginning.

[You]

However, is it really existed any law that the family can only teach magecraft to one of their children?
Both Sola-Ui and Bram know and can practice magecraft. MC is the only thing their family can only give to one of them.

Sophia Ri is a Lord family. Sola knows magecraft due to the family in-fighting requiring her to be a spare. After the succession was decided, they disavowed her as a member of the family.
They then expected to her be married into another family and serve as that magus's assistant.

owever, at the time Sola-Ui was born, the Nuada-Re family was embroiled in a tumultuous power struggle, and there was a very real fear that their legitimate heir could be assassinated. As a result, they enacted a plan to train both the older brother and the younger sister in the rudiments of sorcery, so that either one could inherit the family crest.
In the end, though, the conflict died out before anything happened to either child, and Sola-Ui’s older brother was given the crest and the title of successor. Sola-Ui, on the other hand, was no longer of any use to her family, and her very existence was disavowed. She became a mere tool to be given away in a political marriage, where her excellent physical capacity for sorcery and childhood training would allow her to serve as an assistant for some first-rate magus.

This is not what Tokiomi wanted for Sakura. IMO for him, having Sakura trained to a level where she could only serve as an assistant to be married away to someone would be worse than giving her up for adoption to become the heir of a magecraft house.
For Tokiomi what matters was not squandering the talent in Sakura.
The irony as everyone has said, is that for all his hopes and dreams for her in making such a decision, that talent was mostly squandered because of his decision.

[You]

nor affords any particular consideration to owners of such (beyond the respect due to someone carrying the equivalent of several generations of research as a fancy tattoo on their body).

They do afford enough consideration that being the heir to a family + some probably generous negotiation can retain the right to at least a considerable fragment of a Crest even if it contained Sealing Designated level magecraft.

And what’s the most precious of all are the Magic Crests carved on the magi’s flesh. Magic Crests that are created through generations of research can produce even greater powers when it is passed onto the successor, especially for magi families.

Through the negotiations Natalia had made with the Association, a section of the Magic Crests gathered from Emiya Norikata’s body was allowed to be inherited by his son Emiya Kiritsugu. Although the important parts were confiscated by the Association and only a ‘fragment’ of barely half the original amount was allowed for Emiya Kiritsugu to inherit, it was enough for Kiritsugu to use his abilities as a magus. Besides, Kiritsugu didn’t have the intention of following his father’s dying wish and continuing magecraft research to begin with.

[kohaku]

Sophia Ri is a Lord family. Sola knows magecraft due to the family in-fighting requiring her to be a spare. After the succession was decided, they disavowed her as a member of the family.
They then expected to her be married into another family and serve as that magus's assistant.


This is not what Tokiomi wanted for Sakura. IMO for him, having Sakura trained to a level where she could only serve as an assistant to be married away to someone would be worse than giving her up for adoption to become the heir of a magecraft house.
For Tokiomi what matters was not squandering the talent in Sakura.
The irony as everyone has said, is that for all his hopes and dreams for her in making such a decision, that talent was mostly squandered because of his decision.

No no. I mean, Sola-Ui's case is the evidence shows us that a family can raise many of their children become the Magus,right? Don't really exist any law that " every family only can raise one child become the Magus", right?

Politic marriage is the result of her family's situation ( her brother did not success as the Magus; her family have some troubles with other family. They need the ally). Not every family follow that way. It isn't the law or the tradition, just the family's choice.

[You]

There is nothing illegal according to the Association about teaching both your children magecraft, no. But it is a tradition among western magi to only teach another child magecraft if there is no other choice or if you are going to use that child as a political tool e.g. sola as spare turned into marriage chip, caules as a spare and caretaker
Sakura and Rin's case is entirely different. Both have supposedly equal magical potential. There is only one crest. If both are equal whoever gets the crest and inherits the family > than the one who doesn't have the crest.
Tokiomi believed both should be able to live their best magical lives possible, considering their tremendous talents. He believes he is unable to give both of his daughters that.

[TheSeaDragon]

Sophia Ri is a Lord family. Sola knows magecraft due to the family in-fighting requiring her to be a spare. After the succession was decided, they disavowed her as a member of the family.
They then expected to her be married into another family and serve as that magus's assistant.


This is not what Tokiomi wanted for Sakura. IMO for him, having Sakura trained to a level where she could only serve as an assistant to be married away to someone would be worse than giving her up for adoption to become the heir of a magecraft house.
For Tokiomi what matters was not squandering the talent in Sakura.
The irony as everyone has said, is that for all his hopes and dreams for her in making such a decision, that talent was mostly squandered because of his decision.

Yup, what he tried to avoid is mostly what happened, its quite like a greek tragedy, or it would be if it just ended in Zero

Since you are here, could you reply my question in the HF movies thread on the anime sub forum ?

[Deathhappens]

They do afford enough consideration that being the heir to a family + some probably generous negotiation can retain the right to at least a considerable fragment of a Crest even if it contained Sealing Designated level magecraft.

Well, like I said, it's not respecting the Crest itself so much as the potential knowledge existing inside it. Nobody would give a shit if Waver had a Crest passed down from his grandma, for example.

[kohaku]

There is nothing illegal according to the Association about teaching both your children magecraft, no. But it is a tradition among western magi to only teach another child magecraft if there is no other choice or if you are going to use that child as a political tool e.g. sola as spare turned into marriage chip, caules as a spare and caretaker
Sakura and Rin's case is entirely different. Both have supposedly equal magical potential. There is only one crest. If both are equal whoever gets the crest and inherits the family > than the one who doesn't have the crest.
Tokiomi believed both should be able to live their best magical lives possible, considering their tremendous talents. He believes he is unable to give both of his daughters that.

talking about the tradition.
Western Magus usually use the marriage to give birth the next generation with more Magic Circuits,too.
Look at Tokiomi? He married the normal woman from the normal family ( ex-Magus family).
So. The tradition isn't something you have to follow everytime. Especially, you don't need to follow the tradition of somewhere far away from you.
---------------------

Summary.
" you can't live the normal life.".
" If you aren't become the heir, I have to marry you to some other Magus for the politic marriage."
" A family can't raise more than one child become the Magus.".

It is all the ridiculous reasons. Don't really exist any law about that. No one really force them follow that way. It is his choice more than " it is my daughters' fate."

All of his daughters' problems are how to learn magecraft and control their own power. That is all.

[Menwearpink]

Does it really count.

Aoi has a super I give birth to super mages trait which is why Zouken was like "Hey she's pretty something" and so on.

Regardless the traditions exist usually for reasons. Mainly because if you aren't the heir you don't really have a future as a magus so on.

[madarra]

And Aoi's super power was nearly gonna have her turned into worm food.

[Menwearpink]

If she gets the job done she wouldn’t be fed.

[kohaku]

Regardless the traditions exist usually for reasons. Mainly because if you aren't the heir you don't really have a future as a magus so on.

But both Aoko and Touko finally become the great Magus, right?
And they actually have the " highschool" in the Clock Tower, right? Almost of these "teachers" from these old families,too.

--------------------------------

another question:

Why Zouken didn't train Sakura follow her Hollow Element? Instead, he trained her follow Matou's Water Elements?

Does he think Hollow isn't good to fight in HGW than Water? Or he simply doesn't know how to train her?

[TheSeaDragon]

If she gets the job done she wouldn’t be fed.

so, shinjis mother was jut worm food because he sucked ?

Danm..

[Menwearpink]

But both Aoko and Touko finally become the great Magus, right?
And they actually have the " highschool" in the Clock Tower, right? Almost of these "teachers" from these old families,too.

--------------------------------

Touko's very very very far from a normal example.

another question:

Why Zouken didn't train Sakura follow her Hollow Element? Instead, he trained her follow Matou's Water Elements?

Does he think Hollow isn't good to fight in HGW than Water? Or he simply doesn't know how to train her?

The Matou Magecraft is a magecraft that comes from a water alignment so.

Absorption is very spooky honestly, even when you're not Melt.