Sakura's problem: I still confuse about Magic Crest and Sealing designations.

[kohaku]

with me. I think the characters are these NPCs who have their AI.


I mean, you should put your characters in the background, and imagine " with this character, what he/she will do?".


Instead, Gen and Nasu usually force their characters have to work to follow the writers' idea. That is why I always think " have something wrong with the story.".


Exp:
Do anyone wonder why:
- Kariya never tried to tell Aoi about the worms, when he actually knows about it. He keeps silent just because Aoi said " you shouldn't complain anymore.".
- Why Kariya doesn't go to Tohsaka and tell both Aoi and Tokiomi what is happening with their daughter? It is his best chance to create the conflict between Aoi-Tokiomi. We can easily know what Tokiomi is thinking, and Aoi loves her daughter or her husband.


--------------------
Exp2: Sakura's tragedy full of plot holes.


both Gen and Nasu are too ambitious when trying to force Sakura' tragedy to happen, while trying to explain Tokiomi is a " good guy", and everything just a "misunderstanding".


yeah. He send his daughter away, to the dangerous vampire ( even he sees Zouken is awful.) with just his beautiful imagination. And, even he feels has something wrong with his decision, he tried his best to " help" the tragedy to happen:
- Refuse to ask " the traitor" Kariya about the Matou's method.
- Refuse to use Assassin to spy on what is happening.
- Banned Rin to get close to Sakura.


And, look at how Nasu explained why Sakura never ask Rin for help: It is because she feels shame about her Matou magecraft. Well, I don't know if Nasu trying to use Kohaku's method again " she is insane already, and has a strange logic in her mind.".

[TheSkipRow]

Honestly I just can't get my head around Tokiomi. I see different interpretations everywhere and I just wonder if I'm wrong or he's just too vague of a character. You see people saying he would take back Sakura if he knew about the worms, others say he would only care if he knew that Zouken isn't actually training her, others say he couldn't care less regardless. It doesn't help that Nasu and Urobuchi can't make up their minds about him.

On the Nasu topic, I used to not care about his sex scenes and so on. Like I could excuse the fact that Sakura needs sex to live... but nowadays I wonder why did he have to write her needing sex to live? Her background is horrifying enough already without having to be raped by Shinji and presumably Byakuya as well for most of her life. The story doesn't lose anything of value if Shinji wasn't an actual rapist rather than a wannabe one. It's even worse because I got into Tsukihime before Fate, and Kohaku already had a horrifying background, so my first impression of Sakura was that Nasu was trying to one-up himself.

[forumghost]

By the way, back on the shiro and shinji topic, shiro at least knows shinji is capable to hit sakura, but he stil is...too chill about it for someone wuth such hero complex ? I mean, this girl is not related to you or even in your class but she keeps coming to your home, you know her brother is capable to hit her, you dont have have any idea of worm gramps or that they are not actually blood sibilings, wich kinda makes wakame look even worse, but you dont even go.."girl, is something wrog at your home, could you let me in? " Even in HF and after met zouken he does not really o beyond until shit really hit the fan .

Shirou just doesn't think it's as bad as it was, and thinks that Shinji learned his lesson after Shirou kicked his ass. There's a scene at the start of the game where he sees a bruise on Sakura's hand (actually the early signs of a CS) and declares that Shinji hasn't gotten tired of being hit yet.

[yokushi]

Honestly I just can't get my head around Tokiomi. I see different interpretations everywhere and I just wonder if I'm wrong or he's just too vague of a character. You see people saying he would take back Sakura if he knew about the worms, others say he would only care if he knew that Zouken isn't actually training her, others say he couldn't care less regardless. It doesn't help that Nasu and Urobuchi can't make up their minds about him.

I think Tokiomi as he is represented in the Fate/Zero novel is pretty clear as a character. The problem started with the anime literally only showing the front side of his whole character and people latched onto that. Same with Kariya.

[forumghost]

Exp:
Do anyone wonder why:
- Kariya never tried to tell Aoi about the worms, when he actually knows about it. He keeps silent just because Aoi said " you shouldn't complain anymore.".
- Why Kariya doesn't go to Tohsaka and tell both Aoi and Tokiomi what is happening with their daughter? It is his best chance to create the conflict between Aoi-Tokiomi. We can easily know what Tokiomi is thinking, and Aoi loves her daughter or her husband.

Because Kariya wrongfully assumes that Tokiomi knows, rightfully guesses that he wouldn't care, and is (though he wouldn't admit it) far more interested in killing Tokiomi as revenge for 'stealing' Aoi then he ever was in saving Sakura.

both Gen and Nasu are too ambitious when trying to force Sakura' tragedy to happen, while trying to explain Tokiomi is a " good guy", and everything just a "misunderstanding".


yeah. He send his daughter away, to the dangerous vampire ( even he sees Zouken is awful.) with just his beautiful imagination. And, even he feels has something wrong with his decision, he tried his best to " help" the tragedy to happen:
- Refuse to ask " the traitor" Kariya about the Matou's method.

Yeah, because Tokiomi thinks that Kariya is cowardly scum that only returned because he wanted the Grail. One of Tokiomi's defining character flaws is that he's really bad at judging people.
He misjudged Zouken. He misjudged Kirei, and he misjudged Kariya

- Refuse to use Assassin to spy on what is happening.

Again, this ties back to him being a really bad judge of character and trusting the wrong people. Why would he be spying on someone that he thinks is above board? This is a consistent character flaw with him.

- Banned Rin to get close to Sakura.

Cutting off the birth family following an adoption isn't exactly abnormal, even in the normal world, you know.

And, look at how Nasu explained why Sakura never ask Rin for help: It is because she feels shame about her Matou magecraft. Well, I don't know if Nasu trying to use Kohaku's method again " she is insane already, and has a strange logic in her mind.".

I mean, who could imagine that a girl that had been physically, emotionally, and psychologically destroyed since age four would have developed a sense of learned helplessness?

I think Tokiomi as he is represented in the Fate/Zero novel is pretty clear as a character. The problem started with the anime literally only showing the front side of his whole character and people latched onto that. Same with Kariya.

I mean you aren't wrong. The fact that the Anime never gives us the chance to peek into Kariya's head means that a bunch of the audience doesn't realise that he's not a White Knight, he's an Incel

[TheSeaDragon]

Shirou just doesn't think it's as bad as it was, and thinks that Shinji learned his lesson after Shirou kicked his ass. There's a scene at the start of the game where he sees a bruise on Sakura's hand (actually the early signs of a CS) and declares that Shinji hasn't gotten tired of being hit yet.

Makes sense , i guess

But waht i meant is, he was friends with shinji and he practically lives with Sakura, he is not curious about the matou house ? Apparently he tought they lived alone, not very common for two high school students

[forumghost]

Makes sense , i guess

But waht i meant is, he was friends with shinji and he practically lives with Sakura, he is not curious about the matou house ? Apparently he tought they lived alone, not very common for two high school students

You don't watch a lot of Anime, do you?

[TomPen94]

I think Shirou probably did have a moment when he was ready to just waltz into the Matou house and confront Shinji, but he was stopped by Sakura. And since then he does get annoyed when he sees signs of the abuse but keeps it down.

[TheSeaDragon]

You don't watch a lot of Anime, do you?

actually, i dont, lol. I watched the more mainstream stuff, you name it, Dragon Bal, Sailor moon, Saint Seiya where my username cames from, and some years ago i got into type moon, just lately im triying to get into more anime and manga, but i will take your word

[Menwearpink]

1) Nobody forced anything between Shinji and Sakura but Shinji, who did it because he wanted to get off on the fact that by submitting to it, he held power over her. Zouken didn't give two shits either way.

Eh, there's a bit of subtext that implies some stuff in Heavens Feel but the main point is that the Matou household is not a fun place for anyone.

Also to be fair to Tokiomi, did he really misjudge Kariya?


On the topic of Kohaku I'd say it's also because Kohaku has a few more layers of secrets than Sakura I feel. Sakura's stuff is also front and center especially with BB and the Sakura Five existing now too.

With Kohaku you have the reveal that the genki girl from childhood memories was Hisui all along, the SHIKI stuff and the Synchronizer stuff.

[Comun]

Even looking only at Kohaku's mastermind reveal, there're already a lot of layers, with her actions, the fact she doesn't feel hatred, the part about Akiha's motive, and Kohaku's self-promise to stop if Shiki figured the ribbon thing out.

[forumghost]

Eh, there's a bit of subtext that implies some stuff in Heavens Feel but the main point is that the Matou household is not a fun place for anyone.

"Subtext" it's just regular text:

She pitied the air.
She apologized.
Though she never spoke the words aloud, she apologized every time she saw him.
She apologized for taking Matou Shinji's place.

"Why are you apologizing?"

She could've just ignored him.
Then he wouldn't have hated her, wouldn't have clung to hope.
Sakura apologized.
Apologizing means submitting something.
Then

"Then you're mine from now on."

Considering all the contempt he had endured, he saw nothing wrong in accepting this.

She pitied him because she was given the position he wanted, and he was neglected/unloved, so he went "well guess that's an invitation to make her a rape-slave then" (which is pretty fucked up when you realise he was like, 13 at the time)

Also to be fair to Tokiomi, did he really misjudge Kariya?

In the sense that he absolutely misunderstood his reasons for bailing on the Matous? Absolutely. He was correct about him being trash however, I'll give him that much.

[kohaku]

On the Nasu topic, I used to not care about his sex scenes and so on. Like I could excuse the fact that Sakura needs sex to live... but nowadays I wonder why did he have to write her needing sex to live? Her background is horrifying enough already without having to be raped by Shinji and presumably Byakuya as well for most of her life. The story doesn't lose anything of value if Shinji wasn't an actual rapist rather than a wannabe one. It's even worse because I got into Tsukihime before Fate, and Kohaku already had a horrifying background, so my first impression of Sakura was that Nasu was trying to one-up himself.

He Nasu tried to create the most tragic character, far more tragic than even Kohaku and Asagami.


You see how many anti-fans keep shaming Sakura as " Worm slut" and " Worm Whore", right. Yeah. That is his idea.


With a girl, especially in Asia, it is the nightmare when you can't control your slut. Everyone has the right to shaming you. Everyone has the right to rape you. You never can be considered as a human anymore, just the sex toy, a bitch under society's view. It is as terrible as the worms pit.


The idea about " the girl who is trained and can't control her slut anymore" actually is used in several Japanese and Chinese's H fictions. These girls in that situation usually considered " even she can escape these abusers, the brothel is the only where she can go to.".


--------------


But, yeah. Nasu actually doesn't use this element well in HF route. "Shinji's sexual abuse" is only used one time in the novel ( HF route).

[Menwearpink]

I mean more about Sakura doing things to Shinji aspect. There's plenty in Heavens Feel beyond the obvious. TBH might be worth sitting down to go through again sometime again for all of us. Been a while for me certanly.

Honestly with Kariya it's hard to say even say that he's a broken clock that's right once a day I Feel.

[Altima of the Gates]

Doing things to him? Nah. Shinji assumes a lot of what he thinks Sakura feels because of his delusions(i.e - she must be making fun of me, she must be stealing my friend, my crush loves her, my father paid attention to her and it totally wasn't abuse, she has strong powers and she totally isn't a lab rat, she stole it all, SAKURASAKURASAKURA scene encapsulates this)
She understands that he really valued being a magus and doesn't want to just emotionally squash him by telling him its all lies.

I think Nasu himself said that if Sakura was cruel, she would have an easier time overall in CM2. Assuming that the only way to coexist was for him to either get his shit pushed in to wake him up, 8r for her to bring him to heel, indicating that his delusion was so strong it required that amount of harshness.

[kohaku]

Because Kariya wrongfully assumes that Tokiomi knows, rightfully guesses that he wouldn't care, and is (though he wouldn't admit it) far more interested in killing Tokiomi as revenge for 'stealing' Aoi then he ever was in saving Sakura.

Kariya main idea is to take back Aoi and her family ( Rin+ Sakura) from Tokiomi. This is a good chance for him to shaming Tokiomi in front of Aoi.


And if even he is wrongfully assuming that Tokiomi knows, it is very normal for him to say something like " they rape your daughter everyday, they throw your daughter to the worms pit everyday. And you Magus think it is ok, as long as it helps her stronger?". It is strange for Kariya because he tries to hide everything when speaking.

I mean, who could imagine that a girl that had been physically, emotionally, and psychologically destroyed since age four would have developed a sense of learned helplessness?

Or it simply because Nasu doesn't even know how to explain the setting logically? So, he uses any reason, no matter how ridiculous it is?


Even if he wants to say " Sakura has some trouble with her mind and logic.", he never confirms it clearly in the novel.


It is better if he uses -combines - many other reasons. Exp:
- Sakura doesn't know how Rin feels about her. She tried to use the ribbon to remind Rin that they are sisters. But Rin doesn't have any reaction. Sakura understands that means " Rin doesn't see me as her sister anymore.".
- Rin usually follows Sakura: Sakura understands it is Tohsaka trying to spy Matou, to prepare for the next war.
- Sakura knows about Rin's position of Fuyuki. She fears that, instead saves her, Rin will kill her ( as same as day 9) because she can't control her power.
...


But finally, among many solutions, Nasu uses the most funny idea to explain the Sakura's setting.

[forumghost]

Or it simply because Nasu doesn't even know how to explain the setting logically? So, he uses any reason, no matter how ridiculous it is?


Even if he wants to say " Sakura has some trouble with her mind and logic.", he never confirms it clearly in the novel.

Sorry but I can't agree with you here, there's absolutely nothing ridiculous about Sakura not asking for help. She's been emotionally brainwashed from age 4.


You think Zouken's training was only the worms? No. It left major mental scars on her. He taught her that she was disgusting and unwanted, and that her family abandoned her in order to destroy her self-worth. He taught her that he was unbeatable, using Kariya's foolhardy attempt to rescue her as an object lesson that those who try to go against him will fail.

Sakura never went for help because Zouken made sure she believed that A) Nobody wanted to because she was unworthy of it, and B) That anyone who tried would fail.

Remember, even after she went all Dark Sakura and was a nigh-immortal demigod, she still did whatever Zouken told her to do until the last, like, half a day of Heavens Feel, and she only tried because Kirei fucked him up so bad.


Seriously, learned victimhood is a thing.

[Herod]

Kariya main idea is to take back Aoi and her family ( Rin+ Sakura) from Tokiomi. This is a good chance for him to shaming Tokiomi in front of Aoi.


And if even he is wrongfully assuming that Tokiomi knows, it is very normal for him to say something like " they rape your daughter everyday, they throw your daughter to the worms pit everyday. And you Magus think it is ok, as long as it helps her stronger?". It is strange for Kariya because he tries to hide everything when speaking.



Or it simply because Nasu doesn't even know how to explain the setting logically? So, he uses any reason, no matter how ridiculous it is?


Even if he wants to say " Sakura has some trouble with her mind and logic.", he never confirms it clearly in the novel.


It is better if he uses -combines - many other reasons. Exp:
- Sakura doesn't know how Rin feels about her. She tried to use the ribbon to remind Rin that they are sisters. But Rin doesn't have any reaction. Sakura understands that means " Rin doesn't see me as her sister anymore.".
- Rin usually follows Sakura: Sakura understands it is Tohsaka trying to spy Matou, to prepare for the next war.
- Sakura knows about Rin's position of Fuyuki. She fears that, instead saves her, Rin will kill her ( as same as day 9) because she can't control her power.
...


But finally, among many solutions, Nasu uses the most funny idea to explain the Sakura's setting.

The victim refusing to asking for help and hidjng everything is REAL LiFE stuff, It happens all the time, in paritcular when you are talking about domestic abuse, and your whole point of frankly quite offensive.

[kohaku]

The victim refusing to asking for help and hidjng everything is REAL LiFE stuff, It happens all the time, in paritcular when you are talking about domestic abuse, and your whole point of frankly quite offensive.

I mean, nothing wrong if Sakura tries to cover her situation.
But have something wrong with the way Nasu explaines her reason.

Sorry but I can't agree with you here, there's absolutely nothing ridiculous about Sakura not asking for help. She's been emotionally brainwashed from age 4.




You think Zouken's training was only the worms? No. It left major mental scars on her. He taught her that she was disgusting and unwanted, and that her family abandoned her in order to destroy her self-worth. He taught her that he was unbeatable, using Kariya's foolhardy attempt to rescue her as an object lesson that those who try to go against him will fail.


Sakura never went for help because Zouken made sure she believed that A) Nobody wanted to because she was unworthy of it, and B) That anyone who tried would fail.


Remember, even after she went all Dark Sakura and was a nigh-immortal demigod, she still did whatever Zouken told her to do until the last, like, half a day of Heavens Feel, and she only tried because Kirei fucked him up so bad.




Seriously, learned victimhood is a thing.

Have many reasons to explain why Sakura doesn't try to ask Rin for help.
Your reasons, my reasons.
I think this is very interesting point for Nasu to analyze Sakura's inward. But Nasu never really does.

[TheSeaDragon]

Sorry but I can't agree with you here, there's absolutely nothing ridiculous about Sakura not asking for help. She's been emotionally brainwashed from age 4.


You think Zouken's training was only the worms? No. It left major mental scars on her. He taught her that she was disgusting and unwanted, and that her family abandoned her in order to destroy her self-worth. He taught her that he was unbeatable, using Kariya's foolhardy attempt to rescue her as an object lesson that those who try to go against him will fail.

Sakura never went for help because Zouken made sure she believed that A) Nobody wanted to because she was unworthy of it, and B) That anyone who tried would fail.

Remember, even after she went all Dark Sakura and was a nigh-immortal demigod, she still did whatever Zouken told her to do until the last, like, half a day of Heavens Feel, and she only tried because Kirei fucked him up so bad.


Seriously, learned victimhood is a thing.

The specifics of her story are obviously not realistic, and dont need to, is a story about magic, but her behavior certanly is . Several victims of domestic abuse dont call for help because shame or other reasons