Sakura's problem: I still confuse about Magic Crest and Sealing designations.

[TheSeaDragon]

Basically this. I'd assume as she gets older and has to deal with some of the same issues that she'd see her father was less than impressive as a person and family head. As a magus, he was a little too naive, but impressively by-the-book, so I don't think Rin could fault him strictly from that view, unless of course she decides to reject that way of living, which I was always under the impression she sort of does regardless of route.

This sounds cruel, but tokiomi diying was te best for her, Kirei didnt cared and she grew to be a very human person . I know tokiomi said she could choose her way , but se would obviously look up to him and be raised like a more standard mage

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

This sounds cruel, but tokiomi diying was te best for her, Kirei didnt cared and she grew to be a very human person . I know tokiomi said she could choose her way , but se would obviously look up to him and be raised like a more standard mage

I personally think this is the case, but I was wondering if Nasu or Gen said it as well.

[Menwearpink]

As far as the whole thing of a magus passing on their stuff to their kids and pushing them to become great magi.

It's pretty similar to inheriting a dojo from your parents, or a family business, or being told to study piano or something as a kid.

Very few children want to do that when they're well, children. But it becomes a part of them, and eve sometimes their main aspiration or drive in life as they grow up. Sure it sucks for pain, but mages are mages and a mage family is all about looking to the future (children) while bringing forth the past (magecraft).

It's just a path in life. It's different from normal society, and not what most would aspire to. But I frankly don't see it as reprehensible or anything. Choosing how to maximize the talents and abilities of your children for their future is what most parents hope to do for their children. In educated or misguided ways.

[TheSeaDragon]

I just tought something, Gil pretty much give kirei the "push" in Nolan Joker words, that caused him embracing his sadism, killing toki and stagin the whole kariya and Aoi thing, wich would result in the laters brain damage and posterior death. Lookin like that, sakura makin Gil lunch is quite karmatic, lol. What if tokiomi got a loyal servant? Kirtisugu maybe would have still Kaynethd him , but Aoi would have lived,likely

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

As far as the whole thing of a magus passing on their stuff to their kids and pushing them to become great magi.

It's pretty similar to inheriting a dojo from your parents, or a family business, or being told to study piano or something as a kid.

Very few children want to do that when they're well, children. But it becomes a part of them, and eve sometimes their main aspiration or drive in life as they grow up. Sure it sucks for pain, but mages are mages and a mage family is all about looking to the future (children) while bringing forth the past (magecraft).

It's just a path in life. It's different from normal society, and not what most would aspire to. But I frankly don't see it as reprehensible or anything. Choosing how to maximize the talents and abilities of your children for their future is what most parents hope to do for their children. In educated or misguided ways.

Personally, I only find it wrong in that I find it rather wrong to uncritically pass on the weight of generations of expectations on kids before they can make their own choice as to whether they truly wish to embrace such a legacy. The magus ideal on its own isn't so bad, but in practice, since magi purposely cut off any sense of empathy for normies or for each other, it more often than not ends up as abuse, and a lot of people inside and out get hurt unnecessarily.

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I just tought something, Gil pretty much give kirei the "push" in Nolan Joker words, that caused him embracing his sadism, killing toki and stagin the whole kariya and Aoi thing, wich would result in the laters brain damage and posterior death. Lookin like that, sakura makin Gil lunch is quite karmatic, lol. What if tokiomi got a loyal servant? Kirtisugu maybe would have still Kaynethd him , but Aoi would have lived,likely

I personally think Kerry might have taken Aoi or Rin hostage, which might have ended poorly for the hostage.

Also, I'm not so sure about the karma of it all because Gil's actions had almost no bearing on Sakura's fate. Either way, Kariya was dead, and Sakura would suffer. The only thing that might have changed is that Rin would have had an actual functional mother, which would have made Tohsaka manor far less desolate and Rin maybe a tad happier.

[warellis]

This makes the Apo situation with Sakura all the more intriguing. I doubt she's the heir, but the Edelfelts seemingly raised her well, since she became another wrestling ojou and tag teams with Luvia.

I believe Nasu has mentioned that even if Sakura isn't technically an heir with the Edelfelts, Luvia would still want her to hone her abilities and talents because she would feel to not do so would be a waste.

Judging via Apo is iffy cuz we dont know what happened . Like didnt normal timeline Tohsakas steal like 1/3 of the Edelfelt crest in the war + maybe have babies together, while Apo Fion wrecked shop to the point Zouken is dead .Maybe Apo Tohsaka just ended up hitching up with the other sister or something or didnt steal the crest so Rin has to learn Kung fu root hunting rather than gems.

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normal End Sakura is still the heir to matou with its assumed protection.

Yet even so, the Edelfelts are still apparently those distant relatives of the Tohsaka so I can't imagine the same thing somehow not happening between the Edelfelts & Tohsaka like in Stay Night (as in an Edelfelt got taken in by the Tohsaka and acquiring gem magecraft and Conversion).

I personally think this is the case, but I was wondering if Nasu or Gen said it as well.

This seems to say they said it as well:
https://www.tmdict.com/en/to.tohsaka-rin

Tohsaka Tokiomi’s eldest daughter. The younger form of one of the heroines from the original story.

During Fate/Zero, Rin’s level of understanding of the “Holy Grail War” is about the same as Shirou’s was during Fate/stay night. That is, while it might seem like she knows what’s going on, she really doesn’t.

In the young Rin’s eyes, her father Tokiomi was a great magus deserving of love and respect. She did not yet understand the ruthlessness and cruelty that stemmed from that ideal. If her father had survived long enough for her to comprehend that aspect of him, it surely would have had a grave effect on her own personality. But whether she chose to rebel against that inhumanity and turn her back on sorcery itself, or chose to embrace it fully, becoming a perfect, cold-hearted magus like her father—the only certainty is that for her, happiness would be nothing more than the fleeting dream of a far off parallel world.

[Menwearpink]

Well, ultimately that happens a lot in real life with most families. If they don't like it they can walk out.

So basically you can be a Kariya.

[warellis]

Well, ultimately that happens a lot in real life with most families. If they don't like it they can walk out.

So basically you can be a Kariya.

I don't think Zouken would've allowed Sakura that option. Shinji probably had that option but chose to stay in such toxicity.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

I don't think Zouken would've allowed Sakura that option. Shinji probably had that option but chose to stay in such toxicity.

True. Shinji was desperately clinging on to the delusional hope that he too could be special, and Zouken also found him useful for slowly breaking Sakura's resolve.

In addition, I'm fairly certain Conversion was the Tohsaka specialty even before the Edelfelt Crest.

[Menwearpink]

I don't think Zouken would've allowed Sakura that option. Shinji probably had that option but chose to stay in such toxicity.

Sakura's case is a special guinea pig, yes.

That doesn't change the fact that it's an option for many others.

[TheSeaDragon]

Personally, I only find it wrong in that I find it rather wrong to uncritically pass on the weight of generations of expectations on kids before they can make their own choice as to whether they truly wish to embrace such a legacy. The magus ideal on its own isn't so bad, but in practice, since magi purposely cut off any sense of empathy for normies or for each other, it more often than not ends up as abuse, and a lot of people inside and out get hurt unnecessarily.

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I personally think Kerry might have taken Aoi or Rin hostage, which might have ended poorly for the hostage.

Also, I'm not so sure about the karma of it all because Gil's actions had almost no bearing on Sakura's fate. Either way, Kariya was dead, and Sakura would suffer. The only thing that might have changed is that Rin would have had an actual functional mother, which would have made Tohsaka manor far less desolate and Rin maybe a tad happier.

If he had that plan, wouldnt he do that in zero? all we know is he was ready to snip tokiomi but Kirei came first. Also, wasnt Aoi send away during the war but she came to te church because Kirei orchestarted all, trickin her tokiomi was there, and he was, but i mean alive, of course. I need to re watch zero

Also, aoi maybe is quite a doormat, and we didnt knew her very well besides being the "obedient wife" but we know how she felt, she hated to give sakura away, but again, obedient wife, thats why its funny when she said "are the matous happy now" ? like they kidnapped sakura or something, no honey, your husband was all for it, and you didnt said a word , maybe if you did.....but thats why i think a scenario where she lives could be interesting

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True. Shinji was desperately clinging on to the delusional hope that he too could be special, and Zouken also found him useful for slowly breaking Sakura's resolve.

In addition, I'm fairly certain Conversion was the Tohsaka specialty even before the Edelfelt Crest.

If you think about it , shnji was basically jealous he was not gettin wormed . Man, ego can make someone stupid

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

If he had that plan, wouldnt he do that in zero? all we know is he was ready to snip tokiomi but Kirei came first. Also, wasnt Aoi send away during the war but she came to te church because Kirei orchestarted all, trickin her tokiomi was there, and he was, but i mean alive, of course. I need to re watch zero

Also, aoi maybe is quite a doormat, and we didnt knew her very well besides being the "obedient wife" but we know how she felt, she hated to give sakura away, but again, obedient wife, thats why its funny when she said "are the matous happy now" ? like they kidnapped sakura or something, no honey, your husband was all for it, and you didnt said a word , maybe if you did.....but thats why i think a scenario where she lives could be interesting

The only reason Kiritsugu didn't go for Tokiomi in Zero is because he chose Kayneth as the more important target, and by the time he got around to murdering Tokiomi, his arch-nemesis Kirei already beat him to it. If he had, I'd have no doubt that he'd track down Aoi and Rin and take whichever hostage Tokiomi valued more, probably Rin.

Also, the Zero novels are pretty clear that Aoi is basically that antiquated traditional housewife who's a perfect match for the uptight magus gentleman Tokiomi. In addition, while she definitely wasn't happy to give Sakura away as a mother, she absolutely accepted it as a magus' wife. She's not even a magus, yet she already was compartmentalizing her human and mage sides like a mage should. I do agree this would be very interesting if she had lived to raise Rin once Tokiomi had died.

[TheSeaDragon]

The only reason Kiritsugu didn't go for Tokiomi in Zero is because he chose Kayneth as the more important target, and by the time he got around to murdering Tokiomi, his arch-nemesis Kirei already beat him to it. If he had, I'd have no doubt that he'd track down Aoi and Rin and take whichever hostage Tokiomi valued more, probably Rin.

Also, the Zero novels are pretty clear that Aoi is basically that antiquated traditional housewife who's a perfect match for the uptight magus gentleman Tokiomi. In addition, while she definitely wasn't happy to give Sakura away as a mother, she absolutely accepted it as a magus' wife. She's not even a magus, yet she already was compartmentalizing her human and mage sides like a mage should. I do agree this would be very interesting if she had lived to raise Rin once Tokiomi had died.

Yeah, how would she raise rin not being brain dead? But a lot of things needs to change, if gil is not around , Kirei would not turn the same we know , he still would play the part of obedient disciple of tohsaka, even is he is rottin inside

[warellis]

Didn't Tokiomi give Sakura away anyways without consulting Aoi about anything? There isn't much she could do once it was over and done I think.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

She also never expected to be consulted, and even if she was, I doubt she'd raise any objections.

[warellis]

She also never expected to be consulted, and even if she was, I doubt she'd raise any objections.

She probably would, judging from how she actually felt, but Tokiomi would probably convince her very quickly due to lacking a spine. Then again, that's a common affliction for women in Zero.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

I personally think she'd never voice her objections because of her ideas of the duty of a mage's wife.

[warellis]

I personally think she'd never voice her objections because of her ideas of the duty of a mage's wife.

You're probably right. She's not exactly the willful or adventurous type truth be told.

I remember someone in Discord reading the Zero novels called her a "bitch" for how she responded to Rin when she asked about Kotone at the dinner table:

So I'm reading the Zero LN
Aoi is a bitch
TLDR: Rin sneaks out to try and find her friend Kotone (certainly killed by Caster and Ryuunosuke by now) and the scene after Kariya finds Rin and she faints is a scene from Aoi's perspective. She read a note that talked about how Rin snuck out to try and find Kotone and she flashed back to earlier in the night when Rin mentioned her friend at dinner
Aoi's response? "Forget your friend."

[forumghost]

You're probably right. She's not exactly the willful or adventurous type truth be told.

That's a polite way of saying she's an utter and total doormat.

[SirGauoftheSquareTable]

And that's why she and Tokiomi are the perfect match. Both are relics of another era, where wives obeyed husbands without much question.

I honestly wonder how older Rin views her mom because we know she reveres Tokiomi's memory, but we have no idea how Rin's view of her mother changed as she got older and Aoi was dead for longer. She clearly loved her mom in some way as a kid, but would older Rin consider her mom a pitiful doormat, or are all of her memories composed of Aoi in her last 5 years?