Well some doormats have more of a spine than others I'd say, even in the same setting. But yes, Aoi is not one of those doormats with spine.Originally Posted by forumghost
Then again outside of Saber & Rin, practically all the free women in Zero were spineless in a way.
Like Maiya would probably have jumped off a cliff if Kiritsugu ordered her to.
Last edited by warellis; January 15th, 2021 at 12:24 AM.
To be fair, all of them had plausible reasons for being doormats. Sola kind of started as a doormat, but just one dose of the Love Spot made her go cray cray with feelings she wasn't exactly equipped to deal with.
who do you mean? Iri? I dont see Iri as a "doormat" : yeah, she was made a homunculous and most likely she didnt had a say in gettin together with kiritsugu , but it seems like she developed a true likin for him and is not just following around
Iri is kind of a doormat in that she doesn't truly understand Kiritsugu's ideal, having not really seen the world or people, but she unconditionally supports him because he seems to believe in it so much, not being able to actually challenge him where it counts or question his decisions. Her love is genuine, just incredibly naive as well.
I can see it, and yeah, she is literally a naive child, considering her short life and that she never left a castle.
Yup, and Saber's entire Arc in Zero was learning that she was dumb and stupid and wrong and should never have tried to do anything because she was useless and a failure.
so we have:
Iri: I only exist for Kerry-chan, he taught me how to live!
Maiya: I am Kiritsugu's tool, my purpose is to be used by him.
Sola: LAAANCCCEEER LOOOOOOOOVEEE MEEEE!!!!!
Aoi: An opinion? Is that something you eat?
Saber: I am a strong, proud independent... oh wait no nvm I'm a mistake that should never have happened.
Last edited by forumghost; January 15th, 2021 at 01:29 AM.
No, her arc was that she was stupid to try and unspill spilled milk. You did what you did, and you have to live with it. Btw, this is across Zero and FSN.
That's why I said her are IN FATE/ZERO was learning that she was a mistake.
Since, you know, we were talking about women in Fate/Zero. Her having a character arc of accepting that she did her best and she needs to move forward in another work is irrelevant.
Last edited by forumghost; January 15th, 2021 at 01:45 AM.
I mean, still, her attempted lesson in Zero is that she should let the past be the past, but of course she misunderstood that to mean what you said. My apologies.
TBH Irisviel is a nothing that wasn't really needed to be in Fate/Zero, and sorta exists the way she is because Urobuchi doesn't know how to do homunculi/pure dolls/sad robots as the Nasu analogy goes.
Hmm.
Can anyone explain to me what is " doormat"???? Thank you.
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Man. I maybe got another trauma again. When i remembered that Sakura just 5 years old when she lost her "first time", in the first day she went to Matou. That means it happened just several hours ( or several minutes) after she said goodbye to her family.
I mean, people usually don't remember anything before they are 3-4 years old. It just as same as you rape a baby who still doesn't understand how to write, and still doesn't know if this world is flat or sphere.
I think Nasu should rewrite her sentence in the last battle:
From:
"I quit being human…!?Of course! I haven't been treated like one for a long time."
To:
" I ever is treated as a human? I can't really remember it.I don't remember if I actually were born as a human from the beginning."
Someone is a doormat if they let others metaphorically walk all over them like a doormat. A doormat has usually no self-confidence, backbone, and has given up any agency in his/her life.
thank you.
follow that meaning, I think no one exclude Aoi can considered as doormat.
That was the basic definition. Someone like Maiya, who has no real will of her own, definitely counts. Iri also mostly goes along with Kerry's ideals despite having no frame of reference and never directly challenges him.
The main thing here is the same thing people fail to realize when scrutinizing adoption systems and such.
That's all fine and dandy that they aspire to something, but that is a heavy responsibility to bring a life into this world and shepard that life.
The main sticking point for magi is that they aspire to humanlike goals while pretending they aren't human. Which brings problems that most could see coming a mile away. Its reprehensible primarily because obviously you'll run into people who aren't okay being used as tools. For as many Rins that you get who are fine being that cog in the machine even though they get pain, they have agency, have power and are bred properly, you can have people like Sakura that eventually come back to bite you in the ass. It is a good comparison that Rin romantizes the lifestyle of a magus, while Sakura sees it more like a tool. Its why I like Sakura's character so much, in that she still pursues magecraft when for the most part it will be a hard road post HF given she has alterations done to her body, and this uncontrollable energy flowing into her, she finds her own mentor and tries to find a way of just dealing with her lot.
Yet likely she would still likely be labeled a heretic both out of envy and elitism despite having that power. So the society is twisted, there is no real need to give it a benefit of the doubt, it causes a lot of its own problems, and there would be nothing wrong in saying it was reprehensible.
While you Altima usually say you favor how Nasu writes HF route.
However, with me, I think Nasu has many things wrong when he writing this route, that I even think " someone needs to rewrite it.".
- The way Shirou thinks about Sakura ( before day 9): While Nasu doesn't need to develop the love between them - they had two years side by side already - he actually failed when trying to confirm Shirou's feeling about Sakura. One HF's anti-fan on reddit says that he feels like Shirou loves Sakura because of her beauty more than her person. Really, Nasu usually writes " she is beautiful", " her body is sexy", " I'm very difficult to calm down...".
- Nasu usually doesn't explain his idea clearly. It makes people very difficult to understand him.
Exp: Today, people still discuss what is Rin trying to say during that last battle.
- Many important points are written just in one or two sentences. Many readers will ignore it easily.
Exp: I think the ribbon can have a more important role.
- He actually failed when trying to describe Sakura. While Sakura is a strong mind character, he usually cut off every scene which can use to show her resistance. That is why although she saved Shirou many times, and resist her fate many times more, no one - even her's fans - really remember her more than " trauma collector.".
- He doesn't let Rin-Sakura talking with each other seriously until the last battle. That is why I think the last battle is very rush. They don't have enough time to talk about each other.
I actually imagine the last battle, Sakura fights against Rin while keeps give the questions and ask Rin to answer. The battle will more cool and serious more than " Rin have Jewel Sword, and Sakura now become useless."
- Zouken can have the better role: explain how he trying to mindbreak Sakura with his sentence; try to cause conflict between Rin-Sakura-Shirou. I think he can even mock Justice about how "good" she is, while her family actually very brutal against their hommuculi.
Last edited by kohaku; January 15th, 2021 at 12:13 PM.
That's the case with all Routes tbh. FSN has a lot of flaws.However, with me, I think Nasu has many things wrong when he writing this route, that I even think " someone needs to rewrite it.".
Personally I think that if Nasu sucks at writing actual attraction then him substituting it with physical attraction is an okay thing to do. I'd prefer "she's hot" as a thought that shows the character is attracted to a woman rather than doing what Kamachi does with Toaru Majutsu no Index and refuse to write any relationships whatsoever because he sucks at writing relationships.One HF's anti-fan on reddit says that he feels like Shirou loves Sakura because of her beauty more than her person. Really, Nasu usually writes " she is beautiful", " her body is sexy", " I'm very difficult to calm down...".
Also, can you link that reddit comment?
Hot take, it maybe will not happen because how a succes it already was, but FSN could use a remake
about reddir, after all tis time i can say is not the best place to talk. There is good takes, butman, there is some really bad ones, and they are not always downvoted
*shrug*
Nasu does have parts in and out of HF where Shirou does tell us why he feels the way he does about Sakura.
People mainly notice the discrepancy because he lauds Saber and Rin that much more in narrative. Plus the way he writes Shirou doesn't seem to idealize Sakura as much as the other two(he is more blunt, casual, and not nervous with her), its more of a casual relationship. Whether that be to give her the girl next door/almost osananajimi feeling, or the fact that he wanted to highlight that Sakura as a heroine that isn't idealized, or even personal bias, we may never know.
To add a bit into that, I think it's pretty obvious in HF itself that Sakura is a symbol of that normal sense of happiness Shirou slowly started to develop outside of his machine ideals driven persona. Because the main paradox of Emiya Shirou as a person is that he uncounciously latched onto Kiritsugu's ideals because he interpreted Kiritsugu's smile as "if I do the same thing this person does, I will be happy too". The reason why ideal and reality clashes in HF is because a situation happens where he has no way to compromise, he has to choose one.
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