Really? She didn't go there on her own?Originally Posted by forumghost
- - - Updated - - -
I think the best scene to understand Shinji's mentality isn't even in HF, but in UBW: after Lancer stabs him, he feels as if his arm is rotting (presumably because of Gáe Bolg's curse), and starts thinking "Well, if I'm losing an arm, everybody else needs to lose TWO arms. That's the only way to make it up to me."
Well you could also see his callousness about using the Bloodfort in Fate as another example as well.
And Zouken sent her for reconnaissance on the Emiya heir. Remember he expected Shirou to know about the Einzberns when he first met him.
I think it was in HF Normal's flashbacks she had reported the Emiya heir as harmless.
Definitely there is something to be said about trauma that is truthful. She is ashamed to express her feelings, she is apprehensive to fight to a high degree. Those are true, but there is more to it than that.
But since Nasu said in that UBW interview that if she had known about Shinji's plan for the Bloodfort, she would have stopped it. That excerpt tore apart a but of fanon that assumed Sakura would never try to stand for something (even worse, some actually said she enjoyed that Rider did those things to people).
Then there was HF where, she is basically destroying herself to help out Shirou. Medusa even tells you straight up Sakura was screwing herself over in her condition by having Rider jet the gang out of the forest to the church after the forest bit, and earlier in the route, she uses Rider against Zouken's servant (she never says it was her or even asks for a thanks) which could have cost her dearly.
Sakura has trauma yes, but her father screwed her over hard. She has no resources, and going to Rin without Shirou as a buffer has a very real chance of getting her killed by Rin not out of malice, but Rin's own sensibilities. Telling Shirou what she is will have him ask too many questions and Zouken monitors her movements. She is afraid for good reason, not just Kariya, as she has a remote detonation in the form of bugs floating in her blood and organs at all times.
And finally, logically, Zouken's familiars take away a lot of her power, she is just strong enough it doesn't prove immediately fatal. Battling Zouken without that regen would be suicide, and she implied that even with being bonded with AM, Zouken might have been able eat her brain without Kirei taking some of the familiars out of her body.
Let's not pretend that the situation isn't what it is, her father left her in the hands of a deranged archmagus, with a lot of skills in sealing and binding techniques, given HE was the one that developed the command seals. Thinking she could just fuck him up if she had a little more confidence and not a set of extreme circumstances would be foolhardy.
Last edited by Altima of the Gates; January 23rd, 2021 at 06:54 PM.
I don't think forumghost was implying that just a little more confidence could have solved her problems. Rather, he was countering kohaku's flawed assumption that Sakura's inaction was done purely in service of Nasu's plot, which is just wrong on many levels. Yeah, she's stuck in a near unwinnable situation, and asking for help in all but the most extreme circumstances is unviable, BUT she is also chained by the Madonna-Whore Complex Zouken instilled in her.
Its fair to say so, though it is true that Nasu decisions are heavily made so that the reader views her as a bystander yet at the same time shows hints to the contrary. So its hard for people to picture her fighting, so the discussion would naturally cite her trauma from the abuse, not wrongly but its manipulated to a degree, so I can see where kohaku may be coming from.
For example, when Rin and Sakura fight when Rin tells her to go home in the Fate route, they make up in relatively quick fashion after Shirou leaves the room. Given the two know each other as magi, something happened to dispel their earlier fight.
And Rin openly lies in UBW when she and Shirou talk about the Matous. We also know Rin checked Sakura for command seals, now whether that was her upfrontly asking or not wasn't explained. So my whole spiel is that things are complicated, moreso than just Sakura being traumatized by Zouken. Hell, its actually a point that Sakura herself offers to help despite her condition multiple times and is shot down for it, while simultaneously paradoxically lambasted over a lack of courage.
It was mentioned that Kohaku had layers, but I think people forget that Sakura's temperament isn't a simple, "I'm scared of Grandpa so I won't fight". Zouken offered her to take slaves if she didn't want to kill, and she refused. There are things like that which show how being in thrall to an evil magus, but not being evil yourself is hard. Her options are limited to say the least. Not necessarily a lack of will or courage, but a lack of means and tenuous allies to boot.
I almost froze when Zouken calls Sakura is his " beautiful bride".
good points
Altima. I have a question: where is the country which you from?Its fair to say so, though it is true that Nasu decisions are heavily made so that the reader views her as a bystander yet at the same time shows hints to the contrary. So its hard for people to picture her fighting, so the discussion would naturally cite her trauma from the abuse, not wrongly but its manipulated to a degree, so I can see where kohaku may be coming from.
For example, when Rin and Sakura fight when Rin tells her to go home in the Fate route, they make up in relatively quick fashion after Shirou leaves the room. Given the two know each other as magi, something happened to dispel their earlier fight.
And Rin openly lies in UBW when she and Shirou talk about the Matous. We also know Rin checked Sakura for command seals, now whether that was her upfrontly asking or not wasn't explained. So my whole spiel is that things are complicated, moreso than just Sakura being traumatized by Zouken. Hell, its actually a point that Sakura herself offers to help despite her condition multiple times and is shot down for it, while simultaneously paradoxically lambasted over a lack of courage.
It was mentioned that Kohaku had layers, but I think people forget that Sakura's temperament isn't a simple, "I'm scared of Grandpa so I won't fight". Zouken offered her to take slaves if she didn't want to kill, and she refused. There are things like that which show how being in thrall to an evil magus, but not being evil yourself is hard. Her options are limited to say the least. Not necessarily a lack of will or courage, but a lack of means and tenuous allies to boot.
Nothing important. I just suddenly have interested in it.
------------------
Follow HF, I can see Sakura actually tried to protect Shirou, Rin very many times:
- Refuse to fight HGW
- tried to kill herself in the school.
- refuse to fight against Rin during the rain night ( yeah. If Rin can kill Sakura. It is because Sakura let her do it.)
- Day 10: Sends Medusa to protect Shirou. Tries to awake from the dream.
- Day 10-12: tries to resist the shadow. If she has any hatred against Rin, the shadow would kill her already ( their bedrooms are right beside each other).
- Day 13: tries to not sleep.
- Day 13: Ready to cost her life with Zouken.
- become Dark Sakura to prevent herself from killing people.
- tries to resist the Devil and asks Rin, Shirou to flee.
Some other resistance:
- hides her really healthy situation for 13 days, until everyone discovered she is blinds already.
- Tries to stay and speak normally, even when her limb actually is cut off ( day 13).
- Defeated Shinji's abuse.
- continue to endure the pain even after day 13, and will not lost her mind until the last of day 16 ( only shows in Fate Unlimited Code).
And? Surprise. Thank to the way Nasu writes all of this, very few readers - even Sakura's fans - really remember she actually fights, save people many times like this.
A country that teaches better English grammar than yours that's for sure.
No need to be rude.
yeah. I know.A country that teaches better English grammar than yours that's for sure.
Come on now, did you really have to say that?
You on the other hand seem to come from a country that values grammar over basic manners, seeing as you came here for no reason other then to mock someone for not having mastery over what is probably a second language.
Well to get back on track now that I have some time for discussion, I am from the US, kohaku.
But yes, it is often understated the type of situation Sakura was in, since we're made by narrative design to see her as Shirou's kouhai for most of the story, but there are many blips around the other routes that tell she worked within her means.
More than a person having agency, its about whether you can upfrontly see a person's struggle that likely sets people off. That particular scene where she kinda bares all with Shirou gave really good dialogue for her feelings of magecraft and her situation, but it hardly is ever considered when people evaluate her as a character imo.
Its a fatalistic spin, but it was supposed to be a counter to the almost idealistic look Rin gives about magi and the magus life in general, which is often about pride. Rin talks a good game about children of magi not being human and having their bodies tampered with, but she had careful supervision since she was young for a purpose, and was taught early how to counteract the rejection of the crest. So you see the clear difference between an experiment and so.eone bred to lead their family..
Sakura just tells it like it is and says if she didn't endure, she'd be like Shinji's mom in the basement, no talk of pride in that, just sobering truth.
I mean, let's evaluate this war itself, Rin says that Servants are literal superweapons in the shell of men, but they have a war ina metropolitan area, and she accepts witnesses to that would be executed as a matter of course. Rin is kind, but at the same time fights merely for family honor and pride as she admits later that she wouldn't use the wish.
Sakura seems hesitant, but really, she is one of the saner peeps of the group, despite her traumas, or rather in spite of them. She tries to assuage Shinji instead of jackbooting him, she doesn't immediately go to Rin because she knows how that is likely to turn out(so its not just fear instilled by Kariya's death). Its an interesting situation, as she has really good reasons not to want to get involved at all, the bigger question would be why to even allow this confrontation on your land to begin with if you care about people.
Last edited by Altima of the Gates; January 30th, 2021 at 07:34 AM.
Regarding of Tokiomi about how much he know about Zouken. Here some example.
Tokiomi knew the Makiri had a completely different agenda and was ignorant of their actual goals, but still believed they'd raise Sakura to be a magus that would seek Akasha for some reason, even when he knew previously that they abandoned that for "worldly desires" that he himself seemed to scornMatou Zouken--
>The man before him was the mastermind behind the Matou family, a presence known but never seen. Kotomine Kirei’s senses couldn’t help but go on the alert.
>There was a small, short figure that had deliberately chosen to stand in a dark corner of the night street, a place that bright lights could not illuminate. Contrary to his shriveled and aged appearance, this man was an extremely dangerous entity; Tokiomi had told Kirei this time after time. Although he had publicly declared that he was retired and no longer cared for the businesses of the outside world, he was an abnormality that covertly used the secret arts of magecraft to prolong his life and rule over the Matou house for generations. In a way, he was far more dangerous than the actual Master of the family, Kariya. This old man was someone who required special attention.
HF VN version.Reaching 'Akasha'. There is no greater purpose than this to us Tōsaka. But, sadly, the Einsberns and Matōs, who once shared the same motive, have lost track of it to more worldly matters, and have now totally forgotten their original intention. I won't even mention how they have invited four Masters from the outside, as well. They want the Grail for their despicable lust and nothing else."
Tokiomi how old is Zouken.
Tokiomi very aware Zouken will use Sakura as Experiment. Both of them willingly become monster to archive their dream
"Experiment. It's just an experiment, heir to Emiya.
This experiment is merely a stepping stone to the next. My plan was to slowly change her to something like a Holy Grail over several decades.
It was supposed to be an experiment of Makiri's Holy Grail which lives as a human but still has the function to collect souls."
"Sakura is an experiment…?"
To give a daughter to the Matou family means giving us a foundation to achieve our goal. Tohsaka is well aware of that. We both have the same goals. We will both turn ourselves into monsters to achieve immortality."
"Immortality…?
You and Tohsaka's father used Sakura for something ridiculous like that…!?"
"Of course. The Holy Grail War has always been a ritual dedicated to that end. That is the only reason we cooperated, and I am the only one who still lives. To use the Matou successor to achieve our goal in the far future."
Last edited by Triple accel 555; January 30th, 2021 at 04:28 PM.
To be fair, Tokiomi thought that since Zouken was old and dying, he'd be desperate to pass on his magecraft to a talented mage child as opposed to using her as simply a test subject/modified Grail. Also, Zouken is the least reliable narrator we have. Nothing he says is 100% true.
What Zouken said; "To give a daughter to the Matou family means giving us a foundation to achieve our goal. Tohsaka is well aware of that. We both have the same goals. We will both turn ourselves into monsters to achieve immortality." Among other things.
You can argue that Zouken misunderstood Tokiomi, but nothing Tokiomi said implies otherwise. And Urobuchi's interview backs it up. Tokiomi will not supported Zouken method about using Sakura as vessel but he don't care about her suffering.
Tokiomi don't care about Shinji raping Sakura because for him that thing is part of magus training.
TMF : Did Tokiomi know what Sakura was going through after she was adopted by MATŌ?
U : What is important for Tokiomi is not filiation but magical progression in his family. So he is aware of literally throwing away (abandoning) his daughter. One can imagine that Tokiomi tells himself that, through his darling daughter, he will come to have superior thaumaturgical powers.
[Off interview]
Tokiomi knew that Sakura was going to suffer, but for him, it would allow him to become a real mage. As long as it increased the thaumaturgical potential of his family, he had no problem with Sakura's treatments at MATŌ. However, if he had known Sakura's fate, to be a vessel for Zōken, he would have refused. He also imagined that if things went too far, Sakura could stop Zōken by herself. Unconsciously, even if he never said it, the fight between Sakura and Rin at the end of Heaven's Feel was for him the best thing that could happen to TŌSAKA. Aoi, on the other hand, knew nothing.Disagree.Also, Zouken is the least reliable narrator we have. Nothing he says is 100% true
Zouken is honest regarding Sakura situation. He told Shirou about Sakura is not responsibility about her killing people. The one who kill people is Holy Grail.That thing want born Into the world with borrowed Sakura's sealed id to complete itself.
He is similar to Kirei. Both of them manipulator but giving honest answers for their benefits
Last edited by Triple accel 555; January 30th, 2021 at 05:16 PM.
Except for the part of Zero where he directly states otherwise, both to Kariya's questioning, and in his own internal monologue, you mean?
So yeah, Tokiomi wanted Sakura to be a big success Magus, and not be a human experiment, the text lays this all out in Black and White.
Actually he would care about that, specifically because it's not part of Magus training, and is just Shinji being a dickbag for petty reasons. Him being willing to accept suffering in exchange for results is not the same as "lol whatever I don't even care".And Urobuchi's interview backs it up. Tokiomi will not supported Zouken method about using Sakura as vessel but he don't care about her suffering.
Tokiomi don't care about Shinji raping Sakura because for him that thing is part of magus training.
Zouken also lied. A lot. And what he didn't lie about, he twisted, because his original plan was to use Shirou to push Sakura into snapping, rather then Shinji being the one (which was just Zouken getting lucky really).Disagree.
Zouken is honest regarding Sakura situation. He told Shirou about Sakura is not responsibility about her killing people.
Zouken told Shirou the one who kill people is Holy Grail.That thing want born Into the world with borrowed Sakura's sealed id to complete itself.
To be clear, Tokiomi is still a Shitlord and a Bad Dad. Just, he's not Zouken-level like people seem to want to portray him.
Last edited by forumghost; January 30th, 2021 at 05:20 PM.
[QUOTE=forumghost;3107085.
To be clear, Tokiomi is still a Shitlord and a Bad Dad. Just, he's not Zouken-level like people seem to want to portray him.[/QUOTE]
I agree about that. However you forget about something.
If you think Tokiomi still care about Sakura after she get adoption by Matou I wonder what your opinion about Rin ? She knows there something wrong with Sakura but choose not to helping her. Keep in mind Rin is more good person than Tokiomi but in same time she is horrible big sister.
Rin already know Sakura is always depressed and only close to Shirou.
Sakura was sent away to be the heir to the Matou family. Rin did not recognize her as a practicing mage, despite her talent. Sakura's hair, and eye color changed. Sakura was very depressed in school, and she acted in a way that depressed/abused people often act. Shinji beat her in an obvious enough way, that he got into a fight with the man Sakura was in love with. Rin was close enough to Sakura to know who she was in love with (despite ostensibly never having a proper conversation after she became a Matou), and she was regularly in the archery club room. Plus, her relationship with Shinji could imply that she knows that Shinji is not nice to Sakura.
Rin just followed Daddy's orders as you saw in Zero and Fate and feebly stalked her when she couldn't take doing that. Ironically, she behaved like her mother did and just never questioned the patriarch's decision, even after he was dead.
In short, Rin had more than enough evidence that something was going on. And she herself said that she was being willfully ignorant.
How Rin reaction about Sakura ? Rather than help her she choose to kill her. Geas and MoS ending is some of example.
I can see Tokiomi will choose same thing as Rin. He will declare Sakura as heretic and choose to kill her too.
Rin is a teenager that grew up in her own messed up home, even if it wasn't as bad as the Matou's (Kirei is not a good parental figure).
She didn't so much 'know and chose not to help' as she ignored the signs because she didn't want to believe they were real. She was a child trying to live up to an idealised image of who and what she thought she should be, and suppressing who she actually wanted to be. Her realising this and moving past it was the crux of her arc in Heavens Feel.
Her stubbornness and pride in trying to fit the ideal that her father outlined for her can lead her down some potentially dark paths (kinda like Shirou in Mind of Steel) but honestly she lets herself get dissuaded pretty easily when it comes to Sakura.
Like, looking back, a lot of the conflict between them in HF is Rin trying to look out for her but being all Tsundere Bitch about it and pissing Sakura off. Then she explains to Shirou her real concerns and motives afterwards and it's like, fucking hell Rin, tell Sakura that shit, not Shirou!
Well honestly, its partially Shirou too, but that may be Nasu's narrative bias running(can't tell if its like for Rin, or trying to write Shirou's attraction to Rin into his personality). Plus as I said before, Rin's natural personality is to be competitive, so she is confrontational even when she knows its better not to be. In that though, Shirou had multiple chances to bridge that gap, but just doesn't because....reasons? Could be Nasu's inclinations, or what he would write for Shirou's inclinations.
Like Shirou is immensely sharp and has witty banter inside his head sometimes, but here, it was "whoa, she is such a good big sister" right after he said she needed to cool off and understand she isn't helping. Its awkward as fuck, since he tells Sakura to go out on a limb and use the olive branch, but half-asses it when talking to Rin. Finish what you start sword boy.
Sakura has quite a lot of awkward people around her lol. So its good her empathy and ability to bounce back is so high, because good god. I mean count the times she basically has to explain how someone close to her isn't as bad upfront as they seem and it's a lot. Add onto her flaw of being overly fatalistic and assuming things too often, with basically a tsundere senpai, tsundere sister, hostile brother, and a servant that loves her but thinks its natural to act like a robotic sentinel. Its a recipe for disaster.
Last edited by Altima of the Gates; January 31st, 2021 at 07:14 AM.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
