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Thread: Sakura's problem: I still confuse about Magic Crest and Sealing designations.

  1. #321
    闇色の六王権 The Dark Six SpoonyViking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    2) Shinji had nothing to do with Sakura getting close to Shirou, and was in fact pissed off about it (seriously, Shinji has more then a little bit of a man-crush on Shirou). Zouken was the one that sent her over there, because he wanted someone to spy on the son of Kiritsugu.
    Really? She didn't go there on her own?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
    Doing things to him? Nah. Shinji assumes a lot of what he thinks Sakura feels because of his delusions(i.e - she must be making fun of me, she must be stealing my friend, my crush loves her, my father paid attention to her and it totally wasn't abuse, she has strong powers and she totally isn't a lab rat, she stole it all, SAKURASAKURASAKURA scene encapsulates this)
    I think the best scene to understand Shinji's mentality isn't even in HF, but in UBW: after Lancer stabs him, he feels as if his arm is rotting (presumably because of Gáe Bolg's curse), and starts thinking "Well, if I'm losing an arm, everybody else needs to lose TWO arms. That's the only way to make it up to me."
    My fanfics:
    The Gift (F/SN): The last duel between Cú Chulainn and Scáthach.
    Passion Acknowledged (F/SN): Shinji X Shirou lemon
    He Was a Good King (F/SN): Was Beowulf a good king?
    A Fairy Tale of Love and Death (F/SN): A meeting between Scáthach and King Hassan.
    Palingenetic Descension (Tsukihime): The origin of the Tohno family's hybrid nature.

  2. #322
    全力後輩 - Zenryoku Kohai Altima of the Gates's Avatar
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    Well you could also see his callousness about using the Bloodfort in Fate as another example as well.

    And Zouken sent her for reconnaissance on the Emiya heir. Remember he expected Shirou to know about the Einzberns when he first met him.
    I think it was in HF Normal's flashbacks she had reported the Emiya heir as harmless.

    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    Sorry but I can't agree with you here, there's absolutely nothing ridiculous about Sakura not asking for help. She's been emotionally brainwashed from age 4.


    You think Zouken's training was only the worms? No. It left major mental scars on her. He taught her that she was disgusting and unwanted, and that her family abandoned her in order to destroy her self-worth. He taught her that he was unbeatable, using Kariya's foolhardy attempt to rescue her as an object lesson that those who try to go against him will fail.

    Sakura never went for help because Zouken made sure she believed that A) Nobody wanted to because she was unworthy of it, and B) That anyone who tried would fail.

    Remember, even after she went all Dark Sakura and was a nigh-immortal demigod, she still did whatever Zouken told her to do until the last, like, half a day of Heavens Feel, and she only tried because Kirei fucked him up so bad.


    Seriously, learned victimhood is a thing.
    Definitely there is something to be said about trauma that is truthful. She is ashamed to express her feelings, she is apprehensive to fight to a high degree. Those are true, but there is more to it than that.
    But since Nasu said in that UBW interview that if she had known about Shinji's plan for the Bloodfort, she would have stopped it. That excerpt tore apart a but of fanon that assumed Sakura would never try to stand for something (even worse, some actually said she enjoyed that Rider did those things to people).
    Then there was HF where, she is basically destroying herself to help out Shirou. Medusa even tells you straight up Sakura was screwing herself over in her condition by having Rider jet the gang out of the forest to the church after the forest bit, and earlier in the route, she uses Rider against Zouken's servant (she never says it was her or even asks for a thanks) which could have cost her dearly.
    Sakura has trauma yes, but her father screwed her over hard. She has no resources, and going to Rin without Shirou as a buffer has a very real chance of getting her killed by Rin not out of malice, but Rin's own sensibilities. Telling Shirou what she is will have him ask too many questions and Zouken monitors her movements. She is afraid for good reason, not just Kariya, as she has a remote detonation in the form of bugs floating in her blood and organs at all times.
    And finally, logically, Zouken's familiars take away a lot of her power, she is just strong enough it doesn't prove immediately fatal. Battling Zouken without that regen would be suicide, and she implied that even with being bonded with AM, Zouken might have been able eat her brain without Kirei taking some of the familiars out of her body.
    Let's not pretend that the situation isn't what it is, her father left her in the hands of a deranged archmagus, with a lot of skills in sealing and binding techniques, given HE was the one that developed the command seals. Thinking she could just fuck him up if she had a little more confidence and not a set of extreme circumstances would be foolhardy.
    Last edited by Altima of the Gates; January 23rd, 2021 at 06:54 PM.

  3. #323
    Knight of Joestar SirGauoftheSquareTable's Avatar
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    I don't think forumghost was implying that just a little more confidence could have solved her problems. Rather, he was countering kohaku's flawed assumption that Sakura's inaction was done purely in service of Nasu's plot, which is just wrong on many levels. Yeah, she's stuck in a near unwinnable situation, and asking for help in all but the most extreme circumstances is unviable, BUT she is also chained by the Madonna-Whore Complex Zouken instilled in her.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deathhappens View Post
    Really, all 3 of the romances in F/SN are 'for want of a nail' kind of situations.
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost View Post
    You mean because Shirou winds up falling for the first of the three that he Nailed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tobias View Post
    I speak for the majority of important people* *a category comprised entirely of myself

  4. #324
    全力後輩 - Zenryoku Kohai Altima of the Gates's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirGauoftheSquareTable View Post
    I don't think forumghost was implying that just a little more confidence could have solved her problems. Rather, he was countering kohaku's flawed assumption that Sakura's inaction was done purely in service of Nasu's plot, which is just wrong on many levels. Yeah, she's stuck in a near unwinnable situation, and asking for help in all but the most extreme circumstances is unviable, BUT she is also chained by the Madonna-Whore Complex Zouken instilled in her.
    Its fair to say so, though it is true that Nasu decisions are heavily made so that the reader views her as a bystander yet at the same time shows hints to the contrary. So its hard for people to picture her fighting, so the discussion would naturally cite her trauma from the abuse, not wrongly but its manipulated to a degree, so I can see where kohaku may be coming from.
    For example, when Rin and Sakura fight when Rin tells her to go home in the Fate route, they make up in relatively quick fashion after Shirou leaves the room. Given the two know each other as magi, something happened to dispel their earlier fight.
    And Rin openly lies in UBW when she and Shirou talk about the Matous. We also know Rin checked Sakura for command seals, now whether that was her upfrontly asking or not wasn't explained. So my whole spiel is that things are complicated, moreso than just Sakura being traumatized by Zouken. Hell, its actually a point that Sakura herself offers to help despite her condition multiple times and is shot down for it, while simultaneously paradoxically lambasted over a lack of courage.
    It was mentioned that Kohaku had layers, but I think people forget that Sakura's temperament isn't a simple, "I'm scared of Grandpa so I won't fight". Zouken offered her to take slaves if she didn't want to kill, and she refused. There are things like that which show how being in thrall to an evil magus, but not being evil yourself is hard. Her options are limited to say the least. Not necessarily a lack of will or courage, but a lack of means and tenuous allies to boot.

  5. #325
    吸血鬼 Vampire kohaku's Avatar
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    I almost froze when Zouken calls Sakura is his " beautiful bride".

  6. #326
    死徒二十七祖 The Twenty Seven Dead Apostle Ancestors TheSeaDragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
    Its fair to say so, though it is true that Nasu decisions are heavily made so that the reader views her as a bystander yet at the same time shows hints to the contrary. So its hard for people to picture her fighting, so the discussion would naturally cite her trauma from the abuse, not wrongly but its manipulated to a degree, so I can see where kohaku may be coming from.
    For example, when Rin and Sakura fight when Rin tells her to go home in the Fate route, they make up in relatively quick fashion after Shirou leaves the room. Given the two know each other as magi, something happened to dispel their earlier fight.
    And Rin openly lies in UBW when she and Shirou talk about the Matous. We also know Rin checked Sakura for command seals, now whether that was her upfrontly asking or not wasn't explained. So my whole spiel is that things are complicated, moreso than just Sakura being traumatized by Zouken. Hell, its actually a point that Sakura herself offers to help despite her condition multiple times and is shot down for it, while simultaneously paradoxically lambasted over a lack of courage.
    It was mentioned that Kohaku had layers, but I think people forget that Sakura's temperament isn't a simple, "I'm scared of Grandpa so I won't fight". Zouken offered her to take slaves if she didn't want to kill, and she refused. There are things like that which show how being in thrall to an evil magus, but not being evil yourself is hard. Her options are limited to say the least. Not necessarily a lack of will or courage, but a lack of means and tenuous allies to boot.


    good points

  7. #327
    吸血鬼 Vampire kohaku's Avatar
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    Its fair to say so, though it is true that Nasu decisions are heavily made so that the reader views her as a bystander yet at the same time shows hints to the contrary. So its hard for people to picture her fighting, so the discussion would naturally cite her trauma from the abuse, not wrongly but its manipulated to a degree, so I can see where kohaku may be coming from.
    For example, when Rin and Sakura fight when Rin tells her to go home in the Fate route, they make up in relatively quick fashion after Shirou leaves the room. Given the two know each other as magi, something happened to dispel their earlier fight.
    And Rin openly lies in UBW when she and Shirou talk about the Matous. We also know Rin checked Sakura for command seals, now whether that was her upfrontly asking or not wasn't explained. So my whole spiel is that things are complicated, moreso than just Sakura being traumatized by Zouken. Hell, its actually a point that Sakura herself offers to help despite her condition multiple times and is shot down for it, while simultaneously paradoxically lambasted over a lack of courage.
    It was mentioned that Kohaku had layers, but I think people forget that Sakura's temperament isn't a simple, "I'm scared of Grandpa so I won't fight". Zouken offered her to take slaves if she didn't want to kill, and she refused. There are things like that which show how being in thrall to an evil magus, but not being evil yourself is hard. Her options are limited to say the least. Not necessarily a lack of will or courage, but a lack of means and tenuous allies to boot.
    Altima. I have a question: where is the country which you from?
    Nothing important. I just suddenly have interested in it.


    ------------------


    Follow HF, I can see Sakura actually tried to protect Shirou, Rin very many times:
    - Refuse to fight HGW
    - tried to kill herself in the school.
    - refuse to fight against Rin during the rain night ( yeah. If Rin can kill Sakura. It is because Sakura let her do it.)
    - Day 10: Sends Medusa to protect Shirou. Tries to awake from the dream.
    - Day 10-12: tries to resist the shadow. If she has any hatred against Rin, the shadow would kill her already ( their bedrooms are right beside each other).
    - Day 13: tries to not sleep.
    - Day 13: Ready to cost her life with Zouken.
    - become Dark Sakura to prevent herself from killing people.
    - tries to resist the Devil and asks Rin, Shirou to flee.


    Some other resistance:
    - hides her really healthy situation for 13 days, until everyone discovered she is blinds already.
    - Tries to stay and speak normally, even when her limb actually is cut off ( day 13).
    - Defeated Shinji's abuse.
    - continue to endure the pain even after day 13, and will not lost her mind until the last of day 16 ( only shows in Fate Unlimited Code).


    And? Surprise. Thank to the way Nasu writes all of this, very few readers - even Sakura's fans - really remember she actually fights, save people many times like this.

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